[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[dhenson]

I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

[luke.watson]

It looks like someone put in a sell order of over 2k shares at .00089999 (probably someone who bought at .0005) at the same time kslaughter had a large sell order at .0009.

kslaughter then changed his .0009 sell order to .00089998 so it would jump in front of the .0008999 sell order.

The shananagans continue...

I think more folks would take this IPO more seriously if the IPO price wasn't being manipulated so blatantly. For example, kslaughter said there would be 20,000,000 early adopter shares available at .0005, but has continued to try to force the price of early adopter shares up with large sell orders at .0005, .0006, then .0007, .0008, and then .0009.

As I was typing this email, a large block of shares just showed up at .0008!

Bakewell only wishes he had these talents

Its called a market.

No, I believe it's called market manipulation.

AMC is a hybrid Bitcoin mining and development cooperative describing itself as "the next big mining cooperative" is releasing today an offering to early-adopters of Five million (5,000,000) BitFunder virtual shares and issuing another twenty million (20,000,000) BitFunder virtual shares which will be used for the growth and expansion fund, which will receive a total of 100% of the company's virtual-currency profits after all expenses until the total dividends paid is equal to the offering price of .0005 BTC per share and 12 months have elapsed since the initial offering. The Cooperative is hoping to raise up to 2,500 Bitcoins. The offering price will be 0.0005 Bitcoins for the first 20,000,000 early-adopter shares thereafter the price will be .001 BTC per share. If demand is strong enough then share prices may increase throughout the IPO.

The first 20m shares were to be sold at BTC0.0005, the market is now at 40m shares,  it's not clear how we have got to 40m from the stated 5m and 20m but I guess it's to do with the rapid growth AMC has seen

The second issue of 20m shares should be selling at BTC0.001 by the estimated time they would be released, but the stock is doing very well now and I can see why slaughter wants to stock as many miners as possible, to get their foot in the door so they can compete with Avalon

I think slaughter is in his right to sell the shares as he can - in the long run, it will pay off by allowing him to purchase the 20,000 chips he has promised

I agree he should be more open about business but people need to understand he's clearly very busy. He's promised us a lot and we are right to expect high standards, but if he spends all his time responding to everyone grilling him all the time, he's not going to get a lot of work done..

[abuelau]

I think slaughter is in his right to sell the shares as he can - in the long run, it will pay off by allowing him to purchase the 20,000 chips he has promised

I agree he should be more open about business but people need to understand he's clearly very busy. He's promised us a lot and we are right to expect high standards, but if he spends all his time responding to everyone grilling him all the time, he's not going to get a lot of work done..

+1 to that

[kslaughter]

I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

The .0005 plan was not working very well.  We only sold 400,000 shares in the first 3 weeks of the IPO when you could buy as many shares as you wanted up to balance of the 5,000,000.  As soon as I took the 4.6 million shares down, the market took off. Now the price is floating with the demand.

[auto2nr1]

I think more folks would take this IPO more seriously if the IPO price wasn't being manipulated so blatantly. For example, kslaughter said there would be 20,000,000 early adopter shares available at .0005, but has continued to try to force the price of early adopter shares up with large sell orders at .0005, .0006, then .0007, .0008, and then .0009.

Same here. I was looking to purchase the IPO in multiple blocks at .0005. Then all of a sudden those shares were taken off the market. So where are the early adopter shares now?

[dhenson]

The .0005 plan was not working very well.  We only sold 400,000 shares in the first 3 weeks of the IPO when you could buy as many shares as you wanted up to balance of the 5,000,000.  As soon as I took the 4.6 million shares down, the market took off. Now the price is floating with the demand.

I recognize that.  I'm not suggesting you dump 5mil shares at .0005 (though I would definitely grab some more).  I'm suggesting that you place incremental Ask orders like you have been doing.  The difference is that you stop removing the orders or trying to undercut the market.  People just want stability and predictable behavior.  State what your plan is and stick to it.

Please don't think I'm down on AMC, I'm not.  I'm holding AMC long.  Your current actions are simply scaring off investors.

[bbxx]

yeah.

i bought 1200 shares at 0.0008999 few hours ago

and now it is way lower.

i feel something is fishy here

like on alternative cryptocurrencies, pump and dump worthless coins...

i am glad that i lost only ASCMINER dyvidend from this week and some mining with my 1.2g rig.

very risky assets... some early adopters wanna cashout.

price will go to .00050005 i think, 40% loss imho

[abuelau]

Great, as soon as it comes closer to 0.0005 I will buy more. This is one of the only investments with some level of security for the upcoming asic take over.

[Vbs]

Great, as soon as it comes closer to 0.0005 I will buy more. This is one of the only investments with some level of security for the upcoming asic take over.

I'm not expecting (but don't quote me on that ) the share price to go any lower than they already are unless there is the specific need for it. If it's KS selling at 0.0008 it must be for quickly getting the last coins needed for the next 10k chip Avalon batch.

[auto2nr1]

Great, as soon as it comes closer to 0.0005 I will buy more. This is one of the only investments with some level of security for the upcoming asic take over.

I have a couple of friends interested in buying the shares. Just waiting for the right time when it gets back down to 0.0005 a share.

[abuelau]

Well I managed to get some at 0.0070 so I am happy. If it comes any lower I will get them too.

[ChronoX5]

I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

I agree.

The situation right now is kind of unfortunate. If he keeps the pricing like it is right now there is a lower incentive to buy for new investors and people will accuse him of price fixing. But if he dumps new shares on the market at 0.0005 the people who bought in higher will get mad. I don't real see a way where he doesn't come of as the bad guy.

[stereotype]

Well I managed to get some at 0.0070 so I am happy. If it comes any lower I will get them too.

I was sitting just underneath you. 

[lewicki]

PM between Ken and I,

Ken,

I have few questions about what funds are needed for the design/manufacturing of chips.

• Most, if not all of the revenue of share sales seems to be going towards chip purchases. Could you enlighten us as to what your plans are for converting from a solely "outside chip purchase" revenue based system to a design/manufacturer/sales revenue based one?
• What kind of capital is needed on the production side? Is it fully funded? Are future share sales going to pay for that?
• Was the chip/avalon buying solely to get your feet wet and into the game before the chip manufacturing took off
• If everything goes to plan, what are your plans after every share has received a total dividend value of at least .0005?

Thanks again

We are working with a semiconductor company to develop our own 45nm and 28nm bitcoin mining chips.  This will cut the cost
of our bitcoin mining machines.  VMC is working on getting its shopping cart to accept bitcoins, then we will start Pre-Orders for
August 31 shipping.

VMC will be funded by me personally, plus pre-order sales, plus a VMC offering.  Capital needs: Lots, manufacturing site, smt equipment,
employees, etc.  Not sales of AMC shares, maybe VMC shares.

Yes, the avalon/chip purchase is to get us up and running as fast as possible.

All 100,000,000 shares will receive dividends are 12 months from the IPO.  At this point the growth and expansion fund would be receiving 20% of the dividends.  AMC would be receiving 35% of the revenue if only 5,000,000 shares are sold.  This 35% would be used only for direct mining expenses, and if
needed wages if we have 4 or more employees. The 35% could be reinvested into more mining equipment.

Thanks Ken

[Deprived]

I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

I agree.

The situation right now is kind of unfortunate. If he keeps the pricing like it is right now there is a lower incentive to buy for new investors and people will accuse him of price fixing. But if he dumps new shares on the market at 0.0005 the people who bought in higher will get mad. I don't real see a way where he doesn't come of as the bad guy.

Well that's what happens when you fuck around with a non-transparent selling policy and price manipulation to try to sell more shares in the short-term.  You attract short-term sales at the price of long-term credibility/sales.  I've seen it plenty of times and it's never ended up working well for the issuer.

The problem many issuers face is that they try to sell more shares than there's actually demand for.  The policy of early-bird shares followed by a sharp price rise hits problems as soon as the sharp price-rsie occurs - as the initial investors then get to profit-take, undermining further sales.  And why wouldn't they do that - as there'll surely be more IPOs along shortly where they can make a 50%+ profit in a few weeks by flipping early-bird shares rather than holding on long-term with much greater risk for a massively lower APR.

Where AML varies from other ones burned by messing with this stupid sales policy (e.g. BitPride, ZigGap, BTCQuick on Bitfunder) is that it didn't even manage to sell all the early-bird shares.  The three listed sold all those - but then ran into undercutters cashing out profit when trying to sell the rest at much higher prices.  Guess every IPO has to learn the same lessons the hard way - specifically :

1.  Fucking with your own share price to raise it will only attract short-term speculative investment - a higher price will NOT attract new long-term investment that wouldn't invest at the lower price.
2.  If you sell some shares cheap then other identical shares at a higher price EXPECT a lot of of the ones who bought cheap to undercut you.

The exception to this is when a rise in price follows ACTUAL decent profits (see S.DICE - where higher priced tiers did sell out after months of steady real, not projected, profit).  That's profits that have been made - not fantasy projected ones based on being able to add hashpower (that has't even been built) to the network without changing the network's hashpower and without anyone else buying/building/deploying any ASICs at all.

From having seen plenty of other attempts at the same thing I'd expect the price to move around for a bit then slowly fall back towards the initial price as people who bought thinking they could cash out at the next price tier realise it isn't actually going to get there any time soon.  The drop can be delayed - but made sharper when it happens - by continued attempts to manipulate market prices.  The price CAN be kept high if sufficient capital is used to maintain bid-walls - but quite possibly at the cost of actual sold shares dropping and the retained capital/share falling as it gets thrown away buying back shares at a price higher than they were sold at.

Disclosure : I regularly buy/sell during IPOs - there's generally more profit (and much less risk) flipping during IPOs than holding the shares for any length of time.  I currently hold 0 AMC but HAVE bought and sold a small amount (profitably) for my fund.

[stereotype]

I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

I agree.

The situation right now is kind of unfortunate. If he keeps the pricing like it is right now there is a lower incentive to buy for new investors and people will accuse him of price fixing. But if he dumps new shares on the market at 0.0005 the people who bought in higher will get mad. I don't real see a way where he doesn't come of as the bad guy.

Agreed. Tough to judge, but unfortunately necessary to achieve the sated goals. Quicker they get sold, quicker a line can be drawn.

Would a forum auction work here? In itself, it generates interest. Seems to work well for AM shares, the last few weeks on these boards.

[kslaughter]

I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

I agree.

The situation right now is kind of unfortunate. If he keeps the pricing like it is right now there is a lower incentive to buy for new investors and people will accuse him of price fixing. But if he dumps new shares on the market at 0.0005 the people who bought in higher will get mad. I don't real see a way where he doesn't come of as the bad guy.

Well that's what happens when you fuck around with a non-transparent selling policy and price manipulation to try to sell more shares in the short-term.  You attract short-term sales at the price of long-term credibility/sales.  I've seen it plenty of times and it's never ended up working well for the issuer.

The problem many issuers face is that they try to sell more shares than there's actually demand for.  The policy of early-bird shares followed by a sharp price rise hits problems as soon as the sharp price-rsie occurs - as the initial investors then get to profit-take, undermining further sales.  And why wouldn't they do that - as there'll surely be more IPOs along shortly where they can make a 50%+ profit in a few weeks by flipping early-bird shares rather than holding on long-term with much greater risk for a massively lower APR.

Where AML varies from other ones burned by messing with this stupid sales policy (e.g. BitPride, ZigGap, BTCQuick on Bitfunder) is that it didn't even manage to sell all the early-bird shares.  The three listed sold all those - but then ran into undercutters cashing out profit when trying to sell the rest at much higher prices.  Guess every IPO has to learn the same lessons the hard way - specifically :

1.  Fucking with your own share price to raise it will only attract short-term speculative investment - a higher price will NOT attract new long-term investment that wouldn't invest at the lower price.
2.  If you sell some shares cheap then other identical shares at a higher price EXPECT a lot of of the ones who bought cheap to undercut you.

The exception to this is when a rise in price follows ACTUAL decent profits (see S.DICE - where higher priced tiers did sell out after months of steady real, not projected, profit).  That's profits that have been made - not fantasy projected ones based on being able to add hashpower (that has't even been built) to the network without changing the network's hashpower and without anyone else buying/building/deploying any ASICs at all.

From having seen plenty of other attempts at the same thing I'd expect the price to move around for a bit then slowly fall back towards the initial price as people who bought thinking they could cash out at the next price tier realise it isn't actually going to get there any time soon.  The drop can be delayed - but made sharper when it happens - by continued attempts to manipulate market prices.  The price CAN be kept high if sufficient capital is used to maintain bid-walls - but quite possibly at the cost of actual sold shares dropping and the retained capital/share falling as it gets thrown away buying back shares at a price higher than they were sold at.

Disclosure : I regularly buy/sell during IPOs - there's generally more profit (and much less risk) flipping during IPOs than holding the shares for any length of time.  I currently hold 0 AMC but HAVE bought and sold a small amount (profitably) for my fund.

Nice, +1

[Vbs]

Well that's what happens when you fuck around with a non-transparent selling policy and price manipulation to try to sell more shares in the short-term.  You attract short-term sales at the price of long-term credibility/sales.  I've seen it plenty of times and it's never ended up working well for the issuer.

The problem many issuers face is that they try to sell more shares than there's actually demand for.  The policy of early-bird shares followed by a sharp price rise hits problems as soon as the sharp price-rsie occurs - as the initial investors then get to profit-take, undermining further sales.  And why wouldn't they do that - as there'll surely be more IPOs along shortly where they can make a 50%+ profit in a few weeks by flipping early-bird shares rather than holding on long-term with much greater risk for a massively lower APR.

Where AML varies from other ones burned by messing with this stupid sales policy (e.g. BitPride, ZigGap, BTCQuick on Bitfunder) is that it didn't even manage to sell all the early-bird shares.  The three listed sold all those - but then ran into undercutters cashing out profit when trying to sell the rest at much higher prices.  Guess every IPO has to learn the same lessons the hard way - specifically :

1.  Fucking with your own share price to raise it will only attract short-term speculative investment - a higher price will NOT attract new long-term investment that wouldn't invest at the lower price.
2.  If you sell some shares cheap then other identical shares at a higher price EXPECT a lot of of the ones who bought cheap to undercut you.

The exception to this is when a rise in price follows ACTUAL decent profits (see S.DICE - where higher priced tiers did sell out after months of steady real, not projected, profit).  That's profits that have been made - not fantasy projected ones based on being able to add hashpower (that has't even been built) to the network without changing the network's hashpower and without anyone else buying/building/deploying any ASICs at all.

From having seen plenty of other attempts at the same thing I'd expect the price to move around for a bit then slowly fall back towards the initial price as people who bought thinking they could cash out at the next price tier realise it isn't actually going to get there any time soon.  The drop can be delayed - but made sharper when it happens - by continued attempts to manipulate market prices.  The price CAN be kept high if sufficient capital is used to maintain bid-walls - but quite possibly at the cost of actual sold shares dropping and the retained capital/share falling as it gets thrown away buying back shares at a price higher than they were sold at.

Disclosure : I regularly buy/sell during IPOs - there's generally more profit (and much less risk) flipping during IPOs than holding the shares for any length of time.  I currently hold 0 AMC but HAVE bought and sold a small amount (profitably) for my fund.

You hit the nail in the head, as always Deprived. Thanks for the input!

[dhenson]

Ever thought of hiring someone to manage the IPO so you could focus your time on the company?  Think of how much credibility / interest a long time respected member could bring to AMC.

You yourself have mentioned hiring additional employees.

[kslaughter]

Ever thought of hiring someone to manage the IPO so you could focus your time on the company?  Think of how much credibility / interest a long time respected member could bring to AMC.

You yourself have mentioned hiring additional employees.

Oh, yes we will be adding employees, mostly to VMC.  AMC only has provisions for wages if we have 4 or more employees.  Right now we are putting AMC resources into increasing the cooperatives hash rate as fast as we can.

It won't be long before our credibility goes up.