[ANN][The Original Multipool - Scrypt/SHA256/Scrypt-N/X11] multipool.us

[Hippie Tech]

I am curious what the theory is behind after I get the coins, is it more profitable to sell them as soon as I acquire them or hold on to them?

On one hand, you can make sure that you get the profits from whatever coin your mining if you sell right away, but on the other, waiting can allow the value to increase or also decrease and the coin can die.  I was just wondering if anyone else had any insight or theory about holding vs selling right away.

Pools like this one should be avoided or banned because they are a kick in the face to the early adopters/ supporters of the coins targeted.

This also creates alot of extra work trying to sell alts that no one, besides the exchange bots, will want to buy. By the time your coins will have confirmed, the well timed pump will have long been dumped and the miner will make a fraction of what was expected.

HT xD

I figured something like this would be said eventually.  Look, the fact is that people are already coin hopping manually or by other means (cryptoswitcher, etc.)

If the coin developers don't like people hopping on and off their coin, they should take steps to stabilize the difficulty.  Some coins have done this with varying amounts of success.  I am under no obligation to help 'early adopters' of any coin make money.  I am also under no obligation to provide infrastructure to coin developers without any compensation. 

I have put a lot of work into this pool (practically all my free time since April), and I am spending my own time and money to provide an extremely stable and reliable infrastructure.  If I add a coin to my pool it will be under my terms and nobody else's.  If the ARG, LKY or PXC or any other heavily premined altcoin developers want me to add a general use pool for their coin or open up their coin's port for direct mining they can contact me and maybe we can arrange something.

The fact people are already coin hoping is no reason to give them a completely hands off way of doing it, and doesn't magically absolve you from being part of the problem.   Its not the coin devs that don't like it, its the people mining the coin the 99% of the time its not top of coinchoose (presumably because they believe the coin has merit). Your pool hops on, owns the network for 20-30min until diff adjusts, then hops off, leaving the actual coin supporters left with another grind at a higher than required difficulty.  Remember what happened to FTC, and being stuck on a ridiculously high diff?  Your doing similar, on purpose, on an almost daily basis.  Thankfully most coins adjust at an appropriate rate to not require hard forks these days, but it doesn't mean the affect isn't felt. 

Call it free market, call it whatever you like, at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact its overall a pretty negative impact on the coins involved and the community behind them.  Perhaps your right, and many of these don't deserve to survive in the long run, especially if they 'can't handle this', but not sure that makes it any better that your contributing to their problems.

Props to you on a technical level, for putting this all together.   I respect what you've managed to build, but hate the concept and end results of it in pretty much every way.   Good luck to you, and to those mining at your pool.  Its hard to envision they are actually making what they hope to be by the time they've mined any significant amount of coins, but guess they must be if its that popular. 

To each their own.

+1 PRECISELY my thoughts on this. Just because people do it already doesn't mean you should make it easier for them. This and the integration into CGWatcher and other utilities will begin to kill some coins that deserve better.

Thanks for the input guys (You too ahmed_bodi.) and for not taking this personal, flound1129.

This is nothing, btw. Just wait until the scrypted asics hit the scene.... as if it hasn't happened already.

HT xD

[flound1129]

This also creates alot of extra work trying to sell alts that no one, besides the exchange bots, will want to buy. By the time your coins will have confirmed, the well timed pump will have long been dumped and the miner will make a fraction of what was expected.

HT xD

You can ask others here, but this hasn't been my experience.  Although there have been few instances when the multiport switched due to a pump, most of the time it's due to a difficulty drop.  And I generally do not have problems selling my coins at or near the price they were at when we were mining.

I've also started using a weighted average of multiple exchange prices, and using the highest bid price rather than last price on some exchanges in an attempt to avoid pump-based switches.

[flound1129]

Thanks for the input guys and for not taking this personal, flound1129. You too ahmed_bodi.

This is nothing, btw. Just wait until the scrypted asics hit the scene.... as if it hasn't happened already.

HT xD

Nothing to take personal.  I understand the other point of view but I believe my reasoning is sound.  I also understand how my point of view may not seem right or even be offensive to a "true believer" in a particular coin, but I am not one of those.

[Armchair Miner]

I imagine, in a good coin, difficulty should go lower simply when there is more demand for mining of that coin.

For instance, when a high number of transactions would demand higher hash power to process these transactions.

So lower difficulty should be an invitation to miners and multipool. Why would it be wrong to accept the invitation? Beats me.

Of course, if the coin is badly designed, the difficulty will go all over the place, oscillate, feedback-amplify, etc, and create havoc. But it is up to the designer of the coin software to think ahead about this and prevent it.

[erk]

I imagine, in a good coin, difficulty should go lower simply when there is more demand for mining of that coin.

For instance, when a high number of transactions would demand higher hash power to process these transactions.

So lower difficulty should be an invitation to miners and multipool. Why would it be wrong to accept the invitation? Beats me.

Of course, if the coin is badly designed, the difficulty will go all over the place, oscillate, feedback-amplify, etc, and create havoc. But it is up to the designer of the coin software to think ahead about this and prevent it.

When ARG went to low difficulty a little while ago, there was hardly anyone mining it for 10min, then multipool bounced over to ARG and within 17min, mined 250 blocks that should have taken over 2 hrs to mine, then multipool bounced off to mine NVC leaving the small group of dedicated ARG miners to get the next 250 ARG blocks now at high difficulty, which looks like that will take around 12hrs to achieve, just so multipool can do a 17min rape again when the dedicated miners have used 12hrs of their electricity!

I see no evidence of any other switching pool doing this to ARG, just multipool.in, I watch the sequence of events very carefully this time.

The coin will never be successful if forced to spend  97% of each day at high difficulty because of the >51% burst from mutlipool every 12hours.


You have to ask yourself why do some pool operators go out of their way to prevent their pool going over 50% of the network hash? They do things like stop registrations, increase the pool fees, whatever to try and keep it under control.

[kslavik]

I imagine, in a good coin, difficulty should go lower simply when there is more demand for mining of that coin.

For instance, when a high number of transactions would demand higher hash power to process these transactions.

So lower difficulty should be an invitation to miners and multipool. Why would it be wrong to accept the invitation? Beats me.

Of course, if the coin is badly designed, the difficulty will go all over the place, oscillate, feedback-amplify, etc, and create havoc. But it is up to the designer of the coin software to think ahead about this and prevent it.

When ARG went to low difficulty a little while ago, there was hardly anyone mining it for 10min, then multipool bounced over to ARG and within 17min, mined 250 blocks that should have taken over 2 hrs to mine, then multipool bounced off to mine NVC leaving the small group of dedicated ARG miners to get the next 250 ARG blocks now at high difficulty, which looks like that will take around 12hrs to achieve, just so multipool can do a 17min rape again when the dedicated miners have used 12hrs of their electricity!

I see no evidence of any other switching pool doing this to ARG, just multipool.in, I watch the sequence of events very carefully this time.

The coin will never be successful if forced to spend  97% of each day at high difficulty because of the >51% bust from mutlipool every 12hours.

Why would anyone mine a coin if it is not profitable? Why would anyone mine a coin if it is in no way better than a bunch of other coins out there (except of profit)? Nobody mines ARG for the good of the humanity, people mine it for profit. What do you think is different about ARG that makes it valuable?

The only thing those scrypt coins are good for, is to keep difficulty lower for BTC and LTC by diverting hashing power to themselves.

I don't see your point about electricity being wasted. The power companies would produce as much energy as market requires. Mining coins doesn't exhaust supply of electricity - it is limitless - it is not a finite resource like oil. The only thing wasted is resources of the miners who are bad with math.

[Armchair Miner]

Meantime at :7777 - Calculated Profitability (last 24hr) 1.9 - 2.4  --Congratulations Flaund ')

[erk]

s.

I don't see your point about electricity being wasted. The power companies would produce as much energy as market requires. Mining coins doesn't exhaust supply of electricity - it is limitless - it is not a finite resource like oil. The only thing wasted is resources of the miners who are bad with math.

If I  and a small handful of other miners have to spend 12 hours mining 250 blocks that should have taken only 2 hours, just to get the difficulty back down, that's a waste of my electricity, those 12 hours are seriously unprofitable for me. If we don't do it then the coin is dead, the difficulty will never come back down. People don't seem to get what's going on here, the ARG difficulty is high because of multipool.in, nobody else. Let me rephrase it a bit to exaggerate the point, ARG is under DDoS attack by multipool.in who are forcing the coin into a near permanent high difficulty state. Does that spell it out a bit clearer?



Every now and then the other coins get a bad profitabilty score, because ARG is up a bit on Cryptsy, so the pool will switch back to ARG at high diff for a while and help chew through the 250 block but it doesn't lower the diff much unless it was already a fair way into the next 230 blocks.

My advise would be not to include coins into the multipool rotation when it's obvious that multipool will have more than 51% of the network hash rate.

[flound1129]

If I  and a small handful of other miners have to spend 12 hours mining 250 blocks that should have taken only 2 hours, just to get the difficulty back down, that's a waste of my electricity

Then don't mine it?  Who is forcing you to?

I don't know why someone would create a p2p currency and then complain when people mine it.  Maybe you are looking for a centralized currency.

[kslavik]

s.

I don't see your point about electricity being wasted. The power companies would produce as much energy as market requires. Mining coins doesn't exhaust supply of electricity - it is limitless - it is not a finite resource like oil. The only thing wasted is resources of the miners who are bad with math.

If I  and a small handful of other miners have to spend 12 hours mining 250 blocks that should have taken only 2 hours, just to get the difficulty back down, that's a waste of my electricity, those 12 hours are seriously unprofitable for me. If we don't do it then the coin is dead, the difficulty will never come back down. People don't seem to get what's going on here, the ARG difficulty is high because of multipool.in, nobody else. Let me rephrase it a bit to exaggerate the point, ARG is under DDoS attack by multipool.in who are forcing the coin into a near permanent high difficulty state. Does that spell it out a bit clearer?

Every now and then the other coins get a bad profitabilty score, because ARG is up a bit on Cryptsy, so the pool will switch back to ARG at high diff for a while and help chew through the 250 block but it doesn't lower the diff much unless it was already a fair way into the next 230 blocks.

My advise would be not to include coins into the multipool rotation when it's obvious that multipool will have more than 51% of the network hash rate.

You never answered my primary question: why does this coin deserve to be alive? How is it better than anything else? If you cannot answer this question, the coin deserve to die. Don't waste your resource mining it - it will be dead soon enough.

[ozoner]

This debate is awesome. I've just gone down the shop and bought some coke and popcorn (bought with the extra revenue from my dirty, multipool-induced coin hopping deeds) and am sitting down and enjoying the show....

Without seeming ungrateful for all his hard work, all Flound has done is saved everyone the hassle of spending an hour or two configuring cryptoswitcher. All cryptoswitcher has done is stopped someone needing to sit in front of their rig 24/7 and switching to whichever coin coinchoose.com says is the best right now. All coinchoose has done is stop someone needing to keep manually checking difficulties all the time. And so on.

Get over it kids. If developers want a coin resistant to hopping, develop a better coin.

[jdebunt]

Well, on a more positive note... Mining back here for 24+ hours, everything works great, so thanks for the fforts

[B.T.Coin]

This debate is awesome. I've just gone down the shop and bought some coke and popcorn (bought with the extra revenue from my dirty, multipool-induced coin hopping deeds) and am sitting down and enjoying the show....

Yes, I'm enjoying the show as well. And the reason I can sit down, relax and enjoy the show is because multipool.in is doing all the hard work for me and I have time for other things
If you're a true believer in a coin then mine it 24/7 and stop complaining here for bringing more hashpower to the coin. If you want to maximize your profitability and have some money left after you pay your electricity bills then use multipool.in and thank Flound for his hard work.

[ahmed_bodi]

the simplicity of it Is multipool and coinchoose although they got over various technical difficulties. Dont care about anyone except themselves, also your lots logic is flawed, if everyone decided not to mine the coins they support after multipool has royally fucked the diff, then multipool would have no coins to switch to, so personally you guys should be thanking us miners for fixing the shit you cause

[B.T.Coin]

the simplicity of it Is multipool and coinchoose although they got over various technical difficulties. Dont care about anyone except themselves, also your lots logic is flawed, if everyone decided not to mine the coins they support after multipool has royally fucked the diff, then multipool would have no coins to switch to, so personally you guys should be thanking us miners for fixing the shit you cause

OK, if you insist: Thank you loyal miners for fixing the shit we cause. LOL

But seriously, ever since ARG, LKY and PXC have come on the multiport their value has doubled or even tripled on the exchanges in only a few days. Coincidence or maybe not?
Maybe the loyal miners should thank the multiport miners for livening up the markets and tripling the value of the coins they have tucked away because they love them too much to sell.

[kagula323]

This also creates alot of extra work trying to sell alts that no one, besides the exchange bots, will want to buy. By the time your coins will have confirmed, the well timed pump will have long been dumped and the miner will make a fraction of what was expected.

HT xD

You can ask others here, but this hasn't been my experience.  Although there have been few instances when the multiport switched due to a pump, most of the time it's due to a difficulty drop.  And I generally do not have problems selling my coins at or near the price they were at when we were mining.

I've also started using a weighted average of multiple exchange prices, and using the highest bid price rather than last price on some exchanges in an attempt to avoid pump-based switches.

Where do you flound usually sell your coins? Like LKY, ARG and PXC?

[Aurum]

"...scrypted asics hit the scene.... as if it hasn't happened already."
HT xD

Do share, who is selling ASICs for scrypt???

[Aurum]

I've been so inspired by this debate I brought in 6 more gig. GO MULTIPORT!!!

Now if I could just get my 5970s to mine scrypt I'd add 4 more 

[Torn]

I've been so inspired by this debate I brought in 6 more gig. GO MULTIPORT!!!

Now if I could just get my 5970s to mine scrypt I'd add 4 more 

You need 4 alligator clips with some 12ga wires.. attach 2 to PSU out 12V and other ends to your nipples. On 3, hit switch. Magic Scrypt!

T.

[rovchris]

The fact people are already coin hoping is no reason to give them a completely hands off way of doing it, and doesn't magically absolve you from being part of the problem.   Its not the coin devs that don't like it, its the people mining the coin the 99% of the time its not top of coinchoose (presumably because they believe the coin has merit). Your pool hops on, owns the network for 20-30min until diff adjusts, then hops off, leaving the actual coin supporters left with another grind at a higher than required difficulty.  Remember what happened to FTC, and being stuck on a ridiculously high diff?  Your doing similar, on purpose, on an almost daily basis.  Thankfully most coins adjust at an appropriate rate to not require hard forks these days, but it doesn't mean the affect isn't felt.  

The FTC developers addressed the problem and it is now not a problem for that coin anymore.  It's not my or my miners' fault if other coins, even with the benefit of prior knowledge of what happened to FTC's, continue to build copycat coins from LTC source without tweaking anything to avoid this.

I'd also like to note that 'coin jumping' wouldn't be as much of a problem if coin devs built an organic base of supporters rather than bribing exchanges to add their coin as the first thing they do.

As I mentioned, generally at least coins these days are built so as not to require a hard fork like in FTC's case, but it doesn't mean the affect isn't felt by every other miner mining the coin outside of coinchooses 30min window of profitability.  

Coin jumping also wouldn't be as much of a problem if your pool and its hundreds of Mh/s didn't hop around on purpose, automatically, every single day.  Yah there are individual programs out there (as someone previously linked), but even that is on a per miner level (and in one case doesn't actually appear to automate any switching based on another websites data), its just for when a person decides to mine a new coin.  

All these coins your railing on for having no real support, or bribing exchanges, or not building a userbase ect. would probably be dead by now if not for coin hoping, at which point you'd then see not all the coins are in this same boat.  Some would survive just fine.

They'll be dead when there are no more BTC offers for them on cryptsy and not a minute sooner.  Neither I nor my pool create rubes willing to buy a coin.  You can thank the shitcoin marketing services for that.

Your starting a dangerous race to the bottom, where no one actually cares about anything but a profitability number on a website, that is likely out of date by the time they have said coins anyways.   Building a community, infrastructure, a strong base, people hopping coins on a daily basis aren't contributing to any of that...so...what are they contributing to then? What are you?

Miners are looking to pay their electric bills and make money on top of that.  If you expect them to act in a selfless way you are dreaming.  If you expect people in this community not to take advantage of a weakness in coin design to profit then you are also dreaming.

I am providing a service that people want.  If miners didn't care about profit there would be no multipool, there'd be no coinchoose, there'd be no cryptsy, and for that matter there'd be no argentum, or bitcoin or litecoin either.

Adapt or die.

I would like to add my 2 cents.

At first I thought multipool was a bad idea for the alt coin community but it actually has an extremely useful purpose in the development of highly resilient coins.

Take BTC for example - now the network is more centralised than ever it only requires a couple of the large mining pools to go offline at the same time and then  transaction confirmation times are going to increase massively. BTC is extremely bad at adjusting to sudden violent swings in network hashrate.

What might be spawned from all this may in fact be the future of truly resilient crypto currencies.

The law of unintended consequences!