.

[niko]

Luke-Jr and regular, I see your point, but I disagree. I never considered pre-ordering ASICs, simply because it didn't seem to me like BFL or bASIC had the experience and ability to give it a try without much risk. Previously delivered FPGAs were a weekend hobby compared to the scope of delivering an ASIC. This involves serious engineering, know-how, project management, accounting and customer service, outsourcing,  coding. There was no way the likes of Inaba and Sony had what it takes to deliver within a reasonable time frame. In fact, I don't do business with those sorts of characters, even if they delivered i  the past. There was no way Tom had what it takes (for different reasons). Not sure about the Avalon and BitFountain teams - at least they each seem to have a team.

[Bitinvestor]

Luke-Jr and regular, I see your point, but I disagree. I never considered pre-ordering ASICs, simply because it didn't seem to me like BFL or bASIC had the experience and ability to give it a try without much risk. Previously delivered FPGAs were a weekend hobby compared to the scope of delivering an ASIC. This involves serious engineering, know-how, project management, accounting and customer service, outsourcing,  coding. There was no way the likes of Inaba and Sony had what it takes to deliver within a reasonable time frame. In fact, I don't do business with those sorts of characters, even if they delivered i  the past. There was no way Tom had what it takes (for different reasons). Not sure about the Avalon and BitFountain teams - at least they each seem to have a team.

Ah, yes. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. Where were you when those projects got started? I don't remember you saying those things BEFORE they were obvious.

[hack_slash]

Just to add another data point, I requested a refund on the 8th, and the credit showed up on my card today.

[Luke-Jr]

Luke-Jr and regular, I see your point, but I disagree. I never considered pre-ordering ASICs, simply because it didn't seem to me like BFL or bASIC had the experience and ability to give it a try without much risk. Previously delivered FPGAs were a weekend hobby compared to the scope of delivering an ASIC. This involves serious engineering, know-how, project management, accounting and customer service, outsourcing,  coding. There was no way the likes of Inaba and Sony had what it takes to deliver within a reasonable time frame. In fact, I don't do business with those sorts of characters, even if they delivered i  the past. There was no way Tom had what it takes (for different reasons). Not sure about the Avalon and BitFountain teams - at least they each seem to have a team.

BFL is certainly more than Sonny and Josh (I can think of at least 3 other people there), and I'm pretty sure Tom outsourced the actual ASIC design, so it's not like they're any less teamwork than the others.

[MrTeal]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

[jwzguy]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

That's a bit much. According to some earlier posts, they didn't receive the BTC through a payment processor, and it wasn't converted to USD. So by refunding a smaller portion, they're profiting off of their failure to deliver the purchased products as promised. I certainly don't think anyone who wants all their BTC back is an "idiot."

[MrTeal]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

That's a bit much. According to some earlier posts, they didn't receive the BTC through a payment processor, and it wasn't converted to USD. So by refunding a smaller portion, they're profiting off of their failure to deliver the purchased products as promised. I certainly don't think anyone who wants all their BTC back is an "idiot."

Even if that was the case, they won't be profiting off their failure to deliver, they would be profiting off their choice to keep BTC as opposed to selling it, and benefiting from the appreciation of their asset in the mean time.

[jwzguy]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

That's a bit much. According to some earlier posts, they didn't receive the BTC through a payment processor, and it wasn't converted to USD. So by refunding a smaller portion, they're profiting off of their failure to deliver the purchased products as promised. I certainly don't think anyone who wants all their BTC back is an "idiot."

Even if that was the case, they won't be profiting off their failure to deliver, they would be profiting off their choice to keep BTC as opposed to selling it, and benefiting from the appreciation of their asset in the mean time.

And why should they get that profit, when the asset doesn't belong to them?

[michaelmclees]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

That's a bit much. According to some earlier posts, they didn't receive the BTC through a payment processor, and it wasn't converted to USD. So by refunding a smaller portion, they're profiting off of their failure to deliver the purchased products as promised. I certainly don't think anyone who wants all their BTC back is an "idiot."

Even if that was the case, they won't be profiting off their failure to deliver, they would be profiting off their choice to keep BTC as opposed to selling it, and benefiting from the appreciation of their asset in the mean time.

If one were a scammer, it would be a good plan.  Start a company that accepts BTC.  Depending on how the market goes, the seller will either be returning fewer BTC (the market went up and the seller gives back the $ equivalent in BTC) or returning an equal amount of BTC (the market went down and the seller just gives what he has, without profiting).  In no event does the seller give back more than he took in, and in a bull market, he gives back much less than what he took in.  I'm not saying that this is what happened... but one always needs to be vigilant.

[MrTeal]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

That's a bit much. According to some earlier posts, they didn't receive the BTC through a payment processor, and it wasn't converted to USD. So by refunding a smaller portion, they're profiting off of their failure to deliver the purchased products as promised. I certainly don't think anyone who wants all their BTC back is an "idiot."

Even if that was the case, they won't be profiting off their failure to deliver, they would be profiting off their choice to keep BTC as opposed to selling it, and benefiting from the appreciation of their asset in the mean time.

If one were a scammer, it would be a good plan.  Start a company that accepts BTC.  Depending on how the market goes, the seller will either be returning fewer BTC (the market went up and the seller gives back the $ equivalent in BTC) or returning an equal amount of BTC (the market went down and the seller just gives what he has, without profiting).  In no event does the seller give back more than he took in, and in a bull market, he gives back much less than what he took in.  I'm not saying that this is what happened... but one always needs to be vigilant.

Howso? If the price goes up, you profit. If the price does not go up, you've done nothing but waste time and money. If the price goes down, now you're screwed as you owe more than you can pay back.
All the scammer would really be doing is this case is sacrificing most of his profit potential for a 50% reduction (assuming price going up and down is equally likely) in the chance of getting caught. You might as well just take the money and bugger off.

[MichaelBliss]

And why should they get that profit, when the asset doesn't belong to them?

And that is real point.  (And why I will continue to demand my 53BTC - it's 53 not 56 as I said earlier - from Tom until I get it.

[SgtSpike]

got my chargeback today too.

Until BTC has more protection for buyers, I don't see myself ever buying any big-ticket items with them in the future.  It seems scams are just too easy.

Ah, the lost art of due diligence... You don't need "more protection" - you can protect yourself by treating bitcoins much like you treat cash. You wouldn't just go to a strange neighborhood and hand a couple of thousands of dollars to a hand sticking out from a hole in the wall, the wall having a spray-painted advertisement "will build and deliver advanced, customized, integrated circuits"...? Or would you?

Paying cash to the likes of Sony and Tom - even ngzhang and friedcat, who so far appear much more credible - based solely on the promise to develop and deliver a rather complex product.

The best way to protect yourself when paying cash and cash-like bitcoins is to do research. Get to know the project, get to know the people. Are they trustworthy? Are they competent? Are there any red flags?  Alternatively, just pay a nanny (credit card company) to take care of you: she will gladly do it for a fee. If you are smart, you won't even be paying the fee - they'll find less-then-smart customers to cover it for you.

THIS.

It's amazing how people are so willing to throw money at a company with a yet-to-be-created product and yet be unwilling to accept the risk of doing so.

I have a preorder with BFL.  If BFL were to go defunct, then that would suck.  I'd be out $2,600.  But I wouldn't be making rants about how Bitcoin needs more consumer protection, or that people shouldn't be preordering from companies who haven't yet produced a product.  I have accepted the risk that BFL might not deliver a product based on my due diligence (I found the risk of this to be very low).  If I am wrong?  I will accept the loss and move on.  It would be an investing mistake on my part.  Oops.  I'd view it the same as picking the wrong stock to invest in, or going long on Bitcoin when I should have gone short.

Because I preordered, I am willing to accept the risk that I do not get a product.  No one should preorder without being willing to accept the same risk.  Likewise, I took that risk (instead of waiting until a company actually had a product to show) because of the potential for large profit for the first few who receive the miners.  I weighed the potential for the company to go under vs the potential gain if the company didn't go under, and I decided it was a worthwhile investment.

Bitcoin doesn't need any consumer protections.  Consumers need to be willing to do due diligence research on products and companies, and accept the risk of doing business online.  Bitcoin is like cash, and consumers need to put themselves in a new mindset to understand how to properly use it without losing their money.

Now, certainly I am not trying to say that scammers should get away with it, or that we shouldn't be trying to throw them in jail (they all deserve to rot for a lifetime there); I am only saying that I think it is absurd that people didn't think things through when they first preordered from a company who didn't have anything to show for it, and are unwilling to take that risk accordingly.

[Luke-Jr]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

That's a bit much. According to some earlier posts, they didn't receive the BTC through a payment processor, and it wasn't converted to USD. So by refunding a smaller portion, they're profiting off of their failure to deliver the purchased products as promised. I certainly don't think anyone who wants all their BTC back is an "idiot."

Even if that was the case, they won't be profiting off their failure to deliver, they would be profiting off their choice to keep BTC as opposed to selling it, and benefiting from the appreciation of their asset in the mean time.

And why should they get that profit, when the asset doesn't belong to them?

But it does. You paid them with it; it's no longer yours. What kind of new insanity is this?

[jwzguy]

But it does. You paid them with it; it's no longer yours. What kind of new insanity is this?

I didn't place an order. But until they ship their orders, no, it doesn't.

[Morblias]

Why is everyone making a big deal about not getting back the same amount of BTC as they paid? That is stupid. The unit is priced in USD, not BTC. You are saying the company is profiting from bitcoins going up? Well then why the hell did you not purchase the ASIC with BTC, and buy back the amount of BTC you spent on the ASIC unit months ago? The company isn't going to take the risk of BTC prices going down. You guys are just lucky BTC prices didn't go down, because then you would be complaining saying you wanted the opposite of what you are whining about right now.

[jwzguy]

Why is everyone making a big deal about not getting back the same amount of BTC as they paid? That is stupid. The unit is priced in USD, not BTC. You are saying the company is profiting from bitcoins going up? Well then why the hell did you not purchase the ASIC with BTC, and buy back the amount of BTC you spent on the ASIC unit months ago? The company isn't going to take the risk of BTC prices going down. You guys are just lucky BTC prices didn't go down, because then you would be complaining saying you wanted the opposite of what you are whining about right now.

The company apparently DID take that risk, because they didn't cash the orders out of BTC. So they held onto all these pre-orders (some in BTC) and now the people who paid, finding out they are never going to get what they ordered, are requesting refunds. And it somehow makes sense to you that the total failures on the company's part should justify them deducting a portion equivalent to what they WOULD have lost if they had cashed out and bought back in to refund the money? Wow.

[Sitarow]

Mine also hit this morning.

BTW - For those idiots who are complaining that they should get the same # of BTC  back...
NOV 25 NOV 26 BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  Foreign Currency¯USD 2,229.98 Exchange rate¯1.023363   $2,282.08
Jan 12, 2013    BTCFPGA 3155140269 NY  2229.98 USD @ .9566       2,133.36

This is the standard for any exchange between currencies.

Is that for a credit card  refund?

[el_rlee]

I have 2 orders of total 3x 72GH/s units (1/3 which is BTC payed), which I have all requested refunds on. On the old BTCFPGA site it says my CC order is refunded but I do not have received any money in my bank account, and it's been days. And while no status change on the BTC order I also haven't received any btc back even tho Dave said on the forum that all BTC refunds were processed.

Anyone else in the same situation?

Me. Paid with CC in August, CC company says they can only do a charge back within 60 days after I get my bill - so no chance any more.
Order status on btcfpga.com says "refunded" - but nothing hit my account so far. Asked for the refund on 10th.

full refund hit my account today - just to let everybody know.
all the best to you, tom!

[mtbitcoin]

I have 2 orders of total 3x 72GH/s units (1/3 which is BTC payed), which I have all requested refunds on. On the old BTCFPGA site it says my CC order is refunded but I do not have received any money in my bank account, and it's been days. And while no status change on the BTC order I also haven't received any btc back even tho Dave said on the forum that all BTC refunds were processed.

Anyone else in the same situation?

Me. Paid with CC in August, CC company says they can only do a charge back within 60 days after I get my bill - so no chance any more.
Order status on btcfpga.com says "refunded" - but nothing hit my account so far. Asked for the refund on 10th.

full refund hit my account today - just to let everybody know.
all the best to you, tom!

It appears that those that requested for their refund in the middle of last week are getting them but the rest of us are not as lucky. No response, forum is down and locked and everyone is missing. The only reason i held on to an order was because of Dave's post asking for a "second chance" and urging us to "reconsider cancelling"... Well, that went well. 

[miter_myles]

No status change here either since my last update:

1 of 3 refunds received.

However working with chase/visa and discover there are open disputes/investigations ongoing (an d I have been credited what is owed back to me)