|
BoldNinja
|
 |
March 25, 2016, 01:58:18 PM |
|
Let me just make a few general comments and observations.
Lots of people are talking about becoming delegates. This is good.
Many of these are saying (in one way or another), "Vote for me and I will give you a cut of the rewards" or "I won't vote for anybody that doesn't give me a cut of forging rewards". This is bad.
The first job of a Lisk Active Delegate is SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN. Not make money for themselves. Not make money for others. SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN.
Hi, Mal! What if we cooperate to SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN and more. We could make reward from delegates more useful for Lisk ecosystem donating them for "DAPP Contest" ran by us and all who will be inspired and joined to us. I would like to see something like "Delegates Rewards for Dapps Developing" cooperation. https://forum.lisk.io/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111&p=322#p322I am struck with irony about how this delegate conversation is going. Max set up the DPoSWFR (Delegated Proof of Stake With Forging Rewards) system in Lisk for only one reason: offer people rewards and they will be motivated to set up nodes! Now more and more people are saying they want to set up nodes so they can give the rewards away! To a pool of voters! To a Dapp contest reward! Sooner or later it will be to a charity....or did I already see that? How is DPoSWFR a motivator to run a node if everybody gives the reward away? If so many people are so willing to run a node with no personal reward, I say again that Lisk would be better off with NO forging rewards and instead rely on 101 unpaid volunteers to secure the Lisk blockchain. Volunteer unpaid nodes would avoid a whole lot of jealousy that's coming like a thunderstorm on the horizon. When Lisk hits $10 each like Ethereum, running a node is going to be worth $300K+ per year for Active Delegates and $0 per year for Standby Delegates.... amanai, if you're going to give your node reward away, a "Dapp contest" is a very worthy cause to support. True that. I personally have no intention of giving away the reward if ever I were to be voted as an active delegate, as I myself am a DApp developer and have big usage for the forging rewards like testing, promotion and compensation for myself as well.. Instead of giving part of the reward I can always just donate from my own pocket whenever an event comes up regarding DApp Development Apart from that I can also give advice to other DApp Developers and join other teams, and of course recruit people for my team as well! BTW, Lin is not China, there are still good Chinese out there I completely agree with MalReynolds that sharing reward with voters is simply buing the votes and It doesn't add any VALUE to the project. On the other hand putting your hard work to develop and promote LIsk and projects beeing build on it is adding VALUE. Considering a potential reward $300K+ its clear that just setting up a node on 5$ Vultr it not enough what delegate should do and most likely won't be enough to stay in 101 unless he will pay the voters keep him there. I hope the competition between delegates will be directed to active promotion and we gonna win our votes by posting our specific plans how to do so and later what we already done. I think it will be handy if each of us have a one topic on Lisk forum where will be updating his activity. In my opinion proper promotion beside hard work needs funds behind and we as delegates gonna have lots of them. The potential revard $300K+ per year or is just ridiculously high. Of course I would be happy to keep it all, but I also would be happy to have half that sum and additionally satisfaction that I'v done something for the project by popularizing it in my country. I is still a very nice piece of pie to keep me well motivated, and I even think that keeping all the revard Is a bit unethical to Lisk, considering how big oportunity it gave to us it we should be gratefull and support the project. Thats why Im going to REINVEST a part of the revard (if I'm gonna be voted) in LIsk promotion, the details will be posted on lisk forum. I also think that the gap between position 101 and 102 will create jealous, only hoping that it will create a drive in them to top 101 by doing something for Lisk and showing it here. Considering such a HiGH revard per active delegate maybe in future we would need to incerase the amount of Active delegates since there is only specific amount of work and time a one person can sucrafice for the project. Unless the delegates will hire people, at some point, the revard might be to big and ufair to the rest of comunity. Maybe 200 or 300 active delegates could do even better job than 100 and it decerase the revard gap between Active and standby delegates, however it would be harder to follow everyone and decide who is actually a doer and shoud earn your vote. To decerase the gap between active and standby delegates we could for example change the way how the blocks are generated increasing the likehood a specific delegate will be drawn proportionally to the voting power he received. This way active delegates at the end of the list would earn smaller revards. However it might cause that the rich is getting richer effect and its very likely that the pools (the ones who paying for votes) will be on top of the list which means more money for passive people instead active. Anyone who is not buing votes and plan to do something serious to promote/develop Lisk can coun't on my vote. I trully belive that reinvesting part of revard will actually make delegates more wealthy, since it incerase the price of Lisk indirectly in the long run. Just my two cents  Grajson I agree with you as well - just sitting, buying votes with rewards and collecting forged coins won't bring much value in the long run - I think the best thing a delegate can do is use portion of forged coins and market the coin even delegates could work together someone is better at marketing, someone at finding developers, ... if we look a few years ahead for Lisk what can we do is a healthy community that is not just here for the profits, but for something that will add value to end-users of DAPPs, ... |
|
|
|
|
sussex
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:01:25 PM |
|
Just my two cents Grajson There is also the issue of cabals forming among the delegates, hindering progress. Just look at the problems a small group of big miners are causing BTC. I'm only putting this out as a mental exercise, I have no idea if it would work or if it would be possible to implement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SortitionPotential delegates could put themselves up for the vote, anyone getting a predefined proportion of the vote gets entered into a pool and successful delegates are chosen from this pool by lottery. Lottery to be held at predefined time intervals. Don't flame me, just trying to think outside the box. |
|
|
|
|
nuevo
Member
 Offline
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:07:38 PM |
|
I am also thinking of running a node for Lisk. Will I get any votes from you guys?
I already know of a few that I will vote for for sure like Mal, banana....
you got my vote I will also be running a node for LISK. Can I count on your vote friends? |
LISK Develop Decentralized Applications & Sidechains in JavaScript with Lisk!
|
|
|
|
Romanknickl
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:10:00 PM |
|
One of the important things to be sucessful with LISK is the community! , Do-it-yourself!! The responsibility is in your hand! Hello, I am not a proffesional programmer, but i know how we can promote LISK with a professional (SEO)search engine optimization For the proffessional programmer:-Please make a video about Altcoins/BTC/ETH on youtube(The 10 best altcoins for 2016), say that LISK is the best one, and say exaxtly why. -Open a new Discussion about the best altcoins(Say that you are a professional programmer and that you are experienced)  -Add Lisk in Wikipedia(its very good for the (SEO) For the SEO:The video discription and Title from the video is very important, the discription should have many Keywords and should be long(about 400 words). Give Youtube as many Information as you can:location,... Make in the discription Links from all important (message) boards about Lisk. Write Lisk vs Ethereum or BTC , we use the Keyword Ethereum or BTC for us. Write a Article about Lisk and sent the article to a huge BTC-Blog. For the normal skilled users:-Commend -Follow -Like -visite often different blogs about Lisk -Open a new Discussion on sides like https://bitcointalk.org about Lisk with the Topic ( I have invested in Lisk, what do you think about?, anything about Lisk) -Link the Lisk HP and massanger boards often in your comments -Make a Facebook Fanpage about Lisk with many Keywords(Write other Facebook pages about BTC or Altcoins and post there) We have to link every fucking Video and good blog, then Google will rank Lisk forward! If a person is searching Lisk on Google our good Videos and Blogs are there Good LUCK i hope we are the best Community! And for all : Please don't distract the LISK Bosses with useless Things! |
|
|
|
|
|
ottobene
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:17:36 PM |
|
I have a question: Do I understand correctly, that the vote be made on https://login.lisk.io/delegates page? Each registered delegate has a constant number on this page? |
|
|
|
|
digitron
Member
Offline
Activity: 108
Merit: 10
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:20:24 PM |
|
I'm getting a little worried by all the brandnew accounts asking to become active delegates.
There seem to be lots and lots of them all Very experienced in crypto for years only now got around to BCT.
You do have a point there. Voting for delegates is a lot about trust, and I will surely look at the BCT history of the people I vote for. Accounts that have been registered in the last few weeks only, are off limits. We have to assume they are either brand new to crypto, or have something to hide. lol, you do realize you have less history than most people here. My account is about a month old You shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. You'll never know what kind of adventure you'll miss out on. 2 years of history is probably about average here I'd say. I do realize I wasn't Mr Chatterbox during that time  . If you don't have much more than the cover of the book, this amounts to much. |
|
|
|
|
Vega
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:34:35 PM |
|
If you don't have much more than the cover of the book, this amounts to much.
Well then that would not be a book would it. It's a book but can't read the pages (and don't wanna touch it) because there are suspicious sticky stuff all over them. Nice metaphor for the internet. |
|
|
|
|
LiskCryptoFan
Member
Offline
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:40:21 PM |
|
There's been a lot of questions about DPOS on in this thread. I was on today's weekly Mumble discussion with Bitshares and the community has invited Lisk supporters to visit and ask questions. They've been through all the ups and downs with DPOS as the creators, I believe there is value in some of the potential delegates joining them next week and ask away. It's run by the creator of BitShares, Bytemaster, every Friday at 10:00pm EST. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22053.0.htmlSlowly building up my twitter @LiskCrypto_Fan and messaging all the crypto and tech accounts with Lisk news. I also took the list of publications posted earlier in the thread and emailed those companies. |
|
|
|
|
CroDam
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:42:01 PM |
|
I know that my account has noob status on this forum but I didnt post so much. I use it for read and learn. Didn't needed post count for signature rewards  Anyway you can see my account creation date. Also you can read something about me and my desire to be Lisk delegate: https://forum.lisk.io/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=125Thx one more time |
|
|
|
|
djselery
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1001
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:56:46 PM |
|
I am also thinking of running a node for Lisk. Will I get any votes from you guys?
I already know of a few that I will vote for for sure like Mal, banana....
Thinking about it or acctually doing? i don't vote for wishy washy. i vote for 100% dedication and up time |
|
|
|
|
|
ottobene
|
|
March 25, 2016, 02:59:21 PM
Last edit: March 25, 2016, 08:40:53 PM by ottobene |
|
I present to you my candidacy as a delegate.
Interested cryptocurrency from far 2010, when the first time I heard about Bitcoin.
I have a positive reputation on bitcointalk.org by the end of 2013.
I was a one of leading member of EMC2 (Einsteinium) community in 2014.
I would like to get support from you and become a delegate, place a node on a Digital Ocean.
My name is in the list of delegates is the same as here: ottobene. No. 350 on the candidate list.
I'm going to spend big part of forged coin on LISK community, and dedicate all my available time to evolution of the project.
We can win this!
|
|
|
|
|
grajson
Member
Offline
Activity: 100
Merit: 11
|
|
March 25, 2016, 03:05:34 PM |
|
Just my two cents Grajson There is also the issue of cabals forming among the delegates, hindering progress. Just look at the problems a small group of big miners are causing BTC. I'm only putting this out as a mental exercise, I have no idea if it would work or if it would be possible to implement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SortitionPotential delegates could put themselves up for the vote, anyone getting a predefined proportion of the vote gets entered into a pool and successful delegates are chosen from this pool by lottery. Lottery to be held at predefined time intervals. Don't flame me, just trying to think outside the box. True the cabals might be the problem here as well What do you mean saying predefined proportion? Is it when we would have the system that everyone who gets for example 0.5% votes and above is included into the Lottery where can win a place in a 101? That for sure would spread the revard more evenly and its might be really gdod idea, on the other hand it probably will be much easier to get those Votes not neceserily because you are good delegate and not sure if it will solve the cabals problem. As in real life there is no perfect solution same here we gonna have to face some problems whatever system we choose. |
|
|
|
grajson
Member
Offline
Activity: 100
Merit: 11
|
|
March 25, 2016, 03:19:55 PM |
|
Let me just make a few general comments and observations.
Lots of people are talking about becoming delegates. This is good.
Many of these are saying (in one way or another), "Vote for me and I will give you a cut of the rewards" or "I won't vote for anybody that doesn't give me a cut of forging rewards". This is bad.
The first job of a Lisk Active Delegate is SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN. Not make money for themselves. Not make money for others. SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN.
Hi, Mal! What if we cooperate to SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN and more. We could make reward from delegates more useful for Lisk ecosystem donating them for "DAPP Contest" ran by us and all who will be inspired and joined to us. I would like to see something like "Delegates Rewards for Dapps Developing" cooperation. https://forum.lisk.io/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111&p=322#p322I am struck with irony about how this delegate conversation is going. Max set up the DPoSWFR (Delegated Proof of Stake With Forging Rewards) system in Lisk for only one reason: offer people rewards and they will be motivated to set up nodes! Now more and more people are saying they want to set up nodes so they can give the rewards away! To a pool of voters! To a Dapp contest reward! Sooner or later it will be to a charity....or did I already see that? How is DPoSWFR a motivator to run a node if everybody gives the reward away? If so many people are so willing to run a node with no personal reward, I say again that Lisk would be better off with NO forging rewards and instead rely on 101 unpaid volunteers to secure the Lisk blockchain. Volunteer unpaid nodes would avoid a whole lot of jealousy that's coming like a thunderstorm on the horizon. When Lisk hits $10 each like Ethereum, running a node is going to be worth $300K+ per year for Active Delegates and $0 per year for Standby Delegates.... amanai, if you're going to give your node reward away, a "Dapp contest" is a very worthy cause to support. True that. I personally have no intention of giving away the reward if ever I were to be voted as an active delegate, as I myself am a DApp developer and have big usage for the forging rewards like testing, promotion and compensation for myself as well.. Instead of giving part of the reward I can always just donate from my own pocket whenever an event comes up regarding DApp Development Apart from that I can also give advice to other DApp Developers and join other teams, and of course recruit people for my team as well! BTW, Lin is not China, there are still good Chinese out there I completely agree with MalReynolds that sharing reward with voters is simply buing the votes and It doesn't add any VALUE to the project. On the other hand putting your hard work to develop and promote LIsk and projects beeing build on it is adding VALUE. Considering a potential reward $300K+ its clear that just setting up a node on 5$ Vultr it not enough what delegate should do and most likely won't be enough to stay in 101 unless he will pay the voters keep him there. I hope the competition between delegates will be directed to active promotion and we gonna win our votes by posting our specific plans how to do so and later what we already done. I think it will be handy if each of us have a one topic on Lisk forum where will be updating his activity. In my opinion proper promotion beside hard work needs funds behind and we as delegates gonna have lots of them. The potential revard $300K+ per year or is just ridiculously high. Of course I would be happy to keep it all, but I also would be happy to have half that sum and additionally satisfaction that I'v done something for the project by popularizing it in my country. I is still a very nice piece of pie to keep me well motivated, and I even think that keeping all the revard Is a bit unethical to Lisk, considering how big oportunity it gave to us it we should be gratefull and support the project. Thats why Im going to REINVEST a part of the revard (if I'm gonna be voted) in LIsk promotion, the details will be posted on lisk forum. I also think that the gap between position 101 and 102 will create jealous, only hoping that it will create a drive in them to top 101 by doing something for Lisk and showing it here. Considering such a HiGH revard per active delegate maybe in future we would need to incerase the amount of Active delegates since there is only specific amount of work and time a one person can sucrafice for the project. Unless the delegates will hire people, at some point, the revard might be to big and ufair to the rest of comunity. Maybe 200 or 300 active delegates could do even better job than 100 and it decerase the revard gap between Active and standby delegates, however it would be harder to follow everyone and decide who is actually a doer and shoud earn your vote. To decerase the gap between active and standby delegates we could for example change the way how the blocks are generated increasing the likehood a specific delegate will be drawn proportionally to the voting power he received. This way active delegates at the end of the list would earn smaller revards. However it might cause that the rich is getting richer effect and its very likely that the pools (the ones who paying for votes) will be on top of the list which means more money for passive people instead active. Anyone who is not buing votes and plan to do something serious to promote/develop Lisk can coun't on my vote. I trully belive that reinvesting part of revard will actually make delegates more wealthy, since it incerase the price of Lisk indirectly in the long run. Just my two cents Grajson I agree with you as well - just sitting, buying votes with rewards and collecting forged coins won't bring much value in the long run - I think the best thing a delegate can do is use portion of forged coins and market the coin even delegates could work together someone is better at marketing, someone at finding developers, ... if we look a few years ahead for Lisk what can we do is a healthy community that is not just here for the profits, but for something that will add value to end-users of DAPPs, ... Good point , any ideas how to show the benefits of developing and using dapps over apps. I know that devs are paing like 30% of their profits for the appstore and google play, dapps store is free of this charge so thats one thing. The second is that with Lisk there is no restriction to the content of the dapp, how about porn industry?  What's the benefits for end-users? I know that they will come from specific dapps that are not available from tradidtional technology , but maybe there are some general benefits.. |
|
|
|
|
sussex
|
|
March 25, 2016, 03:21:24 PM
Last edit: March 25, 2016, 03:31:34 PM by sussex |
|
True the cabals might be the problem here as well
What do you mean saying predefined proportion? Is it when we would have the system that everyone who gets for example 0.5% votes and above is included into the Lottery where can win a place in a 101? That for sure would spread the revard more evenly and its might be really gdod idea, on the other hand it probably will be much easier to get those Votes not neceserily because you are good delegate and not sure if it will solve the cabals problem.
As in real life there is no perfect solution same here we gonna have to face some problems whatever system we choose.
If you wanted a pool of 500 potential delegates, you would just take the top 500 vote winners. It would mitigate the problem of organised abuse of the system for three reasons: 1) The chances of a group of already organised potential delegates all being picked at the same time is remote. 2) An enforced "downtime" after spending a period as an actual delegate would also reduce the chance of someone organising something untoward. 3) It would cost more for large stakeholders to attempt organisation. Any downsides? I'm not sure I can think of one, but I'm sure others will. It seems to me that it would be using the benefits of both voting and lottery. |
|
|
|
|
|
someonesomeone
|
|
March 25, 2016, 03:49:35 PM |
|
SEO for which keywords? SEO is not the answer here... Marketing is the answer. One of the important things to be sucessful with LISK is the community! , Do-it-yourself!! The responsibility is in your hand! Hello, I am not a proffesional programmer, but i know how we can promote LISK with a professional (SEO)search engine optimization For the proffessional programmer:-Please make a video about Altcoins/BTC/ETH on youtube(The 10 best altcoins for 2016), say that LISK is the best one, and say exaxtly why. -Open a new Discussion about the best altcoins(Say that you are a professional programmer and that you are experienced) -Add Lisk in Wikipedia(its very good for the (SEO) For the SEO:The video discription and Title from the video is very important, the discription should have many Keywords and should be long(about 400 words). Give Youtube as many Information as you can:location,... Make in the discription Links from all important (message) boards about Lisk. Write Lisk vs Ethereum or BTC , we use the Keyword Ethereum or BTC for us. Write a Article about Lisk and sent the article to a huge BTC-Blog. For the normal skilled users:-Commend -Follow -Like -visite often different blogs about Lisk -Open a new Discussion on sides like https://bitcointalk.org about Lisk with the Topic ( I have invested in Lisk, what do you think about?, anything about Lisk) -Link the Lisk HP and massanger boards often in your comments -Make a Facebook Fanpage about Lisk with many Keywords(Write other Facebook pages about BTC or Altcoins and post there) We have to link every fucking Video and good blog, then Google will rank Lisk forward! If a person is searching Lisk on Google our good Videos and Blogs are there Good LUCK i hope we are the best Community! And for all : Please don't distract the LISK Bosses with useless Things! |
|
|
|
|
|
sussex
|
|
March 25, 2016, 03:53:37 PM |
|
SEO for which keywords? SEO is not the answer here... Marketing is the answer.
To be fair, he's right about Wikipedia. |
|
|
|
|
digitron
Member
Offline
Activity: 108
Merit: 10
|
|
March 25, 2016, 03:57:57 PM |
|
If you wanted a pool of 500 potential delegates, you would just take the top 500 vote winners.
It would mitigate the problem of organised abuse of the system for three reasons:
1) The chances of a group of already organised potential delegates all being picked at the same time is remote.
2) An enforced "downtime" after spending a period as an actual delegate would also reduce the chance of someone organising something untoward.
3) It would cost more for large stakeholders to attempt organisation.
Any downsides? I'm not sure I can think of one, but I'm sure others will.
It seems to me that it would be using the benefits of both voting and lottery.
The risk of organized abuse will be high, whatever system is in place, as long as being delegate provides a VERY substantial income, as it seems to be now. |
|
|
|
grajson
Member
Offline
Activity: 100
Merit: 11
|
|
March 25, 2016, 04:12:52 PM |
|
True the cabals might be the problem here as well
What do you mean saying predefined proportion? Is it when we would have the system that everyone who gets for example 0.5% votes and above is included into the Lottery where can win a place in a 101? That for sure would spread the revard more evenly and its might be really gdod idea, on the other hand it probably will be much easier to get those Votes not neceserily because you are good delegate and not sure if it will solve the cabals problem.
As in real life there is no perfect solution same here we gonna have to face some problems whatever system we choose.
If you wanted a pool of 500 potential delegates, you would just take the top 500 vote winners. It would mitigate the problem of organised abuse of the system for three reasons: 1) The chances of a group of already organised potential delegates all being picked at the same time is remote. 2) An enforced "downtime" after spending a period as an actual delegate would also reduce the chance of someone organising something untoward. 3) It would cost more for large stakeholders to attempt organisation. Any downsides? I'm not sure I can think of one, but I'm sure others will. It seems to me that it would be using the benefits of both voting and lottery. Yeah it really seems to be great idea. It's interesting what Max and Olivier gonna think about it and if its possible to implement. |
|
|
|
TheRedHawk
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 59
Merit: 0
|
|
March 25, 2016, 04:16:00 PM |
|
MalReynolds... Your post about being a delegate made me think a lot. The wise man is not afraid to admit when he is wrong. And I think that the share of 30% of my delegate earnings between the majors voters is an error. I will update my statement in Lisk forum. It's better to use 100% instead of 60% of funds to pay myself and my team of JS coders. Then, we could update our project status every month in our Lisk community, as a proof of actual work in the dapp development As many of you said, it will create more value to the community in the near future. This way will be better TRH |
|
|
|
|
|
someonesomeone
|
|
March 25, 2016, 04:24:53 PM |
|
From a marketing point of view it is, yes, from an SEO point of view it is just one pebble in the sea... SEO has a fine line between actually helping a website or destroying its search engine presence so to encourage people who probably have zero SEO knowledge to do SEO could result in shooting yourself in the foot. And here is wouldn't even be helpful... Should we optimize for Lisk? That doesn't help SEO for which keywords? SEO is not the answer here... Marketing is the answer.
To be fair, he's right about Wikipedia. |
|
|
|
|
|
