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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 62

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26372110 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
JayJuanGee
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March 21, 2015, 10:07:05 PM

Sideways... to the moon!!





Yeah..... These BTC prices been floating in the mid-$200s for several months... ... should be ready for some movement, one way or another?
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March 21, 2015, 10:10:50 PM



It's a real phone in 2015 ... you can buy it now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAgHto8V5Fg

 Cheesy (battery box is hell BIG, you can have a month of phone possibility without charge).
coins101
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March 21, 2015, 10:30:49 PM

100,000,000 MH/s required to generate 1 BTC / day

BTC is way under priced
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March 21, 2015, 10:46:31 PM

okcoin with higher 24h volume than bitfinex  Huh
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March 21, 2015, 10:59:35 PM

Coin
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March 21, 2015, 11:09:01 PM

okcoin with higher 24h volume than bitfinex  Huh

They don't have trading fees on OKcoin do they? I guess a lot of the trades there are easily faked, so I wouldn't trust whatever trading volume they claim to have.
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March 21, 2015, 11:10:25 PM



I'm not an expert but does anyone else observes a pennant? I calculate about 2 more hours till it closes. Up or down, I really can't tell. Smiley
JorgeStolfi
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March 21, 2015, 11:14:46 PM

Your argument as to the cost of mining destroying wealth is not new [ ... ] however there is no "destruction" of economic value as the payments are still in circulation just not in the BTC economic network. Until those that sell us the electricity begin to use and hold BTC.

As I have explained several times before: When you are computing your personal wealth, or the wealth of a company, or even the wealth of a city, it is proper to count banknotes, bank deposits, stock certificates, treasury bonds, and other tokens as wealth, together with the market value of your real wealth -- cars, buildings, furniture, jewelry, etc.  That is because such tokens can be exchanged with people outside the unit (you, the company, etc.) for additional real wealth.

However, when evaluating the wealth of a whole country, or of the whole world, it is wrong to include the tokens that cannot be exchanged with anyone outside that larger unit.   Just as you cannot count the chips issued by a cassino, at face value, as part of the cassino's capital.

Thus, when considering the cost of mining at the global scale, one must look first at the real wealth that is destroyed or created; not at the destruction or creation of of dollar bills and bank balances, which is of course zero.  Mining actually consumes electricity, that could be used to light homes or make aluminum; and electronic equipment, that must be discarded after a year or two of service.  Assuming that mining now must be barely profitable, if at all, we can estimate the dollar value of this consumed wealth as being close to 1 million dollars per day.  That is, the real cost of mining is roughly equivalent to demolishing half a dozen houses in my neighborhood, every day.

On the other hand, we defintely must consider the flows of wealth-representing tokens (mainly dollars and bitcoins) to estimate the transfers of real wealth between the various players.  The flows include the amounts paid and received by traders, the profits of miners, the fees charged by banks, bitcoin exchanges, etc..  However, in order to see the concrete effects of those flows, we must eliminate the tokens at the end of the analysis, and focus on the changes in the real wealth of the individuals that they imply.

Specifically, it is certain that, each average day, the "bitcoin system" must remove more than one million dollars worth of real wealth from some set of "losers", who end the day with less real wealth than they had a day before.   As said above, the system destroys somewhat less than 1 M$ of real wealth per day, in the form of electricity, equipment, and other goods and services that are irrecoverably consumed by mining and other activities such as running the exchanges; and that wealth ultimately must come from the "losers".  The rest of the wealth that is removed from "losers" goes to increase the real wealth of:
* the miners (as mining profits),
* the exchanges and other bitcoin service companies (as fees),
* another set of people, the "winners",  who find themselves richer than they were a day before.

Today's "losers" may become "winners" tomorrow, and then they may recover some of the wealth that they lost, and perhaps even become wealthier than they were before.  But, at the global and individual level, the things will not balance in the end; quite the opposite.  Again, as a whole, the bitcoin system takes almost 1 million dollars worth of real wealth per day from the losers, and destroys it.   Individually, the sets of winners and losers will tend to grow, and the wealth gained by the winners will keep increasing, and the wealth lost by the losers will keep increasing even faster.

Winners who leave the system with a profit, and do not come back, will never become losers; so the wealth that they took from the losers will never return to them.   As I said before, there seems to be no data at all on the magnitude of this "pyramid effect" of the bitcoin system, the amount of wealth it transfers from losers to winners (besides what gets destroyed or passed on to miners and skimmers).  However, we now that many people have left the system with considerable gains.  Given the volume of bitcoins that get traded each day, on the exchanges and privately, I would guess that the losers lose at least 1.5 M$/day, and the winners gain at least 0.5 M$/day.  Does anyone have a better estimate?

Quote
the concept used to equate BTC to the "pyramid effect" is shared if you were to equate Berkshire Hathaway Inc. to a "pyramid effect" and all costs to maintain the trading servers and techology including the effort to maintain its value equates to wealth "destruction".  Berkshire Hathaway Inc.(NYSE:BRK.B)"145.53 +0.65 (0.45%) Mar 20 - Close NYSE real-time data "

BRK is a holding, a company that only owns stock of other companies that actually produce goods and services - like General Electric, Fruit of the Loom, Coca-Cola, etc.   Apart from the indirection, investing on BRK stock is basically the same as investing on stock of all those companies. 

When you buy shares from BRK, you become owner (indirectly, but effectively) of a small slice of each of those companies.  You will also own the same slice of whathever each company produces -- a couple of blenders, a few cotton briefs, a few bottles of Coke.  When each compan sells those things, it gives the money to Warren Buffet, who takes his slice and gives the rest back to you.  When one of those companies invests some of the revenue in more equipment, new buildings, etc., a slice of those extra assets is also yours.  Finally, when you sell the BRK shares, you are selling those slices of GEICO and FotL and Coca-Cola to someone else.

So, the dividends paid by BRK shares, and any increase in BRK's share price while you hold them, are largely the result of real wealth created by those companies, either sold to their markets, or invested in their assets. Shares or BRK therefore can be counted as very real wealth, as much as your home or car.  In fact, they are  productive real wealth, that continuosly creates more real wealth for you.  On a very fundamental level, investing in BRK is not very different than buying a baker's oven and making and selling bread yourself.  Or buying a milk cow, or raising and breeding pigs.

But real wealth can be destroyed, so the shares of any of those companies, and therefore the BRK shares, may lose value unexpectedly -- e.g., if a factory is destroyed by fire, or the US government decides to ban carbonated brown beverages.  That is not different than your bakery or your home being destroyed by fire, or your milk cow being eaten by a chupacabra.  You become poorer -- that is life.

Your bitcoins, on the other hand, are not like BRK or Coca-Cola stocks, because they are not certificaes of property of anything.  They are more like bank notes of an exotic country.  They can be counted as part of your personal wealth, sure, but are nowhere as "real wealth" as a car, or a lot of BRK shares.  That is because the bitcoins, like foreign banknotes, will only become real wealth if and when you find someone who will accept them in exchange for real wealth.  Bitcoins are also unlike BRK shares in that they do not produce real wealth for you while you own them. (These two differences seem to be the reason why most experienced investors won't even consider putting their money into bitcoin.)

Bitcoins are more similar to the so-called "penny stocks": shares of failed or bogus companies that have no signiicant assets, whose products or services are non-existent or have insignificant value.  Owning a slice of such a company adds practically nothing to one's real wealth, and therefore the market price of such shares should normally be near zero.  However, strong or deceptive marketing may induce some people to buy them for a significant price; and then speculators may buy them too for a significant price, in the hope of finding such fools who will buy for even more.  While such speculative distortions may affect also the price of solid stocks, like BRK, they alone may sustain a substantial market price for some penny stocks -- at least for a while.

Bitcoin is supposed to have sort of an intrinsic value because the exceptional qualities of the accounting mechanism that establishes the current ownership of bitcoins, that consists of its miners and relay nodes.  Stocks, including penny stocks, also have an accounting system for that establishes their ownership, consisting of various ledgers and databases maintained by stock exchanges like NYSE and NASDAQ,  brokers, investment funds, etc..  There are many differences between the two ownership tracking mechanisms, such as who is in control, whether the owners are identified, whether transfers can be blocked or reversed, robustness against various types of attack, legal and police support, and so on.  It is debatable whether those differences are advantages or dsadvantages, and how much they are worth.  One main difference is the cost of maintaining the ownership records; which, as said above, is one million dollars per day for bitcoin, and a small fraction of that for a specific stock like BRK or APPL.

As said before, in order to get a rought measure your current wealth, it is customary estimate the dollar value of your material possessions, at their current market prices, and add all those amounts together with your bank accont balances.  Your stocks should be included too, because they are actually slices of companies.  However, is not very meaningful to include your bitcoins in that computation, because you can't know what will be their market value when you decide to spend or sell them.  (Strictly speaking, that holds for your other material possessions, too; but the future market price of a car or home is nowhere as uncertain as that of bitcoin.)  It is better to count your bitcoins separately from your dollars and other possessions with relatively stable value.

How unstable was trade back in the 1500s?

Trade was more complicated than now, because there were many more currencies in circulation, and the relatively slow communication channels made their relative values more uncertain.  However, the accountants of the Spanish Empire, for example, used a stadardized currency unit -- the "maravedi" -- from the late 1400s into the 1600s and beyond.  Originally it was a copper coin, but the maravedi remained in use as unit of accounting for a century or more after the coins disappeared from circulation.  Thanks to that standardization, and the extensive bureaucracy of the Empire, we can now learn, for example, how much Columbus's expedition cost, and how expensive it was in relation to the cost of other things.
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March 21, 2015, 11:23:31 PM
Last edit: March 21, 2015, 11:58:48 PM by criptix


i dont think your explanation of wealth pegged to real products works.

(hyper)inflation of national currencys which in the aftermath destroyed whole nations show the opposite.

/edit my bad
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March 21, 2015, 11:44:38 PM
Last edit: March 22, 2015, 12:13:50 AM by Fatman3001

Please don't repost all of stolfis literary durchfall

Edit: thx
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March 21, 2015, 11:46:46 PM

Shadow is rising with the fall of Evo the dark markets are thirsty

http://www.wired.com/2015/03/evolution-disappeared-bitcoin-scam-dark-web/

Shadows time is now. Buy cheap while you can.


Dark is changing it's name to DASH to steer clear of the dark markets.

The balls in Shadows court.
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March 21, 2015, 11:53:59 PM

Getting really fucking bored of all this sideways action & a year long bear market.
Can/will anything drive the price massively up?
Seems an age since we had a respectable BTC price.
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March 21, 2015, 11:56:19 PM

trolfi puts a lot of effort into it.
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March 21, 2015, 11:59:33 PM

Coin
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March 22, 2015, 12:01:01 AM

i dont think your explanation of wealth pegged to real products works.
(hyper)inflation of national currencys which in the aftermath destroyed whole nations show the opposite.

I don't know what you mean by "pegged". 

To a first approximation, if the dollar lost 90% of its value tomorrow, the US would not become significantly poorer.  Everybody woudl still own the same homes and cars and tamagochis, the same bridges and roads would still be there,  barbers and doctors would still serve as many patients as before.  By hypothesis, all prices would go up 10 times, and thus all salaries and fees would have to do the same.  (In the countries with hyperinflation, most people manageto survive somehow).

Such a massive devaluation would have plenty of secondary bad effects, for sure.  There would be all sorts of financial disasters due to contracts with fixed payments in the future, dollars held by or owed to foreign parties, etc.. People would need to carry and use a lot more banknotes when paying in cash.  The devaluation presumably would be due to massive emission of new currency by the government, which would result in wealth being taken from citizens, as a form of global tax on money holdings and unindexed credits.  It is these secondary effects that make high inflation and hyperinflation so bad.

But it is precisely because of the possibility of inflation, money printing, and wild excursions in currency exchange rates that one should ignore the money when evaluating a nation's wealth, and focus only on actual things and services.

Of course, central banks and economists who are interested in the money itself, rather than real wealth, will have a different approach.
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March 22, 2015, 12:02:06 AM

so boring people start to pump their altcoins here again  Lips sealed

btw. it's really funny to read german words in english sentences  Grin
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March 22, 2015, 12:04:38 AM
Last edit: March 22, 2015, 12:15:56 AM by BlindMayorBitcorn

so boring people start to pump their altcoins here again  Lips sealed

btw. it's really funny to read german words in english sentences  Grin

Durchfall tickles me Grin

PS. Is bitcoin ded uguise?? Maybe we can rebrand as a drone enthusiast forum. The kids will eat it up.
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March 22, 2015, 12:19:30 AM


i dont think your explanation of wealth pegged to real products works.

(hyper)inflation of national currencys which in the aftermath destroyed whole nations show the opposite.

/edit my bad

JorgeStolfi may not realize what he is explaining is not applicable to BTC but rather the current global economic reality. Why the rich "winners" get richer and the poor "losers" get poorer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btSrp8ZSqGM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btSrp8ZSqGM&t=230 euro disobedience Huh
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March 22, 2015, 12:29:24 AM

trolfi puts a lot of effort into it.
I'm throwing in the towel. He has far more time to waste than I do, and is off the wall. Back to ignore.

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March 22, 2015, 12:38:27 AM



I'm not an expert but does anyone else observes a pennant? I calculate about 2 more hours till it closes. Up or down, I really can't tell. Smiley

I don't like your upper line, your pennant looks very much like we're going down to me  Cry

 so I drew a new one  Tongue



Not likely but if the price could break and hold above 265, we might make another try for 300... (I'd give this only a 20% chance of happening / 80% chance we'll get real flat on low volume and then a big dump out of nowhere, like usual  Undecided)
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