SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc

[zebedee]

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?

They share the same Marketing Director, Mr. Jon Holmquist, it seems.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Guest-Page.htm?No=00662

Jon Holmquist
 
Jon Holmquist, head of Marketing at Coinabul, has been involved with Bitcoin for almost two years. With a focus on Bitcoin businesses, Jon aims to make the highly technical Bitcoin easily understood by anyone. Jon is involved with Coinabul (a Gold for Bitcoin merchant), with the site WeUseCoins (the best website for people new to Bitcoin), as well as recently launched website, BitcoinStore.com, which is selling electronics for prices lower than both Amazon and NewEgg. Jon recently founded the site BitcoinFriday after seeing a lack of merchant sales in Bitcoin as well as a lack of organization between Bitcoin vendors. Webpages to link to: http://bitcoinfriday.com http://coinabul.com http://bitcoinstore.com Video to link to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Um63OQz3bjo

I work with BitcoinStore and Coinabul.

No other link than that.

-Jon

So as marketing director, what is your opinion on the marketing value of this thread to Coinabul?

And based on this thread, why do you continue to associate yourself with Coinabul?

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[BigFigurez]

I think Coinabul should send back 50% to the buyer to split the losses since the USPS are dip shits.

Edit: Or 100% if it wasn't in Coinabul's Terms of Service that any package covered by insurance that was lost in transit and not paid for by the USPS would put the buyer at fault.

I think at least 50% should be refunded either way. You're the one making profit and providing a SAFE service so you should take the fault whenever the buyer doesn't receive his product, no matter what.

Up until the item reaches the buyers hands it should be your responsibility unless stated otherwise in the Terms of Service.

[malevolent]

I think Coinabul should send back 50% to the buyer to split the losses since the USPS are dip shits.

I think Coinabul should send back 100% to the buyer since he shouldn't want to be a dip shit like USPS.

Let's take a hypothetical situation:

I sell something on eBay and decide to deliver it to the buyer by car. The buyer paid me for the product and gas in advance.
During the journey I decide to go get something to eat and park the car on a restaurant parking.
Some dip shit thief decides he likes my car and wants it so much he steals it while I take a shit after those delivious roasted ribs.
FFFFFFFFUUUUUU, I was supposed to deliver the thing to that guy. What should I do?

How do I prove that the theft was not set up?
How can Coinabul prove that he didn't tip the delivering company about the silver so that they can pretend it got lost and share the profits?
There is a potential for abuse in both situations, if the seller assumes responsibility as it should be, he has no incentive whatsoever to try and scam the buyer.
Otherwise I can give the 2nd car key to a friend and ask him to 'steal' it, whereas Coinabul can keep the silver and the money, at the same time maintaining an alibi because he has a tracking number.

If my car's insurance also covered whatever's inside the car I can file a claim but meanwhile I should take the responsibility for leaving the car and choosing my insurance company (in case they would try to avoid paying) and return the rightfully owned money to the buyer due to being unable to provide the delivery of the product that was promised.

[Justin00]

Yip they are also part of the 'inner (jerk) circle'

Basically the way it works is... if you are part of the inner circle your in the clear. If you try to sell shares a day before the business goes bust, your in the clear... I could go on but we all get the point =)

I'd hate to see what happens when someone in the inner circle gets scammed... ah wait.. the scammer gets the scammer tag after 8 seconds.

I don't think coinabul will get scammer tagged - theymos probably does not consider the evidence here to be "clear".

[Monster Tent]

I disagree with your analysis. If a fail to pay you back that is conversion. The very essence of a scam is the intent to deceive. 

The deception is that the repayment (in one example) or insurance (in the other) was unconditional when it was not.

You would have to prove that coinabul actually knew at the time that if the parcel was lost that no insurance coverage was to be had. If they only should have known your back to negligence and conversion. Fraud is a specific intent crime

Whether or not they knew is difficult to know, but they reasonably should have known. According to Jay, the insurer said:

the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages.

Had Coinabul done their due diligence the would have known their insurer's per parcel limit and not exceeded it.

Whether or not they underinsured with the intent to pocket the savings or it was just negligence, who's to know? And does it matter?

Not really  - either way Coinabul should pay back the consumer (no matter how you describe it) Fraud is only really pertinent if you plan to pursue criminal action. I don't think Coinabul is guilty of a crime, just really poor business decisions, which probably exposes them to a Tort action in which the consumer has a compelling argument

Thats why its better to deal with companies in the same country so you can use consumer protection agencies to make them do the right thing.

[Bitinvestor]

Thats why its better to deal with companies in the same country so you can use consumer protection agencies to make them do the right thing.

Yes, or pay with a credit card so that you can do a chargeback.

Yip they are also part of the 'inner (jerk) circle'

Basically the way it works is... if you are part of the inner circle your in the clear. If you try to sell shares a day before the business goes bust, your in the clear... I could go on but we all get the point =)

I'd hate to see what happens when someone in the inner circle gets scammed... ah wait.. the scammer gets the scammer tag after 8 seconds.

I don't think coinabul will get scammer tagged - theymos probably does not consider the evidence here to be "clear".

I do agree that Coinabul won't get a scammer tag because "he's one of the boys" but at least the information is out in the open for everybody to see and to make up their own mind. He will certainly lose some customers because of this, even if he doesn't get the scammer tag.

[filharvey]

Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?

I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.

I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)

And the logo:



81BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?

If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all  

Same. Looks like there is room for more, this is the end of coinabul, he just does not know it yet. Even if he pays up now the damage is done.

What do u think the margin for profit is here? I know the person who just about runs Merritt finicial in the us. I can look to see what it costs to buy gold from them and they hold it all in site and could use them to ship and fill the orders if there is enough room to profit.

Phil

[LoweryCBS]

Margin is pretty thin. I'm in talks now with a wholesale source.

Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?

I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.

I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)

And the logo:



81BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?

If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all  

Same. Looks like there is room for more, this is the end of coinabul, he just does not know it yet. Even if he pays up now the damage is done.

What do u think the margin for profit is here? I know the person who just about runs Merritt finicial in the us. I can look to see what it costs to buy gold from them and they hold it all in site and could use them to ship and fill the orders if there is enough room to profit.

Phil

[bitcool]

I was attracted to Coinabul site a couple of times, even placed items in the cart, in the end I abandoned the carts because of the high premiums.
 
That being said, it's tough doing business in bitcoin world, hoarding is much easier. 

[ruggedman_dan]

This is tough all around. No one wants to give up money plain and simple.

BUT, with that being said, Coinabul really has to see the bigger picture. This is a fourm of Bitcoin users. Last time I checked we were their target market. Why would you come here and make your company look undesirable in front of hundreds of potential customers?

Most would agree that this could have been handled differently.

[Raoul Duke]

Why would you come here and make your company look undesirable in front of hundreds of potential customers?

Lack of competition, maybe...

[boonies4u]

I could imagine two situations where the seller does not need to reimburse or reship.

1. They made it clear that the extra BTC paid would be used to purchase insurance from another party and if the party did not accept the claim that Coinabul would not be liable to reimburse or reship.

2. The buyer in one way or another caused
 
  a. the shipment to not arrive

  b. the shipment to be delayed indefinitely e.g. not paying customs

  c. the insurance company to deny the claim

In any other situation I would assume (as a buyer) that Coinabul would reimburse the buyer upon starting (or shortly before starting) the claims process with the insurance company.

It seems that a fluctuation in the trading price of silver caused the claim to be denied. I am wondering if Coinabul could reclaim at a different price.  At what price was the insurance claim made? The price when the claim was made or the price upon shipment?

[psilan]

Wow. Coinabul is terrible. They also post private conversations. I will never buy from you.
This will get big on Reddit, I hope.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a5cjg/coinabul_sells_silver_by_insured_mail_package_is/

[luv2drnkbr]

Coinabul, am I understanding this correctly?  You know for sure that the customer did not receive the product (so you know he's not scamming you), and somehow you think it's not your responsibility to fix the situation, especially when the customer paid extra for insurance?

Are you fucking high?  This is 100% on you to fix.

Scammer tag.

[aric]

The evidence is clear in the context of basic business and ethics. Coinabul's service did not deliver a purchased product to the Buyer. Coinabul's insurance did not cover their ass from a loss. Both are entirely outside the scope of responsibility of the Buyer.

Scam?

Yes. It's illogical to say that scams require premeditated behavior. Scamming needs behavior that determinedly affects the outcome. Aside from an astounding delay of months, intentionally not giving full and due recourse is scamming.

Good businesses deliver. When problems arise, good businesses are eager to fairly settle problems. That usually means full recourse -- and often more for the inconvenience. What often separates good businesses from unreliable/scammy business is empathy. I digress. Reputation seems irrevocably lost for the foreseeable future. Relying on future delivery from a site that puts up a fight when they're clearly wrong is for future scam victims. If a site can't handle the weight, it needs to explicitly change and disclose new policies going forward. Anything less is inherently a scam.

WTF: Did anyone see this from the Reddit post?

bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago

I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?

[flound1129]

Coinabul, am I understanding this correctly?  You know for sure that the customer did not receive the product (so you know he's not scamming you), and somehow you think it's not your responsibility to fix the situation, especially when the customer paid extra for insurance?

Are you fucking high?  This is 100% on you to fix.

Scammer tag.

I agree, I don't see what the controversy is here.

[Bitinvestor]

WTF: Did anyone see this from the Reddit post?

bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago

I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?

Ugh, another one. There's probably many more who don't want to go public...

Once a scammer, always a scammer.

[davidspitzer]

I agree based on the usage of the scammer tag that Coinabul deserves it. If they are a scammer or guilty of fraud is a much deeper question. They are definitely "guilty" of horrendous business ethics and poor business acumen. In law school the word scam always carried the the equivalency of fraud. Fraud does in fact require actual intent to deceive at the time the transaction takes place.

Laws against fraud vary from state to state, and can be criminal or civil in nature. Criminal fraud requires criminal intent on the part of the perpetrator, and is punishable by fines or imprisonment. Civil fraud, on the other hand, applies more broadly to circumstances where bad-faith is usually involved, and where the penalties are meant to punish the perpetrator and put the victim back in the same position before the fraud took place.

While the exact wording of fraud charges varies among state and federal laws. the essential elements needed to prove a fraud claim in general include: (1) a misrepresentation of a material fact; (2) by a person or entity who knows or believes it to be false; (3) to a person or entity who justifiably relies on the misrepresentation; and (4) actual injury or loss resulting from his or her reliance.

That said I do agree that Coinabul deserves the tag based on the commonly accepted usage on this board. They may be guilty of fraud itself but the burden of proof would be much higher than would be needed to label them as such with a forum tag

[HighInBC]

This is bull. No real gold dealer would deny responsibility like this.

I had an order from APMEX go missing, in time the investigation revealed it was likely stolen from a UPS truck. APMEX had a replacement package going out before I even noticed the delivery exception. They did so PRIOR to filing THEIR insurance.

When you sell a buyer insurance it is your job to make sure the package is actually INSURED, failing that he should pay it out of pocket.

I want to buy about $20k worth of gold over the next few months and was considering Coinabul, but forget about that! His prices are so high I could just sell the bitcoins and go to the local store.

[davidspitzer]

This is bull. No real gold dealer would deny responsibility like this.

I had an order from APMEX go missing, in time the investigation revealed it was likely stolen from a UPS truck. APMEX had a replacement package going out before I even noticed the delivery exception. They did so PRIOR to filing THEIR insurance.

When you sell a buyer insurance it is your job to make sure the package is actually INSURED, failing that he should pay it out of pocket.

I want to buy about $20k worth of gold over the next few months and was considering Coinabul, but forget about that! His prices are so high I could just sell the bitcoins and go to the local store.

I totally agree - I have never tried them but there is this vendor also:

bitcoincommodities.com

I am going to do some research on them and if they check out I might give them a go