.

[Pardo]

gyverlb
Look at my post. Our brains are connected my man! You must be very smart...

[crazyates]

I encourage all of you - please see how things develop over the next couple of days before you make your refund.

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1034.msg3051#msg3051

By not giving out refunds at this time, it sounds like Tom is forcing people to wait a few days and hear him out before every single order abandons ship.

[miter_myles]

I encourage all of you - please see how things develop over the next couple of days before you make your refund.

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1034.msg3051#msg3051

By not giving out refunds at this time, it sounds like Tom is forcing people to wait a few days and hear him out before every single order abandons ship.

He is going through some knee-jerk decisions and reactions after coming out of his hang-over the other night maybe (hopefully) realizing how much damage he has done.

He is in absolutely no position to lag/hold refunds while he tries to prove he isn't a complete incompetent businessman.. that loaf was pinched off already.. time to flush.. 

[gyverlb]

I encourage all of you - please see how things develop over the next couple of days before you make your refund.

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1034.msg3051#msg3051

By not giving out refunds at this time, it sounds like Tom is forcing people to wait a few days and hear him out before every single order abandons ship.

Everybody running around screaming scam/ripoff/... to the top of their lungs. One question though: what's the longest one customer waited for a refund from BTCFPGA? If it's less than a week, I'm not even slightly worried: as people said a CB refund takes 5 days at the minimum.

[MichaelBliss]

"How can you expect the same amount of BTC back   You are an idiot!!! You will get back the amount of BTC at CURRENT blah blah woof woof"

I am an idiot for expecting back what I gave him?   If I paid him 10 potatoes, I would expect 10 potatoes back.

If you are given the 10 potatoes you paid with you would have 10 rotten potatoes...

Seriously, you bought some $USD worth of ASICs with Bitcoins, you'll get the same $USD worth with Bitcoins. If the Bicoin price had plummeted I assume you wouldn't want the same amount of Bitcoins but their $USD worth. I can understand you are pissed at the delays but it doesn't give you a magical right to be protected from the BTC/USD volatility.
At the moment you pre-ordered you converted your Bitcoins in $USD the same way you would have if you used a foreign currency, simple as that.

If the price *did* go down to 4USD, I bet I *would* be getting BTC back, not $ right?   Actually, at the moment I ordered, I purchased the BTC from an exchange with my $. I wanted to try bitcoin,and support it rather than a cc company.  Had I not made that purchase, I would have otherwise held those bitcoins, as I am planning to do with them now.  That's the truth.  I never converted anything into USD, I'm in Canada actually, and I converted CAD to BTC at ~ 11CAD per 1 BTC (now it's about $13.60 I think).   In any case, to the guy calling me an idiot, and to all the people saying "I will be paid blah blah blah":  if Tom doesn't pay up, I assume you will right?  Otherwise you wouldn't be talking right?

If I'm pissed about anything, it's not "the delays", it's that I'm so stupid to believe in this guy Tom for so long when he was obviously lying about a variety of stuff, and completely the opposite of what anyone would call "transparent" (I actually believe in this more than exchange rates etc, so stop making assumptions about what pisses people off).  Incidentally, I've also asked for a refund for my sc upgade from BFL, I still hope both will refund - now - and I can rest easy.   

[gyverlb]

"How can you expect the same amount of BTC back   You are an idiot!!! You will get back the amount of BTC at CURRENT blah blah woof woof"

I am an idiot for expecting back what I gave him?   If I paid him 10 potatoes, I would expect 10 potatoes back.

If you are given the 10 potatoes you paid with you would have 10 rotten potatoes...

Seriously, you bought some $USD worth of ASICs with Bitcoins, you'll get the same $USD worth with Bitcoins. If the Bicoin price had plummeted I assume you wouldn't want the same amount of Bitcoins but their $USD worth. I can understand you are pissed at the delays but it doesn't give you a magical right to be protected from the BTC/USD volatility.
At the moment you pre-ordered you converted your Bitcoins in $USD the same way you would have if you used a foreign currency, simple as that.

If the price *did* go down to 4USD, I bet I *would* be getting BTC back, not $ right?

The rule is always the same: you buy something valued in USD, your refund is in USD. If you can't wrap your mind around this simple fact, maybe you should limit your purchase to local merchants or established businesses. You purchased from a one-man company on a high risk field (nobody even has publicly demonstrated an hashing ASIC today) and complain because your refund isn't in the money you dreamed it would be?

If it did matter to you, I assume you asked before you purchased? Why are you surprised then?

These ASICs mishaps will have one positive effect: at least people purchasing mining equipment telling themselves fairy tales will look a get rich quick scheme elsewhere.

[MichaelBliss]

"How can you expect the same amount of BTC back   You are an idiot!!! You will get back the amount of BTC at CURRENT blah blah woof woof"

I am an idiot for expecting back what I gave him?   If I paid him 10 potatoes, I would expect 10 potatoes back.

If you are given the 10 potatoes you paid with you would have 10 rotten potatoes...

Seriously, you bought some $USD worth of ASICs with Bitcoins, you'll get the same $USD worth with Bitcoins. If the Bicoin price had plummeted I assume you wouldn't want the same amount of Bitcoins but their $USD worth. I can understand you are pissed at the delays but it doesn't give you a magical right to be protected from the BTC/USD volatility.
At the moment you pre-ordered you converted your Bitcoins in $USD the same way you would have if you used a foreign currency, simple as that.

If the price *did* go down to 4USD, I bet I *would* be getting BTC back, not $ right?

The rule is always the same: you buy something valued in USD, your refund is in USD. If you can't wrap your mind around this simple fact, maybe you should limit your purchase to local merchants or established businesses. You purchased from a one-man company on a high risk field (nobody even has publicly demonstrated an hashing ASIC today) and complain because your refund isn't in the money you dreamed it would be?

If it did matter to you, I assume you asked before you purchased? Why are you surprised then?

These ASICs mishaps will have one positive effect: at least people purchasing mining equipment telling themselves fairy tales will look a get rich quick scheme elsewhere.

Some of you make so many (wrong) assumptions.  Look, I'd like the btc I sent them, it's really none of your business is it?  Why should you even have an opinion.  Also, you assume they'll pay me anything, one again will you put your money where your mouth is and come up with the USD equivalent you insist I'll get if Tom doesn't?  No? Then STFU.

[gyverlb]

Some of you make so many (wrong) assumptions.  Look, I'd like the btc I sent them, it's really none of your business is it?

As a matter of fact it is. I pre-ordered 2 bASIC1 and didn't ask a refund because I know enough about the background here to still trust Tom.
If Tom gave refund in the original amount of BTC while he was paid in USD he would give more than he got and would lose money. If BTCFPGA lose too much money it might not be able to maintain enough funds to reach ASIC delivery.

So your childish attitude is a threat to my investment. Don't be surprised if I have an opinion...

By the way, by your logic, would you refund my purchase if your actions set a trend where everyone would be reimbursed the same amount of BTC they paid and that leads to BTCFPGA's bankruptcy?

[Unacceptable]

"How can you expect the same amount of BTC back   You are an idiot!!! You will get back the amount of BTC at CURRENT blah blah woof woof"

I am an idiot for expecting back what I gave him?   If I paid him 10 potatoes, I would expect 10 potatoes back.   I understand your "logic" of the price being fixed to USD etc, I might even agree with this *IF* this was a legit company and I was asking for a refund for some random reason.. That is not what is happening!!!  Put yourself in my shoes maybe.. If I was given some commodity from you, say an ounce of gold from you, for some purpose, then 6 months later you caught up to me and discovered everything I had promised was b.s. and lies and demanded your ounce of gold back, would you be cool w/ me checking the spot rate for gold, to discover gold has gone up a lot actually, so you won't get 1 ounce back but maybe 20% less?  Would that be fair?  The scammer gets the profit? Is that what bitcoin is about?

I'm demanding my btc back because I've been lied to.  3 of those basics were to ship December, the fourth one in January. Various promises and guarantees turned out to be pure lies, so I want back what I sent him.  They were lying all along.  I was an idiot for sending my btc, perhaps, but not for demanding it back. I work hard for money, and this represents my savings, why should Tom profit further from the btc I sent him?  Do you think we'd be discussing $ equivalent if the btc price had gone down not up?

If I was selling ONLY in GOLD,yes,if there is ANY mention of US Dollars as a selling price then that price is based on DOLLARS not GOLD........& yes it is fair (market value of a COMMODITY applies to metals or BTC).

If the price of BTC went down,then & ONLY then would you make more BTC (not money).Again BTC is like a commodity.....NOT MONEY/FIAT  

BTW,Not one ASIC company sells gear in BTC only,which if they did,then yes you may have a leg to stand on,but they don't.....so deal with it...................

& NOT one ASIC company RECIEVED ANY BTC,it was converted to dollars ASAP to pay them,so none of them have made a bitcent on anyone...........Unless they run with the money  

We ALL work hard for our money,you are not alone in this  

[poon-TANG]

If you think that those requests are coming...wait until BFL announces the next delay.

That will be a cluster storm.

@ Tom

You did the right thing. You went back to being the person we knew. So even if you couldn't handle the pressure (which I understand) you did the best you could. You are basically a one man company. BFL has like 5 people doing just the CS work. You just had you until Dave came along. (And you still did CS work even after that).

I wish you the best in your next BitCoin endeavor and may your product still give the competitors a bad nights sleep as they try to out compete you when the new Benefactors do take over the production and management of that work you toiled endlessly on.

You have my respect sir!

please wipe your mouth after the swallow......

We don't all suck the reps "TANG" you tool. Not everyone is like you. Now go back into your closet role.

Ouch did I get too close to the truth and now your all butt hurt? That's soo funny. HAHAHAHA

[MichaelBliss]

Some of you make so many (wrong) assumptions.  Look, I'd like the btc I sent them, it's really none of your business is it?

As a matter of fact it is. I pre-ordered 2 bASIC1 and didn't ask a refund because I know enough about the background here to still trust Tom.
If Tom gave refund in the original amount of BTC while he was paid in USD he would give more than he got and would lose money. If BTCFPGA loose too much money it might not be able to maintain enough funds to reach ASIC delivery.

So your childish attitude is a threat to my investment. Don't be surprised if I have an opinion...

By the way, by your logic, would you refund my purchase if your actions set a trend where everyone would be reimbursed the same amount of BTC they paid and that leads to BTCFPGA's bankruptcy?

Your making another assumption - this time that the BTC I sent tom was converted to USD, how do you know that's the case for sure???  Are you Tom?

If your investment is actually a scam, then it's you who are in the wrong by supporting it against me! I'm only asking for the btc I gave them back.  I didn't sign up for any ASIAN benefactors or any of the rest of the craziness that's been going on!  I've been waiting since Monday for my refund btw.  If your concerned about your "investment" then go hassle tom and dave to pay back the people who are demanding their money for god's sakes.  Go after the scammer, dumbass, not the other victims of the scam.

[gyverlb]

Your making another assumption - this time that the BTC I sent tom was converted to USD, how do you know that's the case for sure???  Are you Tom?

I don't know for sure, it's just the sensible thing to do if you run a business in the US.

If your investment is actually a scam, then it's you who are in the wrong by supporting it against me!

I don't support anything. I'm just telling you that you live in a fantasy. You won't get your BTC back and you have no leg to make your claim stand on. Instead of yelling around and calling people names if you are so sure you are scammed, just go waste your time with the appropriate law enforcements or lawyer.

I'm only asking for the btc I gave them back.  I didn't sign up for any ASIAN benefactors or any of the rest of the craziness that's been going on!  I've been waiting since Monday for my refund btw.

Wow 3 days and no refund! It's the end of the world as we know it...

 If your concerned about your "investment" then go hassle tom and dave to pay back the people who are demanding their money for god's sakes.  Go after the scammer, dumbass, not the other victims of the scam.

Does this even make sense in any alternate reality anymore?
Instead of calling me names, why do you think I'm cool with my investment and you are near hysterical? Maybe I didn't put all my eggs in one high-risk venture like you did without understanding where I was going... Who's the dumbass here?

[MichaelBliss]

With bitcoin going up generally, the USD crashing generally, why do you think it's a good idea to have converted BTC into USD when it was at 11?  You mean the outcome that occurred; i.e. btc going up so trading BTC for USD would have been a bad move, wasn't the likely one?  Tom doesn't believe in bitcoin?  Wtf?

Given the circumstances, your faulty assumptions about my motives etc, your own admitted motive of protecting your investment rather than say the victims of the fraud, after all the lies and excuses and after everything you've heard out of tom lately, "dumbass" is being nice if your still supporting him on that. 

[PuertoLibre]

If you think that those requests are coming...wait until BFL announces the next delay.

That will be a cluster storm.

@ Tom

You did the right thing. You went back to being the person we knew. So even if you couldn't handle the pressure (which I understand) you did the best you could. You are basically a one man company. BFL has like 5 people doing just the CS work. You just had you until Dave came along. (And you still did CS work even after that).

I wish you the best in your next BitCoin endeavor and may your product still give the competitors a bad nights sleep as they try to out compete you when the new Benefactors do take over the production and management of that work you toiled endlessly on.

You have my respect sir!

please wipe your mouth after the swallow......

We don't all suck the reps "TANG" you tool. Not everyone is like you. Now go back into your closet role.

Ouch did I get too close to the truth and now your all butt hurt? That's soo funny. HAHAHAHA

Lame comeback....

[poon-TANG]

If you think that those requests are coming...wait until BFL announces the next delay.

That will be a cluster storm.

@ Tom

You did the right thing. You went back to being the person we knew. So even if you couldn't handle the pressure (which I understand) you did the best you could. You are basically a one man company. BFL has like 5 people doing just the CS work. You just had you until Dave came along. (And you still did CS work even after that).

I wish you the best in your next BitCoin endeavor and may your product still give the competitors a bad nights sleep as they try to out compete you when the new Benefactors do take over the production and management of that work you toiled endlessly on.

You have my respect sir!

please wipe your mouth after the swallow......

We don't all suck the reps "TANG" you tool. Not everyone is like you. Now go back into your closet role.

Ouch did I get too close to the truth and now your all butt hurt? That's soo funny. HAHAHAHA

Lame comeback....

OMG.......that's all you got?  What a hater.  HAHAHAHA

[greyhawk]

With bitcoin going up generally, the USD crashing generally, why do you think it's a good idea to have converted BTC into USD when it was at 11?  You mean the outcome that occurred; i.e. btc going up so trading BTC for USD would have been a bad move, wasn't the likely one?  Tom doesn't believe in bitcoin?  Wtf?

Again: What would an ASIC vendor want with the boatloads of BTC they would be getting? They can't sell them without crashing the economy and you can't buy anything with them either. You can't feed your family on rig exhaust dried strawberries and honey glazed nuts alone. Or at least you shouldn't.

[makomk]

I have such a bad feeling about this now, I am planning my next step.  I know my chances of getting my BTC back are slim to none, but I now wonder which law enforcement agency should I be contacting about this?

If you're in the US, I believe the next step would probably be to contact the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection with details of what exactly Tom's been up to.

[repentance]

Anyone wondering about the identity of the "new players" referred to by Tom should read this post.  I doubt there's only one party trying to get a part of the bASIC action, but this one's identified themselves as in negotiations.

ASIC development is a fast business :-) We can not wait. We need to restructure the bASIC project within days.

We will setup a new management structure, change the information policy (boost transparency), review the technology status and the financial situation.

Only after proposing and implementing changes we will have an idea about the chances of success (potential future profitability of bASIC / BTCFPGA, LLC) and the timing of the first delivery. According to what I know since yesterday the March deadline is feasible ... but we will never claim that this is the ultimate deadline :-)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133147.msg1445650#msg1445650

Off course it's one thing to throw your hat in the ring and another entirely to have the resources and the competence to rescue the project.

[greyhawk]

Oh, good, another obscure pseudocorp in Onaboatistan. That'll help.

[MeSarah]

@ MichaelBliss

I can only speak to my understand of US law and I haven't fully researched what I'm about to speak of, further it is not meant to be legal advice.

My understanding is there are consumer protection laws that require a product purchased, on a website within the US, to be shipped within a maximum of 60 days. These consumer protection laws at the least have civil sanctions and at the most criminal penalties. So when a refund is issues the most you can lose is the difference in currency value conversion of 60 days from date of purchase. It can be argued, maybe unsuccessfully, if additional purchases were made that the date for which the clock begins starts at the date of the first purchase. So at a maximum the amount refunded must be calculated at 60 days from purchase, if not shipped within 60 days, and not longer. If any funds are transferred via an electronic method (Bitcion or bank wire transfers) that are not in accordance with the 60 days from purchase calculation it would constitute wire fraud. If the funds are transferred not in accordance with the 60 days from purchase calculation via a mail system (USPS, Fedex, UPS, DHL) using a monetary instrument it would constitute mail fraud.

It is also my understanding that if an electronic device is transferred via a mail system, that requires FCC regulation compliance and the device is not in compliance with regulations, to a US customer it would constitute mail fraud. As I have stated before I am unaware that Tom has any type of incorporation that would protect himself or his employees from civil and criminal penalties.

Is Tom going to pay for Dave's criminal defense attorney and how, with your preorder funds? Is Dave willing to go to jail because Tom directed Dave to engage in felonious activity? Are the new owners going to assume the financial liability for Dave's criminal defense? Will Dave sue Tom or his company for liability if a criminal prosecution occurs? Or will the new owners just buy the intellectual property from Tom?

Dave, you might want to seek a free consultation with a criminal defense attorney. It is better to be safe than sorry. Although the damage might have already been done but you can mitigate further damage by terminating your employment with Tom.

If you want to exact your pound of flesh, one might start by filling criminal activity reports with the district attorney's office in the county where Tom resides, the New York Attorney General's office, the FBI, the FCC, the Mail Inspector General's office and your local law enforcement agencies.

Ignorance of the law is not an accepted legal defense.