[Group Buy#1] Avalon ASICs CHIPS! Using JohnK as escrow! FINISHED!

[wrenchmonkey]

I vote for refund. I think, guys who want to wait for shipment would be better off taking refund and buying Avalon chips at a discount, better chances at ROI that way.

If there were Avalon chips available for a discount I'd be all for it.  I just haven't seen that option aside from one or two offers from group buyers.  That's why I said earlier that it would be nice to see what compensation options Yifu mentioned might be available.

Yifu mentioned only one option. That was a refund now, with the possibility of re-purchasing at a discount later. All other options were suggested by others, and rejected by Yifu.

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[bigbeninlondon]

I vote for refund. I think, guys who want to wait for shipment would be better off taking refund and buying Avalon chips at a discount, better chances at ROI that way.

If there were Avalon chips available for a discount I'd be all for it.  I just haven't seen that option aside from one or two offers from group buyers.  That's why I said earlier that it would be nice to see what compensation options Yifu mentioned might be available.

Yifu mentioned only one option. That was a refund now, with the possibility of re-purchasing at a discount later. All other options were suggested by others, and rejected by Yifu.

While I have no problems issue refunds, compensating for delay and such, I got no patience for people complaining when their orders are not late. Not too surprisingly, the people complaining the loudest are people whose order are not late yet(so more people refund and they can get their chips earlier maybe?), and people who have no orders(standard trolls of bitcointalk).

Most people who have chip orders are much more understanding to the situation, whom are either taking refunds, or working out some sort of compensation model.  

Emphasis mine.

[ecliptic]

I vote refund

[wrenchmonkey]

I vote for refund. I think, guys who want to wait for shipment would be better off taking refund and buying Avalon chips at a discount, better chances at ROI that way.

If there were Avalon chips available for a discount I'd be all for it.  I just haven't seen that option aside from one or two offers from group buyers.  That's why I said earlier that it would be nice to see what compensation options Yifu mentioned might be available.

Yifu mentioned only one option. That was a refund now, with the possibility of re-purchasing at a discount later. All other options were suggested by others, and rejected by Yifu.

While I have no problems issue refunds, compensating for delay and such, I got no patience for people complaining when their orders are not late. Not too surprisingly, the people complaining the loudest are people whose order are not late yet(so more people refund and they can get their chips earlier maybe?), and people who have no orders(standard trolls of bitcointalk).

Most people who have chip orders are much more understanding to the situation, whom are either taking refunds, or working out some sort of compensation model.  

Emphasis mine.

Interesting. Perhaps he's softening up then. He had originally stated that he had no interest in doing that. Hard to keep track of what that nutjob is up to. He says one thing, then disappears, ignores 90% of all questions, takes 1-2 pot shots at people, and then disappears again. Seems that refunds are actually starting to come through for those requesting them, so that's a plus. Too bad he insists on being so erratic and out of touch... Much like the "organizer" of this group buy...

[Vycid]

I vote for refund. I think, guys who want to wait for shipment would be better off taking refund and buying Avalon chips at a discount, better chances at ROI that way.

If there were Avalon chips available for a discount I'd be all for it.  I just haven't seen that option aside from one or two offers from group buyers.  That's why I said earlier that it would be nice to see what compensation options Yifu mentioned might be available.

Yifu mentioned only one option. That was a refund now, with the possibility of re-purchasing at a discount later. All other options were suggested by others, and rejected by Yifu.

While I have no problems issue refunds, compensating for delay and such, I got no patience for people complaining when their orders are not late. Not too surprisingly, the people complaining the loudest are people whose order are not late yet(so more people refund and they can get their chips earlier maybe?), and people who have no orders(standard trolls of bitcointalk).

Most people who have chip orders are much more understanding to the situation, whom are either taking refunds, or working out some sort of compensation model.  

Emphasis mine.

Interesting. Perhaps he's softening up then. He had originally stated that he had no interest in doing that. Hard to keep track of what that nutjob is up to. He says one thing, then disappears, ignores 90% of all questions, takes 1-2 pot shots at people, and then disappears again. Seems that refunds are actually starting to come through for those requesting them, so that's a plus. Too bad he insists on being so erratic and out of touch...

He's avoiding us 'cuz we're messing with his chi.   

I do feel bad for the kid. What happened was probably beyond his control, and now there's a forum of thousands of people spewing hate and vitriol toward him. Can't be a nice feeling.

[wrenchmonkey]

I vote for refund. I think, guys who want to wait for shipment would be better off taking refund and buying Avalon chips at a discount, better chances at ROI that way.

If there were Avalon chips available for a discount I'd be all for it.  I just haven't seen that option aside from one or two offers from group buyers.  That's why I said earlier that it would be nice to see what compensation options Yifu mentioned might be available.

Yifu mentioned only one option. That was a refund now, with the possibility of re-purchasing at a discount later. All other options were suggested by others, and rejected by Yifu.

While I have no problems issue refunds, compensating for delay and such, I got no patience for people complaining when their orders are not late. Not too surprisingly, the people complaining the loudest are people whose order are not late yet(so more people refund and they can get their chips earlier maybe?), and people who have no orders(standard trolls of bitcointalk).

Most people who have chip orders are much more understanding to the situation, whom are either taking refunds, or working out some sort of compensation model.  

Emphasis mine.

Interesting. Perhaps he's softening up then. He had originally stated that he had no interest in doing that. Hard to keep track of what that nutjob is up to. He says one thing, then disappears, ignores 90% of all questions, takes 1-2 pot shots at people, and then disappears again. Seems that refunds are actually starting to come through for those requesting them, so that's a plus. Too bad he insists on being so erratic and out of touch...

He's avoiding us 'cuz we're messing with his chi.

I do feel bad for the kid. What happened was probably beyond his control, and now there's a forum of thousands of people spewing hate and vitriol toward him. Can't be a nice feeling.

He brought it on himself. He was oh-so-smug about BFL's debacle and missed deadlines. He writes up this big "No BS" contract, promises something he probably KNEW he wasn't going to be able to deliver, fails to deliver, and rather than giving updates, he disappears on us for WEEKS.

Then one day shows up out of the blue, promising "Updates", which really amounted to nothing more than excuses and a BS story about disappearing due to opsec reasons. He expected to be treated as some messiah, and genuinely seems clueless as to why he wasn't hailed as a savior simply for turning back up with some weak excuses and no solutions to how bad he's fucked so many people.

He proceeds to give no real updates on progress of chip orders, people keep insisting on updates, he then loses his shit and tells us we're all just "Greedy" for wanting him to deliver on his promises. Threatens to disappear again, mumbling something about his "chi". A week later, still refuses to get his shit together and just come up with actual solutions already.

He's been given benefit of the doubt, after benefit of the doubt, after benefit of the doubt, and he continues to piss in our faces.

I agree that he's probably in over his head, but this was all COMPLETELY avoidable. He had COUNTLESS opportunities to mend fences, and he keeps passing them by. Even now, if, as many people have said, he were willing to give partial refunds or more chips to compensate lost ROI based on delayed delivery, he would be able to mend fences with a LOT of people, but he chooses to cower in the corner like a little bitch, rather than man up, present a plan, and move on.

He's done (and continues to do) it to himself. No sympathy. It's not hard to come up with a solution. There's an entire community offering ideas to him. He just needs to sack up and pick one, and move forward. Doesn't even require much brainpower or time on his part; it's been handed to him on a silver platter.

At this point, I'm almost prepared to vote against taking a refund (settlement), and suggest dragging his cowardly ass into court instead. Ragin might deserve to find himself on the defendants list too, at this point, based on his erratic and cowardly actions prior to this point, but the delivery aspect was one that was actually out of his control, so he's actually probably getting off pretty easy...

[ragmondo]

refund for my 49.x chips please.

FFS. My BFL jala is alledgedly "in the post" and if I do get it before the next difficulty change, I'll be making a whopping 0.03 BTC per day. These chips were supposed to help x4 that so at least it was worth keeping the rigs going. And the real kicker. I paid for that fucking jala with 9 btc when they were at 20 USD / each. I know I'm only venting but if the difficulty should never rise, then it would take just 300 days of free electric to get break even. Screw that fucking calculator at http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ ... but I guess I'm as guilty as anybody else thinking "w00t free money".

FML. I guess everybody want ga ga over the fact that Jeff managed to get the first known working Avalon ASIC when (how many??) other competitors just didn't deliver so it was only predictable this was going to be a train wreck meets car crash when there are so many parties involved that just aren't experienced in dealing with this kind of volume.

Anyway. Rant over.

Can anyone tell me what happened to the ASICs that were created that someone took pics of and plastered that on the net ??

[Noitev]

updated sheet.

[Noitev]

John. k has pmed me stating that he is OK to refund if the vote goes through. I'm arbitrarily setting a date of september 6th 00:00 GMT for votes, at which point, majority of votes wins.



anyone have anything against this?

[wrenchmonkey]

We need somebody who has access to the list of all the buyers' email addresses to send out a notification letting those people know. Otherwise, it needs to be a tally of aye votes vs. the nays. Not a matter of coming up with a full 5001 chips worth of Ayes for the refund. Ragin isn't going to man up and do that, because he stands to lose money if we take the refund. Same reason Steamboat has been cowering in the corner all week on HIS group buys (although Ragin' was already being a bitch well before all this).

[Vycid]

John. k has pmed me stating that he is OK to refund if the vote goes through. I'm arbitrarily setting a date of september 6th 00:00 GMT for votes, at which point, majority of votes wins.



anyone have anything against this?

I'm willing to stand behind the results pending a formal OK from John.

[AMuppInTime]

70 chips - aye to refund.

[Bicknellski]

I am not a member of the group buy all chips sold to Bassclef. Please update the chip list.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2894996#msg2894996

[Kushedout]

300 Chips. Requesting Refund.

[redphlegm]

48 chips abstaining from vote (34 from initial group buy & 14 purchased from ryepdx later).

[aceat64]

260 chips, I'll take the refund.

If it doesn't go through I guess I'll make a bunch of K1s and try to sell them or give them as gifts.

Edit to add: I'm also accepting offers to purchase my chips (and the refund rights should it happen).

[Noitev]

Honestly, anybody who chooses option A is a fool, and Yifu's bitch.

Although I appreciate the wonderful sentiment, I'd prefer that we act like adults here.

I personally don't believe the recent hashrate spike is sustainable. I think it will level off and then progress linearly. A few months ago many predicted difficulty would be over 100 million in July based on exponential extrapolation alone. Soon after it leveled off. People speculate a lot here, and are usually wrong. I'm probably wrong too, but to have an x-petahash difficulty in December would require way too much capital and gives mining companies too much credit. Fact is we live in a cyclical, imperfect world and its not as easy as putting numbers into an equation. I recall reading somewhere that predicting difficulty with any accuracy is a fool's errand; I tend to agree.

Given the recent price bump and good press, it's possible the window may not have shut on profitability completely, but it's closing quickly. We need these chips very soon, or I'll be on the refund bandwagon too. (I'm not paying assembly costs so I'm willing to give it more time.) As others have pointed out it will be easy enough to buy cheaper chips elsewhere, however to take that additional gamble I need proof that Yifu is processing refunds quickly AND that prodigits/ragingazn will be on the ball to promptly refund everyone in the group buy the proper amounts.

We're not quite there.... yet.

I'd much rather John k get the assets here than raginazn or anyone else for that matter. the order is in john's name so he'd get the bitcoins back and should be able to refund everyone sans the 1.5% for the escrow (which he deserves considering this clusterfuck.) Avalon's effectiveness in refunds is a moot point since they seem to have the same risk in shipping chips as they do with the refunds.

I just find it silly that we're given a probable out after everyone was worried about ragingazn disappearing. This stops him from interacting with this group buy entirely and people still want the chips that he may or may not deliver...

One more thing to Bassclef: how many chips do you have total? the original spreadsheet is incorrect it seems.

[spanishfry]

hello, I vote for refund.  I have 192 chips.  Thank you

[bassclef]

One more thing to Bassclef: how many chips do you have total? the original spreadsheet is incorrect it seems.

Sorry about that. I meant to post this before. Please update it with correct info using the links provided.

70 chips from Todamont
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2858646#msg2858646
40 chips from Enigma81
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2874356#msg2874356
540 from Bicknellski
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2894996#msg2894996
170 from Egon
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.msg2937894#msg2937894

And 95 from my original order for a total of 915 chips.

I have parts and boards ordered for many K16s, most of which I obtained at bulk prices and most non-refundable. I'm also not paying for assembly, which by my calculations is nearly 50% of the cost (maybe a bit less, I don't have the numbers in front of me now, but it's significant and part of the reason I chose to build them locally). So regarding ROI I'm more insulated than most.

If I knew there existed a certainty that I could pick up cheaper chips on the second hand market I'd vote yes for a refund, no problem. The problem is that I don't know if Yifu will offer them to the public or simply sell the excess inventory out the back door. And he's offering refunds for all orders before June 1st, so anyone in their right mind won't sell an early order here for half price if they can get a full refund. If the later orders then end up arriving earlier, the question is which orders (not all were forum group buys) and who will sell them where, and do I want to devote time to scouring forum/sites everyday to catch them if/when the opportunity does arise to buy over 900 chips. Uncertainty.

That leaves the group buy and assembly coordinators, who will use early chip batches to fill existing orders. However, only if a large percentage of their customers choose to refund will they have excess chips to sell, and if so, when? More uncertainty.

For these reasons I'll be voting no on the refund option.  I do have another large chip order with Steamboat batch one, so not all is lost if the majority here vote to refund (which seems imminent). No hard feelings, I would have done the same if I'd paid for assembly, especially with the BTC price increase.

(As a side note, a hard-to-find part for the K16, IR3895 buck regulator, just quickly and unexpectedly went in then out of stock at Arrow to the tune of multiple reels. So people are still building these, just not anyone here.)

[conv3rsion]

26 chips, voting FOR refund