.

[mezzomix]

This is irrelevant. The price of the product (to buyers, and on the material end) is USD. If Tom or BTCFPGA decided to take the risk of keeping the income in Bitcoin, that risk - and any potential gains/losses - is his.

No Luke you're wrong. It is his choice and his risk as long as he is able to deliver what we - the customers - paid. If he never delivers ASICs it's a speculation on the back of his 'customers'. If the BTC price is rising Tom wins, if the BTC price is falling we are loosing. And now it seems that all customer who paid BTC are screwed independant of the BTC price. Tom should have exchanged those funds to USD and maybe spent them to create this damn bASIC chip and not speculate on rising BTC prices!

With this new information the only acceptable choice would be a full BTC refund, a bASIC device or to let him burn like hell! The last point seems to be the most realistic one.

[Luke-Jr]

This is irrelevant. The price of the product (to buyers, and on the material end) is USD. If Tom or BTCFPGA decided to take the risk of keeping the income in Bitcoin, that risk - and any potential gains/losses - is his.

No Luke you're wrong. It is his choice and his risk as long as he is able to deliver what we - the customers - paid. If he never delivers ASICs it's a speculation on the back of his 'customers'. If the BTC price is rising Tom wins, if the BTC price is falling we are loosing. And now it seems that all customer who paid BTC are screwed independant of the BTC price. Tom should have exchanged those funds to USD and maybe spent them to create this damn bASIC chip and not speculate on rising BTC prices!

I'm assuming the credit card purchases are probably enough to cover the expenses.

With this new information the only acceptable choice would be a full BTC refund, a bASIC device or to let him burn like hell! The last point seems to be the most realistic one.

The purchase was in USD. Expecting a higher refund based on the deflation of another currency is irrational.

[fizzisist]

... we all expect bitcoin will more likely go up, than down don't we?

No, no one knows what will happen to BTC tomorrow. Past history is not an indication of future performance.

When you paid for your order, you converted BTC to bASICs, and the BTC/bASIC exchange rate has changed since. So has the BTC/USD rate, although the USD/bASIC rate hasn't changed. I think that's the most reasonable way to look at it.

[dust]

So I've noticed something about the flow of the BTC refunds that did show up, which makes me think that the funds were never in fact converted to USD.

This is irrelevant. The price of the product (to buyers, and on the material end) is USD. If Tom or BTCFPGA decided to take the risk of keeping the income in Bitcoin, that risk - and any potential gains/losses - is his.

Agreed.  When you make a purchase denominated in US dollars, it is the equivalent of selling your bitcoins for USD on the spot and then paying those dollars to the vendor.  Unlike what some people on these forums believe, the price of BTC is not guaranteed to go up.  Imagine the shitstorm that would occur if BTC had fallen against the dollar and then Tom refunded people their exact BTC payments.

[senseless]

This is irrelevant. The price of the product (to buyers, and on the material end) is USD. If Tom or BTCFPGA decided to take the risk of keeping the income in Bitcoin, that risk - and any potential gains/losses - is his.

No Luke you're wrong. It is his choice and his risk as long as he is able to deliver what we - the customers - paid. If he never delivers ASICs it's a speculation on the back of his 'customers'. If the BTC price is rising Tom wins, if the BTC price is falling we are loosing. And now it seems that all customer who paid BTC are screwed independant of the BTC price. Tom should have exchanged those funds to USD and maybe spent them to create this damn bASIC chip and not speculate on rising BTC prices!

With this new information the only acceptable choice would be a full BTC refund, a bASIC device or to let him burn like hell! The last point seems to be the most realistic one.

This whole argument is kind of moot since people aren't getting refunds at all.

Should have received a refund last week. Requested a refund on Jan 6.

[Sitarow]

So I've noticed something about the flow of the BTC refunds that did show up, which makes me think that the funds were never in fact converted to USD.

This is irrelevant. The price of the product (to buyers, and on the material end) is USD. If Tom or BTCFPGA decided to take the risk of keeping the income in Bitcoin, that risk - and any potential gains/losses - is his.

Agreed.  When you make a purchase denominated in US dollars, it is the equivalent of selling your bitcoins for USD on the spot and then paying those dollars to the vendor.  Unlike what some people on these forums believe, the price of BTC is not guaranteed to go up.  Imagine the shitstorm that would occur if BTC had fallen against the dollar and then Tom refunded people their exact BTC payments.

Avalon made it perfectly clear that when we placed our order it would be as if we were selling our BTC for USD at the price that the order was placed.

[Luke-Jr]

So I've noticed something about the flow of the BTC refunds that did show up, which makes me think that the funds were never in fact converted to USD.

This is irrelevant. The price of the product (to buyers, and on the material end) is USD. If Tom or BTCFPGA decided to take the risk of keeping the income in Bitcoin, that risk - and any potential gains/losses - is his.

Agreed.  When you make a purchase denominated in US dollars, it is the equivalent of selling your bitcoins for USD on the spot and then paying those dollars to the vendor.  Unlike what some people on these forums believe, the price of BTC is not guaranteed to go up.  Imagine the shitstorm that would occur if BTC had fallen against the dollar and then Tom refunded people their exact BTC payments.

Avalon made it perfectly clear that when we placed our order it would be as if we were selling our BTC for USD at the price that the order was placed.

That's the default assumption for any site/sale that only shows prices in USD.

[nathanrees19]

This whole argument is kind of moot since people aren't getting refunds at all.

Should have received a refund last week. Requested a refund on Jan 6.

Several members of this forum have reportedly received refunds already.

[MichaelBliss]

Something that really matters is if bASIC was a scam or not. If it's a scam people should demand exactly what sent and it's a bit twisted arguing that the scammer should reap the rewards to the detriment of his victims.  All those arguments presuppose an actual business - hell I've heard people call Tom "an ASIC vendor" and somewhere else compare bASIC to SanDisk.  SanDisk isn't lying and stealing. Or nowhere to be found, and presumed on the run..

Doesn't fraud matter?

[dust]

Good news from Dave on the bASIC forums:

Tom tells me we've paid out well over $200k in refunds from the bank account and $100k in BTC refunds - and they will continue.  Tom has paid me up on my recent invoice as well.  He continues to demonstrate that he is committed to working this out and taking care of the customers with the same integrity he shown in the past.

I'm hopeful that we will reach a tentative agreement early in the week, with a more formal deal signed by end of week.  More to come...

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1041.msg3096#msg3096

[becoin]

That's the default assumption for any site/sale that only shows prices in USD.

No. If there is a statement that they accept payment in bitcoins and they quote a price in bitcoins! If customers select the bitcoin payment option then they are offered a price in bitcoins. So, in case of a refund they must get back the same amount in bitcon they have originally paid.

[nathanrees19]

That's the default assumption for any site/sale that only shows prices in USD.

No. If there is a statement that they accept payment in bitcoins and they quote a price in bitcoins! If customers select the bitcoin payment option then they are offered a price in bitcoins. So, in case of a refund they must get back the same amount in bitcon they have originally paid.

I'm seeing only USD prices. Any BTC price is clearly generated based on current market rates.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

That's the default assumption for any site/sale that only shows prices in USD.

No. If there is a statement that they accept payment in bitcoins and they quote a price in bitcoins! If customers select the bitcoin payment option then they are offered a price in bitcoins. So, in case of a refund they must get back the same amount in bitcon they have originally paid.

-Product was paid for with BTC.
-BTC were not converted to fiat and keep in one wallet.
-Refunds for those who paid with BTC are now getting lesser BTC back.
-Somebody is doing the calculations.
-Who? and Why?

If I were to start some fictitious entity that sold pre-orders for some product, and accepted and amassed Bitcoin, with the hope of bitcoins to increase in value, this is the way I would do it. After a period of time, whether the price goes up or down, I fold. If it goes down, I'm out very little and time when I return all bitcoins. If it goes up, I return the dollar amount, thus pocketing the profit. In this case, it's averaging about a 20% return, on how many bitcoins? The CC charges will be handled separately or I wouldn't have accepted any. If I operate as a crock, not only do I get to keep the 20% profit, but I would also not pay back all the vendors and play catch-me-if-you-can.

[Starlightbreaker]

so there are still people sticking with them until march?

[singular]

I also requested refound today. For me being paid in USD equivalent is enough but i expect him to pay back all buyers who request it.

[julz]

What email address are people using to contact Dave?

[becoin]

I'm seeing only USD prices.

I'm seeing BTC price as well. If I didn't see such a price how would I know how much BTC I had to pay YOUR COMPANY?

Any BTC price is clearly generated based on current market rates.

Market rates? As defined by BitPay? Okay, then I'll contact BitPay for such a refund! I don't care which company will refund my bitcoin payment.

[nathanrees19]

-Product was paid for with BTC.

It's like me complaining that I paid in GBP and got back less GBP because the US dollar got weaker.

-BTC were not converted to fiat and keep in one wallet.

Irrelevant. The payment is USD with live conversion, hence the refund should be USD with live conversion.

[nathanrees19]

I'm seeing only USD prices.

I'm seeing BTC price as well. If I didn't see such a price how would I know how much BTC I had to pay YOUR COMPANY?.

Screenshot?

[repentance]

Good news from Dave on the bASIC forums:

Tom tells me we've paid out well over $200k in refunds from the bank account and $100k in BTC refunds - and they will continue.  Tom has paid me up on my recent invoice as well.  He continues to demonstrate that he is committed to working this out and taking care of the customers with the same integrity he shown in the past.

I'm hopeful that we will reach a tentative agreement early in the week, with a more formal deal signed by end of week.  More to come...

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1041.msg3096#msg3096

Presumably a certain level of units need to be sold in order for the continuation of the project to be viable.  Many orders have already been cancelled and it's unlikely that anyone will place new orders until the existence of a working model can be proven.  If another vendor can prove they have working units before bASIC does, it's likely that many people will order from that vendor rather than take a chance on bASIC being able to deliver in March.

Until a potential buyer has completed their due diligence and determined that the project is viable, there really isn't any "good news".  Even then, a great deal depends on the new delivery timeline and whether or not the community has faith that the new owners are competent to take the project to completion.