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Question: Next Bubble Top (resulting in a new ATH):
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21497761 times)
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12345mm
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March 22, 2015, 12:45:35 PM
Last edit: March 22, 2015, 01:14:08 PM by 12345mm

it's also arguable whether or not time exists , or is simply a human derived concept ... some theoretical physicists have proposed that time as we experience it may simply be the dissipation of heat , or put more simply , entropy playing itself out ... if this is the case , it becomes a matter of learning how to re-wind entropy at the scale of cells ... which would require a large amount of energy and nano-tech , of course ... as i understand it , you'd basically have to continually re-build damaged cells and re-organize those cells into tighter together more youthful groupings thus continually re-building all macro scale physical systems of the body ... a difficult task , to be sure ... and even this wouldn't assure immortality , even if it greatly extended life ... decapitation or immolation , for example , would be hard to fix fast enough and probably still result in death of the body ...
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March 22, 2015, 12:48:51 PM

I am very curious as to your objections why eternal youthfulness would not one day (probably far into the future) be feasible.

Natural evolution does not "want" eternal organisms, not even eternal species; it "wants" life to constantly evolve.

Death is a feature, not a bug.  It evolved in the last billion years together with sex and reproduction, as a way to clear up space for new individuals.

Maybe one day that "solution" will no longer be necessary, because we will have infinitely expandable space and resources for everyone to live forever.  But the fact is that humans inherited death from their ancestors, and have evolved their body and society around it.

Everything in our body and mind was designed and adapted by evolution assuming a finite life of ~80 years plus or minus 20 (rough guesses).  Total planned obsolescence.

Human lifespan has evolved to be among the longest among mammals, actually, because that was needed by our nature and life cycle: a bigger brain takes much longer to program, so we need 14-20 years of learning before we are ready to leave our family and start a new one.

And we live for many years after we are no longer needed as parents, because we still have some use as teachers, babysitters, sentinels, etc..

Aging is the decomissioning of body and mind parts that are not intended to be used beyond a certain stage in life.  Our very desires and values change, because we are meant to have different roles in society at each stage in life.  

If we were to live forever, we could not be the same humans as we are today, we would have to change our body and mind and become something quite different.

If a dinosaur could wish for eternal life, would it want to evolve to a monkey, or to be an eternal dinosaur?

Does a child of five really wish to become an adult? Or just do the things that only adults can do, while remaining a child?

 

Life "extension" is coming,  and not too far away.

Aubrey de Grey: A roadmap to end aging: https://youtu.be/8iYpxRXlboQ


SilenceOfTheLamb
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March 22, 2015, 12:54:45 PM

...
Natural evolution does not "want" eternal organisms, not even eternal species; it "wants" life to constantly evolve...

He don't care what evolution wants, he creationist!
http://s23.postimg.org/mtj3j13yz/Capture.jpg

'Sides, he means in poetic sense, like:

Fame!
I'm gonna live forever
I'm gonna learn how to fly--high!

I feel it comin' together
People will see me and cry. Fame!
I'm gonna make it to heaven
Light up the sky like a flame. Fame!
I'm gonna live forever
Baby, remember my name

http://s21.postimg.org/leiwfxwyv/Capture.jpg
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March 22, 2015, 12:58:55 PM

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SilenceOfTheLamb
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March 22, 2015, 01:01:20 PM

... time as we experience it may simply be the dissipation of heat over time...

Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms circularity.
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March 22, 2015, 01:02:17 PM

I am very curious as to your objections why eternal youthfulness would not one day (probably far into the future) be feasible.
Natural evolution does not "want" eternal organisms, not even eternal species; it "wants" life to constantly evolve.

Death is a feature, not a bug.  It evolved in the last billion years together with sex and reproduction, as a way to clear up space for new individuals.

Maybe one day that "solution" will no longer be necessary, because we will have infinitely expandable space and resources for everyone to live forever.  But the fact is that humans inherited death from their ancestors, and have evolved their body and society around it.

Everything in our body and mind was designed and adapted by evolution assuming a finite life of ~80 years plus or minus 20 (rough guesses).  Total planned obsolescence.

Human lifespan has evolved to be among the longest among mammals, actually, because that was needed by our nature and life cycle: a bigger brain takes much longer to program, so we need 14-20 years of learning before we are ready to leave our family and start a new one.

And we live for many years after we are no longer needed as parents, because we still have some use as teachers, babysitters, sentinels, etc..

Aging is the decomissioning of body and mind parts that are not intended to be used beyond a certain stage in life.  Our very desires and values change, because we are meant to have different roles in society at each stage in life.  

If we were to live forever, we could not be the same humans as we are today, we would have to change our body and mind and become something quite different.

If a dinosaur could wish for eternal life, would it want to evolve to a monkey, or to be an eternal dinosaur?

Does a child of five really wish to become an adult? Or just do the things that only adults can do, while remaining a child?
Sorry for the off-topic everybody, but it's not like the bitcoin price is doing anything interesting  Wink .

1) You provide no arguments that eternal youthfulness is not feasible, you only state that it is indesirable for a species.  Personally, I think it is very desirable for an individual, and probably for society as well.

2) Aging is not a 'planned removal of individuals'.  Please describe how the gradual loss of strength, memory functions, etc..  is evolutionary positive.  How does the presence of elderly people that need help for everything benefit society?  Wouldn't evolution program death in a way that individuals suddenly drop dead after a certain time?
Your reasonings sound like rationalisations to calm the mind to me ("I shouldn't worry, everything is as it should be, everything has a reason")

Sure, there are some genes that can be deleted for a longer life in certain species, but these are generally trade-offs versus other properties (for example lower activity and metabolism).

I do believe that the evolutionary need for a long-living individual wasn't very high (partially because most individuals died much sooner), so our metabolic programming isn't perfected to keep cells functioning forever, resulting in wear and tear.

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March 22, 2015, 01:09:43 PM

Always in bad taste to linger too long & overstay one's welcome.  Besides, your grandkids have already bought you a nice plot.
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March 22, 2015, 01:16:26 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii

Evolution can do it to a certain extent.


I'd argue we can do it futurama style, have our head detached from our lump of meat and organs and placed in an artificial body of a robot.

We're obviously very far off and I don't think I'd want to be the trial run
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March 22, 2015, 01:17:15 PM

7 billion mofos on the planet and "eternal life desirable for society?".
U w0t m8?




I think it might even be possible eventually, but definitely not desirable IMHO. Fuck no.


By the way, some species ARE immortal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMOkXkw5TKc
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March 22, 2015, 01:29:08 PM

Aubrey de Grey: A roadmap to end aging: https://youtu.be/8iYpxRXlboQ

WATCH IT!!
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March 22, 2015, 01:31:43 PM

Aubrey de Grey: A roadmap to end aging: https://youtu.be/8iYpxRXlboQ

WATCH IT!!

http://egotvonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/42-16991558.jpeg
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March 22, 2015, 01:32:12 PM

7 billion mofos on the planet and "eternal life desirable for society?".
U w0t m8?




I think it might even be possible eventually, but definitely not desirable IMHO. Fuck no.


By the way, some species ARE immortal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMOkXkw5TKc

Fact is, there is probably no stopping it.

Besides, having driven across several continents, I can confirm there is more than enough room and empty space.  We just need to be more civilised and become better at using resources.
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March 22, 2015, 01:32:44 PM

... time as we experience it may simply be the dissipation of heat over time...

Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms circularity.

oh yeah ... good call on error there ... fixed it ... thanks ...

do you have any thoughts on the nature of order and disorder in the universe , whether the singularity at the presumed start of the universe was chaotic in nature or ordered in nature , the nature of or existence of time as compared to entropy as the basis for accurately describing the universe , or what if any influence these ideas would have in regards to overcoming death / greatly extending life , or any insight to offer in regards to the biomechanics required to accomplish such a feat ?

also ... yeah ... if we all lived 1000 years , we'd want a lot less people running around , for sure ... and i can assure you , if i were near immortal and ran a nuclear country , you can bet your ass i'd be starting ww3 or 4 or 5 or whatever ... living in a bunker for a couple decades is a small price to pay to get rid of those other 10 billion normals ...
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March 22, 2015, 01:47:56 PM

Always in bad taste to linger too long & overstay one's welcome. Besides, your grandkids have already bought you a nice plot.

Oh the irony..
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March 22, 2015, 01:48:47 PM

... time as we experience it may simply be the dissipation of heat over time...

Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms circularity.

oh yeah ... good call on error there ... fixed it ... thanks ...

do you have any thoughts on the nature of order and disorder in the universe , whether the singularity at the presumed start of the universe was chaotic in nature or ordered in nature , the nature of or existence of time as compared to entropy as the basis for accurately describing the universe , or what if any influence these ideas would have in regards to overcoming death / greatly extending life , or any insight to offer in regards to the biomechanics required to accomplish such a feat ?...

I stopped thinking in such grand terms ["I got nothing."].  A system attempting to describe/define itself intrinsically is bound to run up against something like Gödel's incompleteness theorems.
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March 22, 2015, 01:54:53 PM

7 billion mofos on the planet and "eternal life desirable for society?".
U w0t m8?
I think it might even be possible eventually, but definitely not desirable IMHO. Fuck no.
You just indicated yourself that even without eternal life, overpopulation is/ is going to be an issue.Maybe if we know we are going to stay around forever, we'll actually have a strong incentive to figure out a solution for overpopulation.
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March 22, 2015, 01:58:56 PM

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SilenceOfTheLamb
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March 22, 2015, 01:59:26 PM

Always in bad taste to linger too long & overstay one's welcome. Besides, your grandkids have already bought you a nice plot.

Oh the irony..

You missed the point.  Of course a surgeon's scalpel is unwelcome to a boil, and penicillin is unwanted by the syphilis spirochete.
The doctor must weigh the feelings of boil/spirochete against the general wellbeing of his patient.  It's a choice.

http://s24.postimg.org/6etcnt1mt/1412545914187.png
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March 22, 2015, 02:01:39 PM

7 billion mofos on the planet and "eternal life desirable for society?".
U w0t m8?
I think it might even be possible eventually, but definitely not desirable IMHO. Fuck no.
You just indicated yourself that even without eternal life, overpopulation is/ is going to be an issue.Maybe if we know we are going to stay around forever, we'll actually have a strong incentive to figure out a solution for overpopulation.

Anyone not expecting life extension technology to become available in the future is being rather shortsighted.

Ask any old man, say Warren Buffet, if they could trade all their wealth for their youth they would in a heartbeat.

More interesting to me is simulating the human brain. Lots of great Scifi written on that.
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March 22, 2015, 02:03:02 PM
Last edit: March 22, 2015, 02:15:39 PM by macsga

7 billion mofos on the planet and "eternal life desirable for society?".
U w0t m8?




I think it might even be possible eventually, but definitely not desirable IMHO. Fuck no.


By the way, some species ARE immortal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMOkXkw5TKc

Fact is, there is probably no stopping it.

Besides, having driven across several continents, I can confirm there is more than enough room and empty space.  We just need to be more civilised and become better at using resources.

*Slightly* off topic, but this is the global trend here on this wall, so please allow me to express myself:

1. Aging is nothing but degradation of our DNA information via replication of our cells. We happen to age every single second, mind you. When the DNA chain reaches the end, due to the disability of our mechanism to reproduce its cells without errors, we have the telomerase that is nothing more than Poly-A chains to eliminate the duplication errors. During our lifespan, those chains are getting shorter and shorter while the duplication reproduces more "errors" due to lack of them.

TL;DR: More Telomerase = More life.

2. What is life? What is the difference from your life and mine for example? The answer is simple. It's our memories. Memories are stored into our brains via biologic synapses which (in essence) are not very good way to store information. But this is what we got. I presume it won't be hard for next gen (quantum? ) computers to be able to "store" the memories of a person inside their "hard drive". The tech is already here - we now know what our brainwaves look like when we ie: move our hands, that's how scientists are able to produce bionic legs and hands and the person who "wears" them is able to control them via their brains.

3. Evolution NEEDS immortality (or if you prefer infinite lifespan). It's the way that we humans can evolve to better beings and develop our "next" versions. This is feasible right now (in theory) via several ways. I'd say we're in infancy regarding the tech we need to "make it happen" but "we know it's there".

Question is: Will we be here to see it happen? Or some redneck will "press the button" and "restart" the engine? It would be so pity.
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