Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[afbitcoins]

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[Nightowlace]

A word to the wise:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/irswatch/2013/06/25/reminder-fbar-filing-due-by-june-30/

FBAR reporting requirements are due for all folks in the US who have a foreign account that had a value over US$10K in 2012 with the IRS.  
Penalty for non-reporting can be as much as 50% of the value of the account per year (not profit) though are much lower for provably innocent mistakes.

To reiterate, it doesn't matter if you cashed out anything or took any profit or just held it all in BTC, it is the value of the account and it being in a foreign nation that triggers the report requirement.
Call your tax attorney to understand your situation, don't take my advice.

I wonder which exchange should be used to determine such value. Like the one where you can't take dollars out or the ones that aren't based in US?

The one that matters will be whichever the IRS wants to use to show that there should have been a filing.

Okay just woke up and spoke with my accountant and his first response- "Bitcoin hahahaha, you're still playin with that thing." "Technically speaking if BTC is considered a currency, which I'm not sure it is yet but ill look, if you didn't have the BTC in the account where you purchased the BTC ie the exchange and it was "gone" you could technically claim it as a loss. If you can move it to a secure private wallet as you say then there would be no way of finding it, and you could say you transferred the money in, bought BTC, traded some for a loss and spent it all on eBay (Bitmit) buying whatever"

So moral of the story buy on the exchange, transfer to private wallet (or buy casascius coins from me, link is in Signature line) if it can't be found it can't be taxed.

[ChartBuddy]

[molecular]

Oh, just thought of something else.


Regarding my statement above, I would need to file that form...unless


Unless I export the bitcoins (value of $5K) to a wallet after purchasing. Then price doubles to $10K. But, the bitcoins are in my wallet, no longer in the account. So the account value never exceeded $10K. The value of my wallet did though!    

oh, now I finally understand that weird "account" feature in the satoshi client. It's for dividing up money into multiple accounts for regulatory evasion purposes.

[ChartBuddy]

[NewLiberty]

Oh, just thought of something else.

Regarding my statement above, I would need to file that form...unless

Unless I export the bitcoins (value of $5K) to a wallet after purchasing. Then price doubles to $10K. But, the bitcoins are in my wallet, no longer in the account. So the account value never exceeded $10K. The value of my wallet did though!    

Yes.  That avoids the filing requirement. (If it never reached US$10K in value on foreign land).
There are other ways to avoid it, but that would suffice.
IRS rules are often weird that way.  They seem designed to encourage some arbitrary behaviors vs others.

[smoothie]

This market feels like a coiling spring.

The coiling is slow...the release will be epic. Yes we could go more down...but fundamentals say we are going higher in the big picture.

[NewLiberty]

Oh, just thought of something else.

Regarding my statement above, I would need to file that form...unless

Unless I export the bitcoins (value of $5K) to a wallet after purchasing. Then price doubles to $10K. But, the bitcoins are in my wallet, no longer in the account. So the account value never exceeded $10K. The value of my wallet did though!    

oh, now I finally understand that weird "account" feature in the satoshi client. It's for dividing up money into multiple accounts for regulatory evasion purposes.

The word you are looking for is "avoid" not "evade".  The first is legal, the second can get you a free room with bars, but nothing good to drink.

That feature wouldn't do either though, the requirement is triggered by the sum of foreign held accounts going over US$10 in the previous tax years, so it doesn't matter how many accounts you control, if they add up to 10K, you are on the hook.

Again, don't take any advice from me, I'm just mentioning the dragon sitting over there looking hungry.  How you handle it is entirely your business.

[ChartBuddy]

[barbs]

Oh, just thought of something else.

Regarding my statement above, I would need to file that form...unless

Unless I export the bitcoins (value of $5K) to a wallet after purchasing. Then price doubles to $10K. But, the bitcoins are in my wallet, no longer in the account. So the account value never exceeded $10K. The value of my wallet did though!    

Yes.  That avoids the filing requirement. (If it never reached US$10K in value on foreign land).
There are other ways to avoid it, but that would suffice.
IRS rules are often weird that way.  They seem designed to encourage some arbitrary behaviors vs others.

Do you guys realize that if one of your foreign accounts ever reaches over 10k, you need to report all your foreign accounts irrespective of their balance?

I have foreign account 1: 11,000$, f account 2: 2,000$ f account 3: 500$ f account 4: 0$
I need to report account numbers of all 4 accounts

I have foreign account 1: 100$, F account 2: 200$, f Account 3: 5,000$
don't need to report any account numbers on the 3 accounts

[NewLiberty]

Oh, just thought of something else.

Regarding my statement above, I would need to file that form...unless

Unless I export the bitcoins (value of $5K) to a wallet after purchasing. Then price doubles to $10K. But, the bitcoins are in my wallet, no longer in the account. So the account value never exceeded $10K. The value of my wallet did though!    

Yes.  That avoids the filing requirement. (If it never reached US$10K in value on foreign land).
There are other ways to avoid it, but that would suffice.
IRS rules are often weird that way.  They seem designed to encourage some arbitrary behaviors vs others.

Do you guys realize that if one of your foreign accounts ever reaches over 10k, you need to report all your foreign accounts irrespective of their balance?

I have foreign account 1: 11,000$, f account 2: 2,000$ f account 3: 500$ f account 4: 0$
I need to report account numbers of all 4 accounts

I have foreign account 1: 100$, F account 2: 200$, f Account 3: 5,000$
don't need to report any account numbers on the 3 accounts

True.  Well put.

But also if Foreign acct1 =6000 and foreign account 2=6000, the sum is over 10K and its triggered.

[samson]

Do you guys realize that if one of your foreign accounts ever reaches over 10k, you need to report all your foreign accounts irrespective of their balance?

I have foreign account 1: 11,000$, f account 2: 2,000$ f account 3: 500$ f account 4: 0$
I need to report account numbers of all 4 accounts

I have foreign account 1: 100$, F account 2: 200$, f Account 3: 5,000$
don't need to report any account numbers on the 3 accounts

I'm glad I don't live in the land of the free and therefore don't have to do this nonsense.

[NewLiberty]

This FBAR report is mostly going to be useful for folks that have never had a lot of money, and suddenly have a whole bunch and can't show where it came from.  The assumption is going to be something criminal if you get audited.  This is a way to put it in the clear and spend it without worrying that you are going to get hit with anything unexpected later. (If you are US).  Its how they got Heidi Fleiss, taxes and money laundering, not so much the prostitution.

[Its About Sharing]

This market feels like a coiling spring.

The coiling is slow...the release will be epic. Yes we could go more down...but fundamentals say we are going higher in the big picture.

Key word being "feels". I am really curious which TA you are using. I have followed a few pretty good TA guys and I have yet to see anyone, NOT ONE, bullish in the current state.
Yes, they all say we can go up from here, I don't disagree with that. But the overall impression is that we are in a correction.
And the coiled spring, well, the sells have been larger than the buys and the sells have been more frequent than the buys, hence our recent movement. I don't see a coiled spring.
We might explode up if buyers come in (though those large sellers would probably sell into any movement.)

I'm even more curious of your fundamentals.
I'm pro Bitcoin (and long term VERY BULLISH) but right now there are no real fundamentals. If you want to compare us to a mid size billion dollar company and use a variance of PE, we would be very very overvalued.
Now, I agree we have intrinsic value (if accepted) - like E Gold. But we are all betting this takes place and hasn't yet taken place. I agree we can hit a very very high cost per BTC, like $10,000 per,
but right now we are in the infant stage and until real fundaments OR real adoption (e.g. - as a store of value - E Gold) or real use (e.g. - Amazon, or more internet sales like pay pal of years ago)
comes into play, we are in between it seems.

[barbs]

I'm watching walls and activity using http://trading.i286.org one of you posted this and i love this tool, I'm preffering it to Bitcoinity as it doesn't amalgamate orders and it makes great use of a retina display on my mac.

big wall at 104.49 and 104.5, for some reason the waller had 200@104.5 but has since split it up to 104.49 and 104.5 lol.

Not sure what is up with that but walls scare me. always!

[SGExodus]

I see an artificial raise to $105 this morning, plus a scary depth for Gox standards:

BTC43.25k to $120, the same amount to $85.
BTC17k to $110, the same amount to $96

Seems like Some groups (silkroad?) just want bitcoin price to fluctuate within a very tight range.  

[barbs]

This FBAR report is mostly going to be useful for folks that have never had a lot of money, and suddenly have a whole bunch and can't show where it came from.  The assumption is going to be something criminal if you get audited.  This is a way to put it in the clear and spend it without worrying that you are going to get hit with anything unexpected later. (If you are US).  Its how they got Heidi Fleiss, taxes and money laundering, not so much the prostitution.

Your point about if your amalgamated balances > 10,000$ is spot on, i should have included that also but you rebuffed my point.  Basically, if you have x number of foreign accounts, and you add their balances all up to a figure, and that figure is above 10,000$ you need to report every single damned account even if some of them are below 10,000$. Or face a 150,000$ fine if uncle sam finds out

Now to rebuff your point, that is part of it but I think the biggest part is tax dodgers not necessarily criminal just non-reporting of income.

[Rampion]

I'm watching walls and activity using http://trading.i286.org one of you posted this and i love this tool, I'm preffering it to Bitcoinity as it doesn't amalgamate orders and it makes great use of a retina display on my mac.

big wall at 104.49 and 104.5, for some reason the waller had 200@104.5 but has since split it up to 104.49 and 104.5 lol.

Not sure what is up with that but walls scare me. always!

big wall? Now 200BTC is a big wall?

Jeez, what about Wallzilla's 20,000BTC walls, then?

[barbs]

I'm watching what is going on right now and it seems someone is buying up every coin that comes ahead of the 104.49 / 104.5 wall within seconds.

[N12]

I'm watching walls and activity using http://trading.i286.org one of you posted this and i love this tool, I'm preffering it to Bitcoinity as it doesn't amalgamate orders and it makes great use of a retina display on my mac.

big wall at 104.49 and 104.5, for some reason the waller had 200@104.5 but has since split it up to 104.49 and 104.5 lol.

Not sure what is up with that but walls scare me. always!

big wall? Now 200BTC is a big wall?

Jeez, what about Wallzilla's 20,000BTC walls, then?

Most people only care to watch $1 spreads and 1min charts.