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Author Topic: [ANN][XEL] Elastic Project - The Decentralized Supercomputer  (Read 450106 times)
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May 27, 2017, 12:30:59 AM
 #6361

Coralreefer, thanks for your effort! You are my personal hero! Sorry for not responding you yet, I will catch up this night.

So if you both working hard I feel useless now so I'll go to Elastic source and change old logo to new one. It's always something Wink

It's already done! ;-) Just wait a bit until I commit the new client.

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May 27, 2017, 01:34:02 AM
 #6362

another quick update...

When EK wrote his BTC example, he identified 2 key issues.  1) We needed a more flexible memory model, and 2) Incorporating Functions into the language was needed (it was originally not incorporated due to issues w/ recursion).  I am about done with the upgrades to the ElasticPL engine which addresses these 2 issues as well as incorporates several other fixes to prepare for SN integration.

To see an example of how much more user friendly the language is now, I rewrote EK's BTC example using the language upgrades:

     https://github.com/sprocket-fpga/xel_miner/blob/master/examples/SHA256_BTC.epl

Here's what it looked like before the changes to ElasticPL:

     https://github.com/OrdinaryDude/elastic_bitcoin_miner/blob/master/test

I am still a couple weeks away from wrapping up all the changes to ElasticPL, but they should be ready to test soon.  However, there are still other key issues that still need to be addressed before everything is ready:

     1) Will we have POW, and if so what logic is needed to ensure the miner actually performed the work
     2) How to store data between iterations and distribute to miners
     3) SN Integration

These are complex issues that will take time to solve.  It will require quite a bit of change to both the Core Server and Miner and will require quite a bit of coding from both EK and myself to complete.





There are no words to express my excitement.


EK,coralreefer,unvoid  u all my hero!
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May 27, 2017, 03:18:55 AM
 #6363

Thank you guys ! The Revolution of supercomputers is about to start . Congratulations EK ( you never lost hope), Coralreefer ( as frustrated as you were at times, you stayed) and Unvoid ( a man that brought everyone together) Grin

My " I want that Old Toyota Camry very bad" BTC Fund :1DQU4oqmZRcKSzg7MjPLMuHrMwnbDdjQRM
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May 27, 2017, 03:31:58 AM
 #6364

Do we have an infographic on a comparison between elastic and other coins? I would be willing to donate to whoever makes a good one Smiley

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May 27, 2017, 03:56:15 AM
 #6365

Do we have an infographic on a comparison between elastic and other coins? I would be willing to donate to whoever makes a good one Smiley
Here's the one in our Forum ( I believe EK wrote it)
https://talk.elasticexplorer.org/t/elastic-compared-to-other-competitors/30

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May 27, 2017, 03:35:20 PM
 #6366


Is there a guide of similar detail for windows? I already have a windows server machine always on and could run a node there.
I don't want to setup a full time linux machine just for that

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May 27, 2017, 03:42:06 PM
 #6367

Yet another supercomputer project? Come on.

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May 27, 2017, 03:43:37 PM
 #6368

Yet another supercomputer project? Come on.

HAHAHA

Trying to buy cheap?

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May 27, 2017, 03:44:06 PM
 #6369

Yet another supercomputer project? Come on.
haha, comedian !
I guess you just read the titles only. Go, study and then put comments here.

My " I want that Old Toyota Camry very bad" BTC Fund :1DQU4oqmZRcKSzg7MjPLMuHrMwnbDdjQRM
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May 27, 2017, 04:10:58 PM
 #6370

Yet another supercomputer project? Come on.

Quite unfair to call Elastic "yet another". Elastic has timeline roots way before most of (cryptocurrency based) supercomputers you read about. So it's more fair to say that Golem (or anything else) is "yet another supercomputer".

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May 27, 2017, 04:12:47 PM
 #6371


Is there a guide of similar detail for windows? I already have a windows server machine always on and could run a node there.
I don't want to setup a full time linux machine just for that

You can try with this guide: https://talk.elasticexplorer.org/t/how-to-setup-elastic-core-xel-online-wallet-on-windows-platform/70

BTC: 1CMgHWx4wkAaAy2FfeCyPdedUExmhGhfi5
XEL: XEL-HCM8-KB6E-YFLK-8BWMF
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May 27, 2017, 04:21:54 PM
 #6372

Whoever runs full nodes will forge new coins? Also the more coins a node holds, the more coins it forges?


Can someone please answer, thanks

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May 27, 2017, 04:36:55 PM
 #6373

Yet another supercomputer project? Come on.
haha, comedian !
I guess you just read the titles only. Go, study and then put comments here.
dont feed the troll...
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May 27, 2017, 04:50:26 PM
Last edit: May 27, 2017, 05:50:39 PM by unvoid
 #6374

Whoever runs full nodes will forge new coins? Also the more coins a node holds, the more coins it forges?


Can someone please answer, thanks

You'll be able to forge only if you login to that node with account that have some XEL. I don't remember how much exactly but NXT had some limit (1k or 10k coins) from which you could start forging. I don't know if @EK removed/changed this limit.

Second part of your question: Forging works proportional to amount of coins you have. To simplify this let's assume that there is 10k total coins and 3 forgers in network.

First have 1k.
Second have 2k.
Third have 3k.

In sum, 6k (60%) of coins forging blocks. To calculate chance for all of them:

First: 1/5 * 100 = 20% chance to forge a block.
Second: 2/5 * 100 = 40% chance to forge a block.
Third: 3/5 * 100 = 60% chance to forge a block.

Another thing. If compute part of Elastic will be ready you can earn coins by computing. So if you offer your CPU/RAM to network you can earn XEL.

BTC: 1CMgHWx4wkAaAy2FfeCyPdedUExmhGhfi5
XEL: XEL-HCM8-KB6E-YFLK-8BWMF
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May 27, 2017, 04:59:40 PM
 #6375

Elastic and memory

This is mostly me thinking aloud, to figure this out. It's very possible that questions raised here already have answers I'm unaware of.

I've been thinking about this for a little while now, maybe someone who has a little mor insight in this can give some input on that matter. As far as i know, at the moment, elastic is essentially memory-less. This means, there are only two possible job scenarios at the moment:

Job 01 is issued. Bitcoin mining is a good example, the goal is to find a magic hash, to simplify things, lets say 8 figures long, with four zeros up front.

Miners A, B, C, D, E start working on it.

A finds 00001efg
B finds 00002ghi
C finds nothing and cancels
D finds 00003ijk
E finds 00001efg, the same as miner A (in case of finding hashes, this is highly unlikely, but depending on the specific task, this is a possible scenario.

Job 02 is issued. This time, the goal is to find a specific hash. Let's say, we try to bruteforce a password (Don't, though. This is for theories sake only). The password is "abc123".

A finds nothing and cancels
B finds "abc123" first
C finds "abc123" second
D sees that the problem is solved and cancels
E sees that the problem is solved and cancels

Without memory, these are the two types of jobs possible. but both jobs suffer from lack of memory as well, while Job 02 is a prime example for it:

If we assume, that Miners A, B, C, D and E use roughly the same approach to bruteforcing, meaning, following roughly the same iterations of figures (like trying "000001", then "000002" and so on, not that this is a good way to approach this Wink ), this means that all of them try the same iterations, until the fastest one eventually hits the right solution. This is a giant loss of computing power. Now, in the specific scenario, the solution would be to generate random inputs, instead of following a system, but in other cases, this leads to the network as a whole computing functions, which already have a (negative) solution.

Having a memory system in place, miners could in theory write iterations they already tried in there. In practice, this works against their personal goals, because getting the job bounty is essentially a race. Thus, you'd want concurrent miners to work to as many negative iterations as possible.

What looks like a solution to this problem is to pay a bounty for every iteration computed, no matter how successful it is. However, this leads to the problem, that a Miner can intentionally hold back the correct answer to keep the job open.
If the bounty for finding the right solution is not high enough, sending negative results and getting paid for them may be more profitable than sending the solution.
If the bounty for finding the right solution is too high, sending negative results and helping other miners doing so may be not as appealing as hoping to find the right solution.

This is a messy situation. Here is an idea for a solution, though:

Pools.

I miners are organized in profit-sharing pools, they have incentive to exchange negative results with each other, because they are racing against another pool, which might win the race. In this scenario, the overall computation power would still be lowered, due to different pools competing against each other, but it would be higher than in a scenario, in which every miner is on their own.

Additionally, a scenario is possible, in which "spies" are registered in multiple pools, thus seeing the results of each other. Bit where would that lead? would that lead to Miners withholding information again? Would that lead to Miners avoiding pools? Oh, game theory, thou art a heartless bitch…

To summarize my train of thought: while it would be great to have a memory function, it may be hard to incentivise miners to use them.

This is it for now, the sun is stewing my brain. Will get back at it later.
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May 27, 2017, 05:17:48 PM
 #6376

Yet another supercomputer project? Come on.

Elastic Project is the pioneer to all these "other" supercomputer projects and it hasn't even launched. It's at the forefront. Get your facts right sir.  Wink



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May 27, 2017, 05:57:50 PM
 #6377


Is there a guide of similar detail for windows? I already have a windows server machine always on and could run a node there.
I don't want to setup a full time linux machine just for that

You can try with this guide: https://talk.elasticexplorer.org/t/how-to-setup-elastic-core-xel-online-wallet-on-windows-platform/70

Oh OK. I already tried that back when byrallier first posted it.

I was assuming things will have changed by the time lightwallet node binaries are released.

I suppose There is enough info between the available guides to figure it out when the time comes

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May 27, 2017, 06:16:10 PM
 #6378

Whoever runs full nodes will forge new coins? Also the more coins a node holds, the more coins it forges?


Can someone please answer, thanks

You'll be able to forge only if you login to that node with account that have some XEL. I don't remember how much exactly but NXT had some limit (1k or 10k coins) from which you could start forging. I don't know if @EK removed/changed this limit.

Second part of your question: Forging works proportional to amount of coins you have. To simplify this let's assume that there is 10k total coins and 3 forgers in network.

First have 1k.
Second have 2k.
Third have 3k.

In sum, 6k (60%) of coins forging blocks. To calculate chance for all of them:

First: 1/5 * 100 = 20% chance to forge a block.
Second: 2/5 * 100 = 40% chance to forge a block.
Third: 3/5 * 100 = 60% chance to forge a block.

Another thing. If compute part of Elastic will be ready you can earn coins by computing. So if you offer your CPU/RAM to network you can earn XEL.

Thank you for the thorough answer  Cool Cool

Behold the Tangle Mysteries! Dare to know It's truth.

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May 27, 2017, 07:48:04 PM
 #6379

Elastic and memory

This is mostly me thinking aloud, to figure this out. It's very possible that questions raised here already have answers I'm unaware of.

I've been thinking about this for a little while now, maybe someone who has a little mor insight in this can give some input on that matter. As far as i know, at the moment, elastic is essentially memory-less. This means, there are only two possible job scenarios at the moment:

Job 01 is issued. Bitcoin mining is a good example, the goal is to find a magic hash, to simplify things, lets say 8 figures long, with four zeros up front.

Miners A, B, C, D, E start working on it.

A finds 00001efg
B finds 00002ghi
C finds nothing and cancels
D finds 00003ijk
E finds 00001efg, the same as miner A (in case of finding hashes, this is highly unlikely, but depending on the specific task, this is a possible scenario.

Job 02 is issued. This time, the goal is to find a specific hash. Let's say, we try to bruteforce a password (Don't, though. This is for theories sake only). The password is "abc123".

A finds nothing and cancels
B finds "abc123" first
C finds "abc123" second
D sees that the problem is solved and cancels
E sees that the problem is solved and cancels

Without memory, these are the two types of jobs possible. but both jobs suffer from lack of memory as well, while Job 02 is a prime example for it:

If we assume, that Miners A, B, C, D and E use roughly the same approach to bruteforcing, meaning, following roughly the same iterations of figures (like trying "000001", then "000002" and so on, not that this is a good way to approach this Wink ), this means that all of them try the same iterations, until the fastest one eventually hits the right solution. This is a giant loss of computing power. Now, in the specific scenario, the solution would be to generate random inputs, instead of following a system, but in other cases, this leads to the network as a whole computing functions, which already have a (negative) solution.

Having a memory system in place, miners could in theory write iterations they already tried in there. In practice, this works against their personal goals, because getting the job bounty is essentially a race. Thus, you'd want concurrent miners to work to as many negative iterations as possible.

What looks like a solution to this problem is to pay a bounty for every iteration computed, no matter how successful it is. However, this leads to the problem, that a Miner can intentionally hold back the correct answer to keep the job open.
If the bounty for finding the right solution is not high enough, sending negative results and getting paid for them may be more profitable than sending the solution.
If the bounty for finding the right solution is too high, sending negative results and helping other miners doing so may be not as appealing as hoping to find the right solution.

This is a messy situation. Here is an idea for a solution, though:

Pools.

I miners are organized in profit-sharing pools, they have incentive to exchange negative results with each other, because they are racing against another pool, which might win the race. In this scenario, the overall computation power would still be lowered, due to different pools competing against each other, but it would be higher than in a scenario, in which every miner is on their own.

Additionally, a scenario is possible, in which "spies" are registered in multiple pools, thus seeing the results of each other. Bit where would that lead? would that lead to Miners withholding information again? Would that lead to Miners avoiding pools? Oh, game theory, thou art a heartless bitch…

To summarize my train of thought: while it would be great to have a memory function, it may be hard to incentivise miners to use them.

This is it for now, the sun is stewing my brain. Will get back at it later.

I'm not sure this answers your specific question, but the design already allows the job author to set multiple iterations which provide bounties as well as specific criteria for what qualifies as a bounty for each iteration.  once all bounties for an iteration is done the miners all move  to the next iteration
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May 27, 2017, 09:13:47 PM
 #6380

(…)

I'm not sure this answers your specific question, but the design already allows the job author to set multiple iterations which provide bounties as well as specific criteria for what qualifies as a bounty for each iteration.  once all bounties for an iteration is done the miners all move  to the next iteration

Well, I didn't have a specific question per se, I was just thinking aloud, especially the part about memory. A computer consists of a processor and data storage. We are focussing on the processing part, which is cool, but there is the memory part as well, which needs attention.

the simplest solution would be to make it the job authors responsibility to somehow provide the needed data, essentially working as a kind of RAM in which miners can check for relevant data.

However, even with a memory system in place, there may be scenarios, in which miners have little to no incentive to use this memory.

Let's take a look at the bruteforcing a password job. I'm not saying that this is something, Elastic should be used for, and you are welcome to provide a different example, but this specific job shows Elastics shortcomings pretty well:

It is pretty much throwing random input into a function and running it until a single solution is found. There aren't multiple solutions, just one. This greatly affects how miners behave:

Miners have no incentive to share information about which inputs they already tested, because they don't want to give other miners an edge. This means, that in a worst-case scenario, many inputs are tested by multiple miners, effectively lessening Elastics power.

I'm sorry that I'm rambling.
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