BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot

[RazzleDazzle]

Umm, okay, you realize that in order for you to sue someone and collect judgement, that other person has to actually show up in court right?  Please explain to me why Betcoin, operating out of some shady island, is going to buy some economy class tickets, spend money on attorneys, and fly over to Murica to defend against a claim, when ya know...they could just not?  Even assuming that jason gets a default judgement in his favor because no one from Betcoin showed up, how in the world is he going to collect that money?

Do you think the US is going to send over some international task force to break down Betcoin's doors for civil litigation?  Trying to sue Betcoin is literally the most useless, pointless thing ever.  Like that course of action has 0 realistic merit. 

This is so retarded.  Please go and try to sue an entity that does not store their money in the United States and see how successful you are in collecting money. 

[1714802460]

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[1714802460]

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[RazzleDazzle]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

[marlais]

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

I think this is a legal gray area at best. A couple weeks ago a court of appeals unanimously ruled that Microsoft didn't need to comply with a search warrant for e-mails they stored on Irish servers. The fact that the data were relayed by a U.S.-based company wasn't enough to give the court jurisdiction over the matter.

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ae2fb30d-207e-45ad-9316-4022ec64fd69

However, because Microsoft’s servers were stored in Ireland, the core issue in the case became whether “Microsoft can thwart the government’s otherwise justified demand for the emails at issue by the simple expedient of choosing — in its own discretion — to store them on a server in another country.” Judge Lynch concluded, although somewhat hesitantly, that Microsoft does indeed have this power under the SCA.

[ajareselde]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

[jasonort]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

OK I'll jump in here.  I am not asking for more money.  Yes I settled.  Am I happy with that, No.  What I am asking for is information.  I want to know how the bets are handled so that I can inform myself and other players on what goes on behind the scenes of an online casino.  This whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth with software providers being able to not pay on a winning spin by saying that they made a mistake after the fact.  I would like to know the chain of custody of a bet, who handles the money, and who decides a win.  Is it the casino or the software provider.  In this case I would also like to know why betcoin.ag has censored and/or deleted my posts.  If they have nothing to hide and they backed me as they say then why censor me?  And third I simply asked for their opinion on whether they thought I should have been paid the jackpot.  It is simply an opinion and not legally binding as the transaction is apparently between the player and the software provider, with the casino acting only as a middleman.  After what I went through I do not think these questions are asking too much from them.  I am not trying to bash them in a public forum, in fact I have for the most part backed them.  But two weeks have gone by since I posed these questions and I have been completely ignored.  They went so far as to delete my post from their site until I pointed this out publicly on their player chat and embarrassed them enough to put my post back up.  All I want is some transparency, because as it stands I am not confident enough in their site to continue to bet there.  I want to, I like their site, but I need my questions answered first.  Is that really too much to ask?

[ajareselde]

OK I'll jump in here.  I am not asking for more money.  Yes I settled.  Am I happy with that, No.  What I am asking for is information. 

You settled, wrote about how happy you are, and now you say you are not happy with money, but only want information..
I hope you can see how this sounds like you're trying only to hurt middleman here, who went above and beyond with betsoft to get you that settlement.

I simply asked for their opinion on whether they thought I should have been paid the jackpot.

You both should , and should not have won it imo, hence the settlement was the logical choice. I know how cold this may sound, but you know urself that you wouldnt have
taken the deal if you were 100% correct on the matter.

It is simply an opinion and not legally binding as the transaction is apparently between the player and the software provider acting only as a middleman.  After what I went through I do not think these questions are asking too much from them.  I am not trying to bash them in a public forum, in fact I have for the most part backed them.  But two weeks have gone by since I posed these questions and I have been completely ignored.  They went so far as to delete my post from their site until I pointed this out publicly on their player chat and embarrassed enough to put my post back up.  All I want is some transparency, because as it stands I am not confident enough in their site to continue to bet there.  I want to, I like their site, but I need my questions answered first.  Is that really too much to ask?

Fair enough, but i hope you realise that every letter they write about the case gets twisted and turned 99 times by competing casinos and their representatives,
so the best option may be to open a private line of communication. And furthermore, what makes you so sure you are the only one under NDA ?

I can see that you realize that betcoin.ag is the middle man in this situation, and even tho they could have played this out in a better way, i really hope you can
see that they are getting bashed and abused way more than they earned.



After all this said and done, let me ask you a simple question; Do you think betcoin.ag is a scam site ?

[jasonort]

OK I'll jump in here.  I am not asking for more money.  Yes I settled.  Am I happy with that, No.  What I am asking for is information. 

You settled, wrote about how happy you are, and now you say you are not happy with money, but only want information..
I hope you can see how this sounds like you're trying only to hurt middleman here, who went above and beyond with betsoft to get you that settlement.

I simply asked for their opinion on whether they thought I should have been paid the jackpot.

You both should , and should not have won it imo, hence the settlement was the logical choice. I know how cold this may sound, but you know urself that you wouldnt have
taken the deal if you were 100% correct on the matter.

It is simply an opinion and not legally binding as the transaction is apparently between the player and the software provider acting only as a middleman.  After what I went through I do not think these questions are asking too much from them.  I am not trying to bash them in a public forum, in fact I have for the most part backed them.  But two weeks have gone by since I posed these questions and I have been completely ignored.  They went so far as to delete my post from their site until I pointed this out publicly on their player chat and embarrassed enough to put my post back up.  All I want is some transparency, because as it stands I am not confident enough in their site to continue to bet there.  I want to, I like their site, but I need my questions answered first.  Is that really too much to ask?

Fair enough, but i hope you realise that every letter they write about the case gets twisted and turned 99 times by competing casinos and their representatives,
so the best option may be to open a private line of communication. And furthermore, what makes you so sure you are the only one under NDA ?

I can see that you realize that betcoin.ag is the middle man in this situation, and even tho they could have played this out in a better way, i really hope you can
see that they are getting bashed and abused way more than they earned.



After all this said and done, let me ask you a simple question; Do you think betcoin.ag is a scam site ?

I can see that talking with you further will solve nothing. You have deflected all of my questions.  Let's just agree to disagree.

[ajareselde]

I can see that talking with you further will solve nothing. You have deflected all of my questions.  Let's just agree to disagree.

Betsoft provides the software for all of the the top online casinos including Betcoin as well as all payouts directly through there interface. There would be no way for us to even change it as you are technically playing directly on Betsoft servers

Hello Betcoin,

The jackpot can only be won on an active, paid round. So, this behavior is correct being that it was achieved during a free spin session.

Warm Regards,

Support Manager
Betsoft Gaming

Most your question have been answered in first line of communication, but you keep repeating them because you want a different answer.
Can you please answer one question i have asked ?

[TwitchySeal]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

What makesyou think that the jackpot shouldn't be won during a free spin?  Because they said so afterwards?  They have other games where jackpots can be won during either regular spin or during freespin bonus rounds, some games jackpot can only be won during bonus rounds.

They also said it was because of the wrong denomination.  

In the end, when  considering the betsoft jackpot data and Bovadas reaction, it's pretty clear (in my opinion) that they didn't know what reason to give because they never thought those 5 symbols would appear on a valid pay line and those 500+ BTC (and growing) will never be paid out to anyone.  

It's also clear that ajaresdale (like cjmoles) has a tendency to make statements as if they are fact when, in reality, they are assumptions or opinions at best and often blatant lies.

[ajareselde]

What makesyou think that the jackpot shouldn't be won during a free spin?  Because they said so afterwards?  They have other games where jackpots can be won during either regular spin or during freespin bonus rounds, some games jackpot can only be won during bonus rounds.

It was betsoft that refused the jackpot, hence the thread title is BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot, and not Betcoin Non-Payment of Jackpot, but you only attack betcoin.ag.. hmm.. why is that i wonder..

After a mistake in TOS was pointed out, it was obvious that neither betcoin or betsoft are going to pay them out, but due to the fact that they did make a mistake in
TOS, the only logical move was to settle with client which he accepted and stated this :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

...and now he's back wanting more, even tho he wont admit it openly. He can't harras betsoft so he's doing so to betcoin.

In the end, when  considering the betsoft jackpot data and Bovadas reaction, it's pretty clear (in my opinion) that they didn't know what reason to give because they never thought those 5 symbols would appear on a valid pay line and those 500+ BTC (and growing) will never be paid out to anyone.  

It will be paid out when a valid hit happens.

It's also clear that ajaresdale (like cjmoles) has a tendency to make statements as if they are fact when, in reality, they are assumptions or opinions at best and often blatant lies.

I think you are describing yourself.

I would like to ask people to look at TwitchySeal FIRST POSTS ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=538922;sa=showPosts;start=1080 ) since he created account a year ago or so..  
It's obvious that he created the account primarily to attack betcoin.ag

Why would someone do that, ask yourself ! Well ofc, because he is a shill of other competing casino, and you know on who i mean when i say that.

[Trayber]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

Please tell me how the jackpot was hit in error in free spin. Shouldn't a slot paytable say so? I was the first one in this thread to point out that Betsoft changed the paytable only AFTER Jason won the jackpot during the free spin play. Let me get this straight, this slot has been out for 6 1/2 years and it took until now for Betsoft to realize there was a error in this slot again after someone hits the jackpot combination during free spin play. So they can just make up the rules of the game on the go? It comes down to this. Jason got screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars because Betsoft is a shady gaming provider and is not honest. Betcoin contracts out games from Betsoft therefore they are not honest either.

[ajareselde]

Please tell me how the jackpot was hit in error in free spin. Shouldn't a slot paytable say so? I was the first one in this thread to point out that Betsoft changed the paytable only AFTER Jason won the jackpot during the free spin play. Let me get this straight, this slot has been out for 6 1/2 years and it took until now for Betsoft to realize there was a error in this slot again after someone hits the jackpot combination during free spin play. So they can just make up the rules of the game on the go? It comes down to this. Jason got screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars because Betsoft is a shady gaming provider and is not honest. Betcoin contracts out games from Betsoft therefore they are not honest either.

I wish i could say that there was no error from betcoin, but there was that fact that they didn't have pointed that jackpot cant come from free spin.
The software immediately show how the hit wasn't a valid jackpot, and betsoft confirmed that, so what to do in that situation ?! Nothing else other than
a settlement can fix that, because obviously you don't give someone jackpot amount because of error in TOS.

Jason wan't screwed over, because it wasn't a valid jackpot hit in the first place, due to it being a free spin. The one who lost the most in this case was betcoin,
because it got pressured from Jason, betsoft, and competing casinos who just waited such opportunity with pitches and forks.

[jasonort]

Please tell me how the jackpot was hit in error in free spin. Shouldn't a slot paytable say so? I was the first one in this thread to point out that Betsoft changed the paytable only AFTER Jason won the jackpot during the free spin play. Let me get this straight, this slot has been out for 6 1/2 years and it took until now for Betsoft to realize there was a error in this slot again after someone hits the jackpot combination during free spin play. So they can just make up the rules of the game on the go? It comes down to this. Jason got screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars because Betsoft is a shady gaming provider and is not honest. Betcoin contracts out games from Betsoft therefore they are not honest either.

I wish i could say that there was no error from betcoin, but there was that fact that they didn't have pointed that jackpot cant come from free spin.
The software immediately show how the hit wasn't a valid jackpot, and betsoft confirmed that, so what to do in that situation ?! Nothing else other than
a settlement can fix that, because obviously you don't give someone jackpot amount because of error in TOS.

Jason wan't screwed over, because it wasn't a valid jackpot hit in the first place, due to it being a free spin. The one who lost the most in this case was betcoin,
because it got pressured from Jason, betsoft, and competing casinos who just waited such opportunity with pitches and forks.

You seem to know a lot of information about betcoin.  Some of the things you are stating might only be known by someone who is on the inside working for betcoin.  Can you please explain your relationship with betcoin?  If you do work for betcoin stop wasting your time with these replies and answer my questions.  Betcoin would not be getting their reputation tarnished if they had just been straightforward and transparent.  This has never been my intention, and I am not looking to extort money from them.  If these questions had all been answered upfront in an honest way betcoin's reputation would have remained intact.  By digging in your heels and refusing to answer the questions you and betcoin (if in fact those are two different things) are just adding fuel to the fire and digging the hole you are in deeper.  People only evade and refuse to answer questions when telling the truth would expose something that they don't want exposed.  If Betcoin has nothing to hide and they were acting in my best interest all along I welcome them to prove it to me and to the forum by responding to my questions.  If you do I will be satisfied, and would no longer need to post to the forums looking for answers.  I only post here because I have gotten nowhere on Betcoin's site either publicly or privately.

[Quickseller]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

Most contracts have a clause that says something along the lines that if there is a dispute over a contract that a certain court will have jurisdiction over a lawsuit about the contract. If this is the case, then both parties would have consented for the particular court to have jurisdiction over the parties regarding that contract.

If the above did not happen, then in order for a court to have jurisdiction over a lawsuit, then one of the parties either needs to have assets in the location of the court, be physically located in the location of the court or regularly conduct business in the location of the court. If someone receives judgment in a jurisdiction in which assets are not located, then generally speaking a second lawsuit will need to be filed in a jurisdiction where assets are located in order to collect on the judgment.

Regardless of where a lawsuit would need to be filed, I do not care about what Judge Judy says about the case. The bottom line is that I view both betcoin's and betsoft's actions and business practices to be unfair, including their jackpot practices. To me, based on my independent research, and based on what betcoin has publicly stated, I believe that Jason should have received the full amount of the Jackpot.

The cost of litigating any dispute is always very expensive. A lot of the time, the entity with the larger budget for litigation is going to win because the other party will simply run out of money. Litigation is also going to be a wast of money/time if the party you are suing does not have assets period or does not have assets in a jurisdiction that will enforce a judgment in this kind of case. 

[ajareselde]

You seem to know a lot of information about betcoin.  Some of the things you are stating might only be known by someone who is on the inside working for betcoin.  Can you please explain your relationship with betcoin?  If you do work for betcoin stop wasting your time with these replies and answer my questions.  Betcoin would not be getting their reputation tarnished if they had just been straightforward and transparent.  This has never been my intention, and I am not looking to extort money from them.  If these questions had all been answered upfront in an honest way betcoin's reputation would have remained intact.  By digging in your heels and refusing to answer the questions you and betcoin (if in fact those are two different things) are just adding fuel to the fire and digging the hole you are in deeper.  People only evade and refuse to answer questions when telling the truth would expose something that they don't want exposed.  If Betcoin has nothing to hide and they were acting in my best interest all along I welcome them to prove it to me and to the forum by responding to my questions.  If you do I will be satisfied, and would no longer need to post to the forums looking for answers.  I only post here because I have gotten nowhere on Betcoin's site either publicly or privately.

I got dragged into this mess when your bad stance allowed creation of bullying and threatening atmosphere from competing casino affiliates/members/owners towards
members of betcoin.ag campaign.

So not only are the ones that enabled you to atleast get the settlement with betsoft on basis of nothing more than an oversight, an error, but also all others that
have nothing to do with the whole situation are being attacked.

You keep talking about dismissing the questions while i try to answer as much of them as i can, while at the same time you keep avoiding
only one i'm asking you; Do you honestly think betcoin.ag is a scam site?

[Quickseller]

I got dragged into this mess when your bad stance allowed creation of bullying and threatening atmosphere from competing casino affiliates/members/owners towards
members of betcoin.ag campaign.

You could have very well done the responsible thing and resigned from the campaign after it was disclosed how BetCoin's business/jackpot practices are. Nothing is forcing you to stay in the campaign.

So not only are the ones that enabled you to atleast get the settlement with betsoft on basis of nothing more than an oversight, an error,

I don't think there was an error in the TOS and/or the terms of the jackpot. I would equate the difference to be something more along the lines of a state run lottery (like Powerball) saying that anyone who matches all drawn numbers for a particular drawing wins the jackpot, then the lottery saying that they will not payout the jackpot because the numbers were drawn on the Wednesday drawing as opposed to the Saturday drawing, so you are instead entitled only to a small fraction of the jackpot, and there was never any mention of this rule anywhere publicly.

You keep talking about dismissing the questions while i try to answer as much of them as i can, while at the same time you keep avoiding
only one i'm asking you; Do you honestly think betcoin.ag is a scam site?

I think we both know that Jason's settlement agreement prevents him from answering this question. 

[cjmoles]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

Most contracts have a clause that says something along the lines that if there is a dispute over a contract that a certain court will have jurisdiction over a lawsuit about the contract. If this is the case, then both parties would have consented for the particular court to have jurisdiction over the parties regarding that contract.

If the above did not happen, then in order for a court to have jurisdiction over a lawsuit, then one of the parties either needs to have assets in the location of the court, be physically located in the location of the court or regularly conduct business in the location of the court. If someone receives judgment in a jurisdiction in which assets are not located, then generally speaking a second lawsuit will need to be filed in a jurisdiction where assets are located in order to collect on the judgment.

Regardless of where a lawsuit would need to be filed, I do not care about what Judge Judy says about the case. The bottom line is that I view both betcoin's and betsoft's actions and business practices to be unfair, including their jackpot practices. To me, based on my independent research, and based on what betcoin has publicly stated, I believe that Jason should have received the full amount of the Jackpot.

The cost of litigating any dispute is always very expensive. A lot of the time, the entity with the larger budget for litigation is going to win because the other party will simply run out of money. Litigation is also going to be a wast of money/time if the party you are suing does not have assets period or does not have assets in a jurisdiction that will enforce a judgment in this kind of case.  

I agree that the best resolution to this problem was in mediation, for many reasons.  The fact that a mediation process had even been considered is commendable because it would have been a "nasty" process otherwise.  There have been several similar instances with "brick and mortar" casinos regarding outsourced progressive jackpots and liability.  I have included two below as reference.  I included them because they are cases involving some of the largest providers in the industry which had gone through multiple levels of review.  I cited them here only as a reference to the complexity of the issue in the hopes that some of the dicta contained therein may be helpful.

(Arguments that demonstrate liability for outsourced progressives.)

Garrett GRIGGS and Stephen Livaudais v. HARRAH'S CASINO, Jazz Casino Corporation and IGT, Incorporated.
No. 2005-CA-0321.

"1.   A progressive slot machine is a machine that is linked by computer to similar slot machines in other casinos.   Each linked slot machine contributes money from that machine to a single jackpot, which is called a progressive jackpot.   The progressive jackpot is much larger than any jackpot a single slot machine could pay.   Often the manufacturer of the progressive slot machines is the owner of the machines and is responsible for paying the progressive jackpots that are won.   In the instant case, IGT manufactured and owned the Wheel of Fortune slot machine and was responsible for paying any progressive jackpots won on that machine."  ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html#footnote_ref_1 )

(Argument's that maybe in jasonort's favor against Betsoft.)


Supreme Court of Mississippi.  IGT v. Nancy KELLY.  No. 1998-CC-01783-SCT.  Decided: March 1, 2001

"¶ 25.   Accordingly, this Court finds the Harrison County Circuit Court was correct in affirming the Mississippi Gaming Commission's ruling, which found the Pokermania machine's signage to be ambiguous. We also conclude an administrative agency is not bound to follow authority in another jurisdiction and that the hearing examiner did not err by relying on a previous decision of the Mississippi Gaming Commission, which states ambiguity is to be resolved in favor of the patron.   The judgment of the Harrison County Circuit Court is affirmed, and the case is remanded to the circuit court for entry of a judgment specifying the method of payment in accordance with applicable law." ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ms-supreme-court/1440921.html )

These cases exemplify the complexity of the issues involved and demonstrate the value of the mediation process in trying to achieve an equitable resolution in this situation.

[Quickseller]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

Most contracts have a clause that says something along the lines that if there is a dispute over a contract that a certain court will have jurisdiction over a lawsuit about the contract. If this is the case, then both parties would have consented for the particular court to have jurisdiction over the parties regarding that contract.

If the above did not happen, then in order for a court to have jurisdiction over a lawsuit, then one of the parties either needs to have assets in the location of the court, be physically located in the location of the court or regularly conduct business in the location of the court. If someone receives judgment in a jurisdiction in which assets are not located, then generally speaking a second lawsuit will need to be filed in a jurisdiction where assets are located in order to collect on the judgment.

Regardless of where a lawsuit would need to be filed, I do not care about what Judge Judy says about the case. The bottom line is that I view both betcoin's and betsoft's actions and business practices to be unfair, including their jackpot practices. To me, based on my independent research, and based on what betcoin has publicly stated, I believe that Jason should have received the full amount of the Jackpot.

The cost of litigating any dispute is always very expensive. A lot of the time, the entity with the larger budget for litigation is going to win because the other party will simply run out of money. Litigation is also going to be a wast of money/time if the party you are suing does not have assets period or does not have assets in a jurisdiction that will enforce a judgment in this kind of case. 

I agree that the best resolution to this problem was in mediation, for many reasons.  The fact that a mediation process had even been considered is commendable because it would have been a "nasty" process otherwise.  There have been several similar instances with "brick and mortar" casinos regarding outsourced progressive jackpots and liability.  I have included two below as reference.  I included them because they are cases involving some of the largest providers in the industry which had gone through multiple levels of review.  I cited them here only as a reference to the complexity of the issue in the hopes that some of the dicta contained therein may be helpful.

(Arguments that demonstrate liability for outsourced progressives.)

Garrett GRIGGS and Stephen Livaudais v. HARRAH'S CASINO, Jazz Casino Corporation and IGT, Incorporated.
No. 2005-CA-0321.

"1.   A progressive slot machine is a machine that is linked by computer to similar slot machines in other casinos.   Each linked slot machine contributes money from that machine to a single jackpot, which is called a progressive jackpot.   The progressive jackpot is much larger than any jackpot a single slot machine could pay.   Often the manufacturer of the progressive slot machines is the owner of the machines and is responsible for paying the progressive jackpots that are won.   In the instant case, IGT manufactured and owned the Wheel of Fortune slot machine and was responsible for paying any progressive jackpots won on that machine."  ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html#footnote_ref_1 )

(Argument's that maybe in jasonort's favor against Betsoft.)


Supreme Court of Mississippi.  IGT v. Nancy KELLY.  No. 1998-CC-01783-SCT.  Decided: March 1, 2001

"¶ 25.   Accordingly, this Court finds the Harrison County Circuit Court was correct in affirming the Mississippi Gaming Commission's ruling, which found the Pokermania machine's signage to be ambiguous. We also conclude an administrative agency is not bound to follow authority in another jurisdiction and that the hearing examiner did not err by relying on a previous decision of the Mississippi Gaming Commission, which states ambiguity is to be resolved in favor of the patron.   The judgment of the Harrison County Circuit Court is affirmed, and the case is remanded to the circuit court for entry of a judgment specifying the method of payment in accordance with applicable law." ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ms-supreme-court/1440921.html )

These cases exemplify the complexity of the issues involved and demonstrate the value of the mediation process in trying to achieve an equitable resolution in this situation.

I would not say that either of those cases are in favor of BetCoin. Even if BetSoft is the entity who is legally required to payout a jackpot, it remains that it is BetCoin.ag who directed the customer to BetSoft, and it is BetCoin that, despite being very well aware of Betsoft's history, has decided to continue to send customers to BetSoft.

Regardless of the above, I do not care what the courts say (or would say) about the case. What I care about is what is fair, and if I think it is appropriate to trust BetCoin.ag in the future. If a website is sending people to a third party that has a history of not paying out it's obligations when it should, then yes, I would think that website is a scam.

[TwitchySeal]

mediation?  who was going to mediate? when was it discussed?

are you implying the casino that jasonort was playing at was the mediator?  or thepogg.com

[jasonort]

You seem to know a lot of information about betcoin.  Some of the things you are stating might only be known by someone who is on the inside working for betcoin.  Can you please explain your relationship with betcoin?  If you do work for betcoin stop wasting your time with these replies and answer my questions.  Betcoin would not be getting their reputation tarnished if they had just been straightforward and transparent.  This has never been my intention, and I am not looking to extort money from them.  If these questions had all been answered upfront in an honest way betcoin's reputation would have remained intact.  By digging in your heels and refusing to answer the questions you and betcoin (if in fact those are two different things) are just adding fuel to the fire and digging the hole you are in deeper.  People only evade and refuse to answer questions when telling the truth would expose something that they don't want exposed.  If Betcoin has nothing to hide and they were acting in my best interest all along I welcome them to prove it to me and to the forum by responding to my questions.  If you do I will be satisfied, and would no longer need to post to the forums looking for answers.  I only post here because I have gotten nowhere on Betcoin's site either publicly or privately.

I got dragged into this mess when your bad stance allowed creation of bullying and threatening atmosphere from competing casino affiliates/members/owners towards
members of betcoin.ag campaign.

So not only are the ones that enabled you to atleast get the settlement with betsoft on basis of nothing more than an oversight, an error, but also all others that
have nothing to do with the whole situation are being attacked.

You keep talking about dismissing the questions while i try to answer as much of them as i can, while at the same time you keep avoiding
only one i'm asking you; Do you honestly think betcoin.ag is a scam site?

OK.  I will be civil and I will answer your question first.  Do I think it is an outright scam?  No more than any other casino (the house always has the edge).  Do I think that they put profit ahead of players?  Absolutely.  Am I currently comfortable wagering there?  No.  The reason that I have not wagered there since settling is this is because in order to be comfortable I need to have my questions that I have asked them answered.  I need to understand their relationship with their software providers.  I want to understand who is ultimately responsible for paying me if I win.  Now let me ask you a question, and please do me the courtesy of answering it.  If this spin had happened in a brick and mortar casino in las vegas regulated by a legitimate gaming authority and I hit five yachts on the payline would the casino have had to pay me the jackpot?