Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[octaft]

"Name and shame"?  Why are so many Bitcoiners eager to throw away the fruits of civilized society and take us back to the dark ages?

Very clever - you structured your post in a way that implies the people who want to out scammers to limit the damage they can do are "throwing away the fruits of civilized society" without actually lying.

Please ignore the troll argument and focus on the legitimate one: if you use your credit card, you can name, shame, and still have your money at the end of it.

[1713571504]

1713571504

[1713571504]

1713571504

[1713571504]

1713571504

[NotLambchop]

"Name and shame"?  Why are so many Bitcoiners eager to throw away the fruits of civilized society and take us back to the dark ages?

Very clever - you structured your post in a way that implies the people who want to out scammers to limit the damage they can do are "throwing away the fruits of civilized society" without actually lying.

Not at all.  Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."  These do not take "naming and shaming" off the table, while significantly reducing scamming.  And that's what I'm suggesting many Bitcoiners wish to throw away.

@octaft:  The mock-erudite, bombastic style is meant to provoke a response, but != trolling.

[ssmc2]

[heartastack]

Ah ahah

[justusranvier]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

[NotLambchop]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits^{[citation needed].
...}

FTFY
*If you are suggesting some sort of free-form, ungoverned anarcho-capitalist society, there are no historical examples that survived for a meaningful length of time.

[touhonoob]

Payza Introduced Bitcoin Deposits & Withdrawal
https://blog.payza.com/payza-updates/announcements/bitcoin-deposits-payza/
https://blog.payza.com/payza-updates/why-use-payza-announcements/buy-bitcoin-with-payza/

[Asrael999]

"Name and shame"?  Why are so many Bitcoiners eager to throw away the fruits of civilized society and take us back to the dark ages?

Very clever - you structured your post in a way that implies the people who want to out scammers to limit the damage they can do are "throwing away the fruits of civilized society" without actually lying.

Please ignore the troll argument and focus on the legitimate one: if you use your credit card, you can name, shame, and still have your money at the end of it.

as more and larger companies adopt bitcoin they will focus on repeat business - not one time scams. Most large companies offer refunds for returned goods or store credits without any complaint. As the number of reputable merchants accepting bitcoin increases the number of "problematic refunds" as a percentage of total transactions will decline. Certainly the economic losses from these types of transactions will be far lower than the economic gains from the reduction in fraud. The volume of transactions involving a disreputable seller is much smaller than the volume of transactions involving a disreputable buyer.
A company I am involved with recently deactivated their credit card processor, they have found this has increased their business via bitcoin and with a corresponding decrease in fraud and time wasted wondering whether that payment/order is real or not this translates into increased efficiency. They are currently debating whether they take credit cards in the future or not, but the time savings are so great from not having to deal with the credit card processor I think they should not bother.

[marcelus]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

That's why.... I'm leavin'... On a blockchain, don't know if I'll be back again.

[NotLambchop]

... The volume of transactions involving a disreputable seller is much smaller than the volume of transactions involving a disreputable buyer...

Because buyer protection laws.  Take those away, and you'll get Bitcoin economy--choc full 0' scam.

[marcelus]

Much like many gas stations in the US give a cash discount or small mom and pop stores give cash discounts, I believe this will happen for bitcoin as well.

Other advantages for consumers will be:
1. protection against inflation
2. No frozen accounts like Cyprus
3. Banking for the 6+ billion people in the world that don't have banking
4. Remittances -- Save 10%+ on sending money to 3rd world countries
5. Internet transactions (usually seller based) -- Too many people scam with other services like paypal, I would gladly take a 5% cut off my revenue to know that my transaction is irreversible and I cannot be scammed by a buyer
6. Secondary platforms such as a decentralized stock market. -- China will go ape shit over this. All they have right now is real estate and wealth management products (essentially a ponzi scheme). This will allow people in countries that attempt to stop capital flight to actually have oversees investments.

I'm sure there is more, but that is a decent start.

1-3) More applicable as a store of value argument than a consumer/merchant viability one. I guess the banking for third world country things is okay, if people in third world countries want to buy stuff from people accepting bitcoin.
4) I agree with this, and say so in my post. It's a good way to send money relatively cheaply and quickly.
5) I agree it benefits the seller, but you don't cater to the merchant, you cater to the consumer. The consumer is the one paying, and he has to pay in bitcoins. The consumer is the one with no recourse if he gets screwed over.
6) Again, not really addressing the consumer/merchant relationship.

once consumers have more of a reason to use it (as all of these projects develop).

bad points

All bad points, octaft.

Consumers get multiplied x5 or x10 his purchasing power by year, instead of get it diluted in the fiat scheme
Paypal and others will offer chargebacks
Consumers bypass the corrupt banking system
Consumers bypass the corrupt central state system
Consumers get, in fact, discount price or heavy discount price

It´s a win-win situation that everyone would want, except the actual overlords of the system that right now are probably trying to undermine crypto via manipulation, overregulation and paying trolls

1) What about the guys who bought at 1000? How is their purchasing power doing? I'm not taunting people who bought near the top, my point is simply that you can't say this is a benefit, because there is no guarantee that bitcoins value continues to rise indefinitely, and there is serious risk involved (whether perceived or reality I'll leave it up to you to decide, either will suffice for what I'm arguing) that the whole thing could plummet while you're keeping your purchasing power in bitcoins.
2) Paypal is very consumer friendly and merchant unfriendly. This is exactly what the consumer wants.
3-4) There is no guarantee enough consumers will care about any of that strongly enough to be willing to make changes. I'll concede that maybe in some countries this would be enough, but in order to get the 5-6 figure prices everyone talks about, you'd need more than just those countries.
5) The most I've seen for a discount is 5%. If there are any "heavy discounts" I may have missed, feel free to enlighten me.

I don't really see the issue on your first "flaw":
-When I need to RMA something I don't contact my creditcard company but the merchant.
-Merchant regulation ( example:The law in Belgium states things bought online can be returned for free up to 14 days after delivery no   questions asked)
- Merchants offering the best return policies and the best trust ratings would be another tool to compete with the competition.

It's nothing a free market can't resolve on itself.

And cc fees are calculated into your purchasing price....

If you get ripped off, you contact your credit card company and have them reverse charges. Much more of a pain to get back your money with bitcoins, especially if they were straight-up fly by night scammers.

Relying on trust ratings seems like it would be a huge catch-22 that would lock new businesses out of markets in favor of established ones. How does one get high trust ratings if few have purchased from them? How does one justify purchasing from those new businesses so they can get those high trust ratings? You might see prices from the trusted sellers rise in the face of this, as they know people will pay the premium for the reassurance.

once consumers have more of a reason to use it (as all of these projects develop).

I see this argument a lot, and my question is this: what, exactly, would give consumers more of a reason to use bitcoin for legal transactions over existing payment methods? What will these new projects do differently that will make it more attractive for the consumer?

The consumer won't even know they're using it. Gateways like Stripe, Apple Pay, Transferwise, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc will take care of that for them. The consumer will merely make payments like they always have - except at a fraction of the cost.

A fair point, but one that still relies on for-profit groups with self-serving interests.

once consumers have more of a reason to use it (as all of these projects develop).

I see this argument a lot, and my question is this: what, exactly, would give consumers more of a reason to use bitcoin for legal transactions over existing payment methods? What will these new projects do differently that will make it more attractive for the consumer?

My opinion is that bitcoin's huge flaw in regards to regular consumer usage is that two of its major benefits both work in favor of the merchant.

Can't reverse transactions: benefits the merchant, makes it harder for them to get ripped off, but easier for the consumer to be ripped off, or to force them to accept what could be an inferior product with no guarantee of a refund.

You don't get a refund because of your payment method - you get a refund because of consumer protection law.
Companies that think they can get away with not giving refunds because people have paid with bitcoin will find that what happened to Butterflylabs happens to them.
Consumer protection law is what matters here - not your payment method. Most times you want to get a refund/take something back you talk directly to the retailer and they refund you directly or give you store credit. You only go to the credit card that one time in a hundred when that doesn't work.

Another fair point, but even with the law, it would still be a lot harder to get your bitcoins back. The point is why would the vast majority of consumers be willing to go through all the trouble? Yes, okay, there's the threat of arrest for those who scammed you, but even if they do go to jail, there is no guarantee you're getting your money back, and if you do it could take years vs the one phone call you need to make to the CC company. The ripoffs getting in trouble is not as important to your average consumer as them getting their money back without having to wait years wondering if it's ever coming.

If it benefits the merchant, prospective entrepreneurs will build infrastructure so that the consumer will find it beneficial to use. Simples.

[superresistant]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits^{[citation needed].
...}

FTFY
*If you are suggesting some sort of free-form, ungoverned anarcho-capitalist society, there are no historical examples that survived for a meaningful length of time.

Haha bulshit.
Centralized-obese-governments are a very recent invention that is not gonna last.
99.99% of human History is without it.

Payza Introduced Bitcoin Deposits & Withdrawal
https://blog.payza.com/payza-updates/announcements/bitcoin-deposits-payza/
https://blog.payza.com/payza-updates/why-use-payza-announcements/buy-bitcoin-with-payza/

Damn wow.

[NotLambchop]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

That's why.... I'm leavin'... On a blockchain, don't know if I'll be back again.

Keep using the blockchain, earthling.



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.

[NotLambchop]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits^{[citation needed].
...}

FTFY
*If you are suggesting some sort of free-form, ungoverned anarcho-capitalist society, there are no historical examples that survived for a meaningful length of time.

Haha bulshit.
Centralized-obese-governments are a very recent invention that is not gonna last.
99.99% of human History is without it.

Yeah, if you start counting from the Big Bang. 

>>>/pol/

[marcelus]

The consumer won't even know they're using it. Gateways like Stripe, Apple Pay, Transferwise, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc will take care of that for them. The consumer will merely make payments like they always have - except at a fraction of the cost.

A fair point, but one that still relies on for-profit groups with self-serving interests.

Sorry missed that you had replied. Yes it does rely. It has to rely for a time. There's no way the finance sector is going to dive head-first into the deep-end of fully p2p finance. There will be a transition period where centralised institutions act as gateways to the decentralised network. Those tech savvy enough will be the only niche complete p2pers. However, once the infrastructure becomes developed enough, we won't even need gateways.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[marcelus]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits^{[citation needed].
...}

FTFY
*If you are suggesting some sort of free-form, ungoverned anarcho-capitalist society, there are no historical examples that survived for a meaningful length of time.

Haha bulshit.
Centralized-obese-governments are a very recent invention that is not gonna last.
99.99% of human History is without it.

Yeah, if you start counting from the Big Bang. 

>>>/pol/

There's nothing anarchic about distributed consensus systems. The blockchain is the most efficient regulatory body the world has ever seen.

[lyth0s]

What is Payza? And what demographic uses it?

[cbeast]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

That's why.... I'm leavin'... On a blockchain, don't know if I'll be back again.

Keep using the blockchain, earthling.



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.

[mmitech]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

Yea, except this will take us back to the wild west ages where everyone fucks everyone and where most of the opportunities are for the elites while the majority slave or barely survive in an unfair community, which leads people to rise against the CHAOS and enforce governments and laws and constitutions... you know the same circle all over again.

Libertarians usually talk about their ideas of a communities without considering history of failed experiences.... you cant give too much freedom when most of the opinions varies, you have to enforce some boundaries,  how would a libertarian free of government community even agree on priorities and necessities when the human nature is to fight and differ on stupid matters.... we see that kind conflicts all around the world.