Proof that God exists

[af_newbie]

...nonsense...
All complexity that we see, was made by greater complexity, or else we haven't seen what made it at all. There is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence or observation to the opposite.
...more nonsense...

...end of nonsense.

WTF are you talking about?  Sperm+egg are less complex than a grown human.

But you don't get a sperm and egg from the same person. Sperm and egg are far greater complexity that the result it produces.

Don't you get it yet? A sperm together with an egg produce a person. The person can't produce another person. It is only when the person gets together with another person of the opposite sex that a new person can be produced. Two people/ sperm and egg. are more complex than one person who can't do what they do.

Sperm and egg are not more complex than a grown human being.  Sperm is not a man.  Egg is not a woman.

By the same token, just conceived baby is more complex at 8 weeks than it is at 2 weeks.

nonsense follows:
Grown man, or grown woman, or baby all alone cannot make new baby. Why not? Not complex enough. Must join to get complexity of sperm and egg to make new baby.

...just conceived baby is more complex at 8 weeks than it is at 2 weeks.

[BADecker]

@BADecker, I didn't want you to miss this after the fold:

The fact that I don't know everything about entropy doesn't have anything to do with it. Why not? Because nobody but nobody knows everything about entropy. The things that we DO know about entropy show that nothing that is complex comes from something less complex without the help of something that is more complex than both.

BADecker, we had this discussion before and I explained in detail why entropy is not the same as complexity, and why what you just wrote is wrong.

Should we have that discussion again, or just link to the relevant thread?

You are so silly. For example, if I point out the sky to you, and then explain that the sky is blue, this doesn't mean that I am the sky, right? In a similar way entropy expresses basics about complexity. But that doesn't mean that entropy is complexity, right?

But go ahead. Knock yourself out (Sean Connery said that in "Medicine Man"... the Knock yourself out, part). Explain some more that entropy isn't complexity if you like.

 

Your statement: "nothing that is complex comes from something less complex without the help of something that is more complex" is false.

Do you have an example of things as you say? After all, you can see cause and effect all over the place. Certainly there is complexity all around us. Everything wears out and disperses and dissipates as entropy predicts.

Takes two people to make a child - greater complexity making lesser complexity. People make cars - greater complexity making lesser complexity. What is your example regarding the reverse, lesser complexity making greater complexity?

How are you measuring the complexity of a child vis a vis the complexity of an adult? How about parents having octuplets -- surely eight babies in one birth are more complex than two adults?

The complexity of conception is greater the child. Why? Because no child comes about without it. Even if we can create a child in the lab and test tube without standard conception, no conception happens without the complexity of the things that cause it to happen.

Cause and effect stand. No cause to make conception happen, no child.

Conception is more complex than the child, because without its complexity, no child would happen.

This is a circular argument. You are in effect saying that the complexity of conception is greater than the complexity of a child because it would only happen if the one was more complex than the other.

Copper sulphate solution precipitates copper sulphate crystals. Which is more complex?
Wood burns to create smoke. Which is more complex?

And I just showed you right here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1355109.msg13965725#msg13965725 how you are mistaken. You and your political science when you can't prove real science wrong.

That wasn't my post.

Again:


Copper sulphate solution precipitates copper sulphate crystals. Which is more complex?
Wood burns to create smoke. Which is more complex?

How dense of you. The chemical reactions in both cases are way more complex than the results.

[BADecker]

...nonsense...
All complexity that we see, was made by greater complexity, or else we haven't seen what made it at all. There is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence or observation to the opposite.
...more nonsense...

...end of nonsense.

WTF are you talking about?  Sperm+egg are less complex than a grown human.

But you don't get a sperm and egg from the same person. Sperm and egg are far greater complexity that the result it produces.

Don't you get it yet? A sperm together with an egg produce a person. The person can't produce another person. It is only when the person gets together with another person of the opposite sex that a new person can be produced. Two people/ sperm and egg. are more complex than one person who can't do what they do.

Sperm and egg are not more complex than a grown human being.  Sperm is not a man.  Egg is not a woman.

By the same token, just conceived baby is more complex at 8 weeks than it is at 2 weeks.

nonsense follows:
Grown man, or grown woman, or baby all alone cannot make new baby. Why not? Not complex enough. Must join to get complexity of sperm and egg to make new baby.

...just conceived baby is more complex at 8 weeks than it is at 2 weeks.

It is still a human being that was set up by the conception process, which is way more complex by being able to set the whole thing going through pre-programming that is in the genes of the egg and sperm.

[organofcorti]

How dense of you. The chemical reactions in both cases are way more complex than the results.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere. How are you measuring the change in complexity? Or are you just making an assumption>

[BADecker]

How dense of you. The chemical reactions in both cases are way more complex than the results.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere. How are you measuring the change in complexity? Or are you just making an assumption>

When somebody has found a way to track all the electrons, protons, and neutrons in a chemical action, plus all the energies involved in the reaction, you might get the answer to your question. Nobody tracks it. We can't, although we might track a little of it sometime. Just because we have figured out how it works, doesn't mean that we can track the parts as they are doing their thing.

[mrflibblehat]

How dense of you. The chemical reactions in both cases are way more complex than the results.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere. How are you measuring the change in complexity? Or are you just making an assumption>

When somebody has found a way to track all the electrons, protons, and neutrons in a chemical action, plus all the energies involved in the reaction, you might get the answer to your question. Nobody tracks it. We can't, although we might track a little of it sometime. Just because we have figured out how it works, doesn't mean that we can track the parts as they are doing their thing.

So you're just supposing things are that way.

[mixan]

Can not be proven for something that you can not see. Unfortunately, there is no conclusive evidence that this being exists and many people rely on hard physical facts to make this decision if something truly exists, in our world that is.

[Moloch]

Clearly God exists... Just look at humans for example...

Humans live forever

Humans never get cancer

Our hair doesn't turn gray and fall out

Our teeth always come in straight and never get cavities

I have never been sick or tired or hungry

Why do humans need to spend 1/3 of our lives.... Asleep?

Why do we have tonsils, appendix, gall bladder, and the hiccups?

Yup, humans are clearly perfect, and designed by a perfect God

[BADecker]

How dense of you. The chemical reactions in both cases are way more complex than the results.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere. How are you measuring the change in complexity? Or are you just making an assumption>

When somebody has found a way to track all the electrons, protons, and neutrons in a chemical action, plus all the energies involved in the reaction, you might get the answer to your question. Nobody tracks it. We can't, although we might track a little of it sometime. Just because we have figured out how it works, doesn't mean that we can track the parts as they are doing their thing.

So you're just supposing things are that way.

So you're just supposing that things are some other way.   

[mrflibblehat]

I don't like and want to insult people but this is getting more and more stupid by the minute.

[BADecker]

Can not be proven for something that you can not see. Unfortunately, there is no conclusive evidence that this being exists and many people rely on hard physical facts to make this decision if something truly exists, in our world that is.

Can be proven by the fact that the whole universe would be extremely different, if it existed at all, without cause and effect, universal entropy, and complex universe. And God, by the dictionary definition, fits the result of these three scientific facts.

[BADecker]

Clearly God exists... Just look at humans for example...

Humans live forever

Humans never get cancer

Our hair doesn't turn gray and fall out

Our teeth always come in straight and never get cavities

I have never been sick or tired or hungry

Why do humans need to spend 1/3 of our lives.... Asleep?

Why do we have tonsils, appendix, gall bladder, and the hiccups?

Yup, humans are clearly perfect, and designed by a perfect God

Clearly God exists. Just look at what humans have done to themselves ^^^. But God is saving the ones who will accept salvation.

[mrflibblehat]

Clearly God exists... Just look at humans for example...

Humans live forever

Humans never get cancer

Our hair doesn't turn gray and fall out

Our teeth always come in straight and never get cavities

I have never been sick or tired or hungry

Why do humans need to spend 1/3 of our lives.... Asleep?

Why do we have tonsils, appendix, gall bladder, and the hiccups?

Yup, humans are clearly perfect, and designed by a perfect God

Clearly God exists. Just look at what humans have done to themselves ^^^. But God is saving the ones who will accept salvation.

So all the things mentioned before we caused them to ourselves?

[organofcorti]

How dense of you. The chemical reactions in both cases are way more complex than the results.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere. How are you measuring the change in complexity? Or are you just making an assumption>

When somebody has found a way to track all the electrons, protons, and neutrons in a chemical action, plus all the energies involved in the reaction, you might get the answer to your question. Nobody tracks it. We can't, although we might track a little of it sometime. Just because we have figured out how it works, doesn't mean that we can track the parts as they are doing their thing.

So, In summary:

Either the examples I gave -- Copper sulphate solution precipitates copper sulphate crystals and wood burning to create smoke -- have the following unmeasureable pathways:

Complex material -> Complex reaction -> Simple material or;
Simple material -> Complex reaction -> Complex material

So using your explanation, in at least one of the cases something complex comes from something simple.

[af_newbie]

It is still a human being that was set up by the conception process, which is way more complex by being able to set the whole thing going through pre-programming that is in the genes of the egg and sperm.

Is the 8 week old baby more complex than 2 weeks old baby?  Answer Yes or No please.

You understand the question, don't you?

[BADecker]

Clearly God exists... Just look at humans for example...

Humans live forever

Humans never get cancer

Our hair doesn't turn gray and fall out

Our teeth always come in straight and never get cavities

I have never been sick or tired or hungry

Why do humans need to spend 1/3 of our lives.... Asleep?

Why do we have tonsils, appendix, gall bladder, and the hiccups?

Yup, humans are clearly perfect, and designed by a perfect God

Clearly God exists. Just look at what humans have done to themselves ^^^. But God is saving the ones who will accept salvation.

So all the things mentioned before we caused them to ourselves?

Yes, one way or another.   

[mrflibblehat]

Clearly God exists... Just look at humans for example...

Humans live forever

Humans never get cancer

Our hair doesn't turn gray and fall out

Our teeth always come in straight and never get cavities

I have never been sick or tired or hungry

Why do humans need to spend 1/3 of our lives.... Asleep?

Why do we have tonsils, appendix, gall bladder, and the hiccups?

Yup, humans are clearly perfect, and designed by a perfect God

Clearly God exists. Just look at what humans have done to themselves ^^^. But God is saving the ones who will accept salvation.

So all the things mentioned before we caused them to ourselves?

Yes, one way or another.   

Your mind is really gone, isn't it? You'd say anything just to get your way, no matter how crazy.

[BADecker]

How dense of you. The chemical reactions in both cases are way more complex than the results.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere. How are you measuring the change in complexity? Or are you just making an assumption>

When somebody has found a way to track all the electrons, protons, and neutrons in a chemical action, plus all the energies involved in the reaction, you might get the answer to your question. Nobody tracks it. We can't, although we might track a little of it sometime. Just because we have figured out how it works, doesn't mean that we can track the parts as they are doing their thing.

So, In summary:

Either the examples I gave -- Copper sulphate solution precipitates copper sulphate crystals and wood burning to create smoke -- have the following unmeasureable pathways:

Complex material -> Complex reaction -> Simple material or;
Simple material -> Complex reaction -> Complex material

So using your explanation, in at least one of the cases something complex comes from something simple.

Didn't I say something about measuring all the particles and energies? Ah, yes, I did. But I also meant measuring their every relationship to each other. If you attempt to do this, you will find that the energies, the particles, their conversions molecularly, their relational positions, inside the conversion process, are way more complex than the end result that they produce.

Attempts to make measurements like this have been attempted for years using microcalorimetric functions. But it still is way beyond our reach because of the complexity involved.

[BADecker]

It is still a human being that was set up by the conception process, which is way more complex by being able to set the whole thing going through pre-programming that is in the genes of the egg and sperm.

Is the 8 week old baby more complex than 2 weeks old baby?  Answer Yes or No please.

You understand the question, don't you?

Your question is irrelevant to the complexity ideas we were talking about. But I will answer it anyway. Yes. HOWEVER, the process of conception that programmed and set up the person at all stages is way more complex than the person.

[BADecker]

Clearly God exists... Just look at humans for example...

Humans live forever

Humans never get cancer

Our hair doesn't turn gray and fall out

Our teeth always come in straight and never get cavities

I have never been sick or tired or hungry

Why do humans need to spend 1/3 of our lives.... Asleep?

Why do we have tonsils, appendix, gall bladder, and the hiccups?

Yup, humans are clearly perfect, and designed by a perfect God

Clearly God exists. Just look at what humans have done to themselves ^^^. But God is saving the ones who will accept salvation.

So all the things mentioned before we caused them to ourselves?

Yes, one way or another.   

Your mind is really gone, isn't it? You'd say anything just to get your way, no matter how crazy.

You have been smoking too much of that stuff. That's why you can't understand simple science.