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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26381528 times)
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lay785
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July 02, 2014, 04:04:03 AM

So today we had two major retailers announce that they're taking bitcoin and we're now lower value than we were 24 hours ago. This market is brutal.
As many people have pointed out already, those major retailers announced that they are taking dollars -- that will come from the sale of bitcoins, mostly by bitcoin enthusiasts.  So those news may give bitcoin more visibility, but it is questionable whether they will expand the number of bitcoin owners, and they imply more coins moving from hoards into the market.

And, anyway, those news are irrelevant to the Chinese traders -- who seem to be leading the current drop.


Merchant adoption is the next step towards global acceptance after the initial investment / speculation phase. It's the next logical step and it's a good sign.

They are not taking dollars, they are taking Bitcoins. And not all of the merchants are selling 100% of the Bitcoins back to dollars by the way.

When people start to realize how easy crazy is to buy things in locally and the internet without the need of giving credit card or bank information to anyone acceptance is going to increase. It's the next natural / logical step, credit cards are a thing of the past and obsolete.



Interesting points. However I still cannot understand why someone would pay with bitcoins if rewards credit cards offer bonus cashback + services and features.
eg. many companies add an extra year warranty + some have purchase protection if item gets stolen/breaks within 90 days + protection from sellers who dont send quality goods and refuse to make good on the purchase and many more features.

Some of these benefits coupled with extra cash back (eg. I have a card that gives 2% cashback on all purchases) wont exactly make people flock to bitcoin unless they have something to hide or are paranoid and want to be "anonymous" (as if the nsa cant track you anyway...).

P.S. Of course there is a use for someone who cant get their hands on a credit card with features like those mentioned above (most people probably can though).



Do you truly believe all these bonus cashback, services, features, extra year warranty, purchase protection, and ability to charge-back are FREE? YOU are the one paying for all these crap, and even you don't want these you have no choice


I sort of agree with that. Point being if merchants credit card costs are 3.5%, perhaps provide a 2% discount for payments in BTC
That is what I have been saying for ages. If the consumers are losing cashback + credit card benefits why should the prices stay the same for bitcoin users.... wtf... (also companies wont have to ever deal with fake charge backs etc.)

These companies are being very greedy by not passing the savings on to consumers...

Also it is worth noting that sometimes companies have special deals eg Discovercard sometimes has  "10% off at lenovo.com". Bitcoin users will definitely be further disadvantaged in such cases...
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The Bitcoin software, network, and concept is called "Bitcoin" with a capitalized "B". Bitcoin currency units are called "bitcoins" with a lowercase "b" -- this is often abbreviated BTC.
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July 02, 2014, 04:24:57 AM

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Public Note: Dread Pirate Roberts is a hero. The feds are the criminals.

Lulz, I love how people are using the silk road address as one big trollbox.

https://blockchain.info/address/1a8LDh3qtCdMFAgRXzMrdvB8w1EG4h1Xi

I feel bad for that poor lady from Somalia though, I'd have thrown her a few bits if she had only included a donation address, so sad. Cry
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July 02, 2014, 04:29:21 AM

That is what I have been saying for ages. If the consumers are losing cashback + credit card benefits why should the prices stay the same for bitcoin users.... wtf... (also companies wont have to ever deal with fake charge backs etc.)

These companies are being very greedy by not passing the savings on to consumers...

Also it is worth noting that sometimes companies have special deals eg Discovercard sometimes has  "10% off at lenovo.com". Bitcoin users will definitely be further disadvantaged in such cases...

/shameless plug

If you're in the market for a controller, we offer 5% off your total purchase. Small businesses get it!
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July 02, 2014, 04:41:52 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.
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July 02, 2014, 05:01:19 AM


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July 02, 2014, 05:07:36 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

You could argue that everything costs 3% more because credit cards, but it's not hard to earn more than that with rewards, so it's kind of a YMMV situation.

I do hate the fact that all my rewards-based trips are basically paid for by other consumers with massive amounts of credit card debt, though.
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July 02, 2014, 05:31:58 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.
Maybe there is a markup to make up for transaction fees. The point that Im making is that the merchants charge the same price whether you pay by cc or cash or bitcoin. At least I get a few % cashback + other benefits and it basically negates any markup. You pay the same price with bitcoin and get no benefits.

Therefore unless bitcoin payments get some sort of discount youd have to be pretty stupid or paranoid about the nsa snooping on you to pay via bitcoins...
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July 02, 2014, 05:32:54 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

You could argue that everything costs 3% more because credit cards, but it's not hard to earn more than that with rewards, so it's kind of a YMMV situation.

I do hate the fact that all my rewards-based trips are basically paid for by other consumers with massive amounts of credit card debt, though.

Huh show me a free credit card the gives 3% cashback which is not a set time or category promo.
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July 02, 2014, 05:35:30 AM

Do you truly believe all these bonus cashback, services, features, extra year warranty, purchase protection, and ability to charge-back are FREE? YOU are the one paying for all these crap, and even you don't want these you have no choice
What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

What do you mean if I "dont want these" - why in the world would any sane person not want "cashback" and an "extra year warranty"........ wtf are you smoking.

Have you ever asked for a "cash price" before making a purchase? I do it all the time and when the merchant provides a cash discount it easily beats any cash back or other features I might receive from using a credit card.

So... your "totally free" credit card is costing you in the form of more expensive products across the board.

Although I don't do much shopping with Bitcoin, apparently there is a company (eGifter) offering 3% cash back when purchasing their gift cards with Bitcoin instead of traditional methods. I expect to see more companies take this approach as Bitcoin gains traction.
Oh really so walmart gives discounts for cash payments vs credit cards? what about amazon? what about newegg?
If you buy amazon gift cards from certain stores you can get 10% cashback. How can cash compete with that?

I get a minimum of 2% cashback on all my purchases, some stores get 5-10% off. Unless the store offers such large percentages off youre better off using a cc and getting cashback + benefits.
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July 02, 2014, 05:37:24 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.
Maybe there is a markup to make up for transaction fees. The point that Im making is that the merchants charge the same price whether you pay by cc or cash or bitcoin. At least I get a few % cashback + other benefits and it basically negates any markup. You pay the same price with bitcoin and get no benefits.

Therefore unless bitcoin payments get some sort of discount youd have to be pretty stupid or paranoid about the nsa snooping on you to pay via bitcoins...

SOME merchants charge you the same, but not all. Here I always buy computer parts with cash because I have to pay at least 2% extra with CC, and that could not cover those CC "benefits". For those merchants who charge you the same, the price is usually less competitive.
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July 02, 2014, 05:37:49 AM

Therefore unless bitcoin payments get some sort of discount youd have to be pretty stupid or paranoid about the nsa snooping on you to pay via bitcoins...

There's nothing stopping someone from creating a Bitcoin credit card.  Compare Bitcoin with cash.  Compare USD credit cards with Bitcoin credit cards.  Right now the latter do not exist.  But they will some day.

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July 02, 2014, 05:39:39 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

You could argue that everything costs 3% more because credit cards, but it's not hard to earn more than that with rewards, so it's kind of a YMMV situation.

I do hate the fact that all my rewards-based trips are basically paid for by other consumers with massive amounts of credit card debt, though.

Huh show me a free credit card the gives 3% cashback which is not a set time or category promo.

Highest ive seen is 2.2% cashback. Certain rewards points are thought to be worth 5-15cents each eg. starwood amex points if you intend to stay at hotels and compare the price to what the hotel normally costs. Theres an annual fee on that card but some people get it waived. Was just giving an example of how depending on how you use your points you can get much more than 3%.

I know someone who has an amex gold and sells amex rewards points for like 5cents or so. although that has an annual fee as well. if you spend enough you negate the annual fee and can still get like 3.5-4%.
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July 02, 2014, 05:47:57 AM

My opinion, bring on the negativity, is they should have donated ALL the SilkRoad
coins to a fund to be spread out proportionally to pay back all the MTGOX
victims.
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July 02, 2014, 05:56:52 AM

Each rentier skimming from this chain drains off another fraction of the debt, which the public is obligated in theory to pay off one day.  The result is a class system in which 0.1% of the population gains the bulk of the benefit of economic productivity gains and public spending, A shrinking middle class carries a rapidly increasing tax burden and debt load, and a rapidly growing underclass is kept placid with government benefits. 

Things go on until they can't.  Exponentially increasing debt in the presence of declining economic growth, ultimately, economic retraction, will end catastrophically, if it is not managed.
No question about the facts, but disagree about the predictions.  Ther may be crises, but they will managed, so as no to kill the cow while it can still give some milk.  They may starve it gradually out of greed, and thus end up hurting themselves; but at worst the world wil become a huge Bangladesh rather than a huge Somalia.

The only way to manage this landing is calculated, systematic debt destruction.

Brazil has a huge public debt, that simply cannot be paid off.  If it wasn't past my bedtime I would look for figures, but it passed a trillion dollars many years ago.  Currently some 50-60% of the government's revenue goes into paying interest of that debt; but that is only part of the interest due, so that the principal just keeps growing.  The last time the government actually borrowed money was perhaps in 1999, when the debt may have been 1/10 of today's, or less.  Since then we have been paying all that interest to the banks in exchange of nothing, merely for their kindness in letting us give them only 60% of our taxes, instead of perhaps 90% or 120%. 

Indeed, the just and smart thing to do would be to destroy that debt: tell the banks 'fuck you, we already paid our debt with inerest many times over, we owe you nothing, rather you owe us'.  That is what Argentina partly tried to do onec and is trying to do again, and you may have known the result.

Unfortunately the banks effectively own the stealth bombers and nuclear missiles.  When Lula ran for President in 2000, he had to pledge that he would honor the debt and not try to do what Argentina did.  Lula and Dilma managed to convert some of the debt to less expensive loans, but that only slowed the rate of growth, not make it shrink.  Dilma lowered the prime rate from 18% to 9% per year, but the bankers swore to overthrow her, and she was orced to backtrack and raise the rate again. And so on.

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The money is debt.  It is made of debt.  It is a token of debt.  It is debt which can only be repaid by creating more debt.  The money itself is the very root of the problem.  Either the system implodes catastrophically, or it reforms itself.  In either case, debt-based money will cease to exist as it does today.
Yeah, but why would it be different with crypto?  If crypto gets widespread use in the economy, banks will create "virtual bitcoins" just like they now create "virtual dollars".  Indeed I see already many budding factories of "virtual bitcoins" sprouting all over the place. MtGOX was an egregious example.

Quote
But you are ignoring the bulk of the wealth held by society.  Most of the value in society is in the interconnections between people, the transactions, transfers, obligations and acquitals which they make.  Human capital is not just a matter of skills, but of relationships.   Many of those relationships, often the most economically important ones, are mediated by money.  Ignoring money would cause you to ignore much of the value in society.
Again, I admit that I was oversimplifying.  But one could view the destruction of that "socail network value" as as consequence of the bad redistribution of wealth caused by the collapse of money system, rather than of the collapse itself.

Quote
If the government destroyed all currency and all balances on account, I think half the people in the U.S. would be dead in a month.
Supply chains would collapse, and under modern just-in-time inventory management practices, mass starvation, epidemics, and gang warfare would be pervasive.

In the late 1980s, the Brazilian government tried to stop runaway inflation by freezing the funds in all bank accounts above some ridiculous threshold.  (Those frozen funds were relased only a year or two after.) The result, not surprisingly, was a deep economic crisis, perhaps the worst that the country ever had.  The GNP dropped, comerce shrunk, people lost jobs, companies large and small closed (except the banks, of course).  Fortunatey I wasn't in the country at that time, but I have friends who had just sold their home in order to buy another, and had their money trappped in the bank.  Poverty increased, public services worsened, and crime increased -- but the country did not collapse, there was no mass starvation or pervasive gang warfare, not epidemics (at least not much worse than usual).  People and companies found workarounds to the bank freeze, sold on credit or paid with cash, and the government was forced to compromises; so most of those social and economic interconnections did not get to be broken.

Based on that and other examples, I believe that to get a complete collapse of the society one needs something much more powerful than merely messing with people's bank accounts.  Like an invasion by a foreign power, external financing of domestic terrorism and sabotage,  a civil war, or collapse of real economy iitself -- as perhaps happened in the Mayan civiization, the Roman Empire, or the USSR.

I don't see any of those things happening in the US any time soon.  I was in new York last year, for a couple of weeks, and now I wonder whether the doomsday prophets are perhaps posting from another planet....

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July 02, 2014, 06:05:00 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

You could argue that everything costs 3% more because credit cards, but it's not hard to earn more than that with rewards, so it's kind of a YMMV situation.

I do hate the fact that all my rewards-based trips are basically paid for by other consumers with massive amounts of credit card debt, though.

Huh show me a free credit card the gives 3% cashback which is not a set time or category promo.

Highest ive seen is 2.2% cashback. Certain rewards points are thought to be worth 5-15cents each eg. starwood amex points if you intend to stay at hotels and compare the price to what the hotel normally costs. Theres an annual fee on that card but some people get it waived. Was just giving an example of how depending on how you use your points you can get much more than 3%.

I know someone who has an amex gold and sells amex rewards points for like 5cents or so. although that has an annual fee as well. if you spend enough you negate the annual fee and can still get like 3.5-4%.

Yeah this, Amex Everyday with 4.5 points per dollar on groceries, transfer to British Airways (usually 1:1 transfer but bonus 20% last month), redeem at 3.7 cents per point, 16.65% cash-back equivalent (assuming you travel).  Just one example, you do need to have many credit cards to maximize earnings everywhere.

I'd gladly take a Coinbase Debit Card though!
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July 02, 2014, 06:05:52 AM

There will be a day.. when the price has stagnated for too long, and a hacker who stole the mtgox coins (or some other hacker/scammer/drug dealer from the past, for that matter), feels that this is as good as it gets, and then he starts to dump his coins. And this in turn will invite all the other past criminals to dump their coins because they don't want to lose their promised wealth.

Most of the bitcoin cultists don't understand the psychology of criminals. They usually don't think long-term and they go after quick fixes. I highly doubt it that many of them are as fanatical about bitcoin as the people here are. The only reason why they haven't dumped their coins yet, is that there is hope that the price will rise more. This has made bitcoin into an asset, that's value has to be constantly rising or else it will face doom.
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July 02, 2014, 06:19:02 AM

What the heck are you talking about, ive been getting all these benefits "for free". I have never paid a dime to any credit card company. No annual fees, no charges, nothing... I have all the above "totally free". If you have never heard about these things you should do some research.

You absolutely have, you just aren't aware of it.  Merchants are charged fees by the CC processors and those are passed onto you, the customer.  Don't think you're not paying for that shit one way or another just because you don't see the charge first hand.

You could argue that everything costs 3% more because credit cards, but it's not hard to earn more than that with rewards, so it's kind of a YMMV situation.

I do hate the fact that all my rewards-based trips are basically paid for by other consumers with massive amounts of credit card debt, though.

Huh show me a free credit card the gives 3% cashback which is not a set time or category promo.

Highest ive seen is 2.2% cashback. Certain rewards points are thought to be worth 5-15cents each eg. starwood amex points if you intend to stay at hotels and compare the price to what the hotel normally costs. Theres an annual fee on that card but some people get it waived. Was just giving an example of how depending on how you use your points you can get much more than 3%.

I know someone who has an amex gold and sells amex rewards points for like 5cents or so. although that has an annual fee as well. if you spend enough you negate the annual fee and can still get like 3.5-4%.


IF you spend enough and IF you want to stay in that specific hotel IF that hotel is available on that date IF your points don't expire ...  bottom line credit companies are for profit and are making money (lots of it) off transactions. There can be no argument that cutting them out is beneficial, to both merchants and their customers, a more valid argument should be how those savings should be split between two
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July 02, 2014, 06:23:04 AM

There will be a day.. when the price has stagnated for too long, and a hacker who stole the mtgox coins (or some other hacker/scammer/drug dealer from the past, for that matter), feels that this is as good as it gets, and then he starts to dump his coins. And this in turn will invite all the other past criminals to dump their coins because they don't want to lose their promised wealth.

Most of the bitcoin cultists don't understand the psychology of criminals. They usually don't think long-term and they go after quick fixes. I highly doubt it that many of them are as fanatical about bitcoin as the people here are. The only reason why they haven't dumped their coins yet, is that there is hope that the price will rise more. This has made bitcoin into an asset, that's value has to be constantly rising or else it will face doom.
Your assuming the coins got hacked to begin with
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July 02, 2014, 06:26:07 AM

My opinion, bring on the negativity, is they should have donated ALL the SilkRoad
coins to a fund to be spread out proportionally to pay back all the MTGOX
victims.

Or to the FBI-victims who got their money stolen.
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