Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[bitcointoda0]

Sigh, it's frustrating that some people in here don't even know what the term "ponzi" means. Let me unfold it for you then:

Bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme

Wikipedia defines a ponzi scheme in the following way:

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme."

Now let's see if that fits bitcoin:
-Does bitcoin have central authority? No. YES, instead of banks, bitcoin controlled by mining companies and rich criminals, Satoshi HD Moore Roger Ver knightmb Mark Karpeles Loaded FBI..
-Does bitcoin pay returns to its investors? No. YES, bitcoin works like a pyramids scheme, bitcoiners cheat greater fool to buy so bitcoiners can sell their bags at higher price (a promise given by dream)
-Does bitcoin require an ever increasing flow of money to sustain it? No. YES, mining and fees charged by exchangers cost $$$

Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. It's a true innovation in computer science and solves a well known problem called the Byzantine Generals problem.

It's a new type of monetary system based on mathematics and rare numbers. That's why it's a game changer. That's why we see 5-10 million investments to bitcoin startups every week. It has nothing to do with a Ponzi scheme.

http://www.ted.com/conversations/23415/bitcoin_is_not_a_ponzi_scheme.html

World Bank Report: Bitcoin is a 'Naturally Occurring' Ponzi
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/cryptocurrency-news-round-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme-bitpay-facebook-app-bitlicences-1457223

bitcoin is dropping back to $0.01?

[1714889919]

1714889919

[1714889919]

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[macsga]

-snip-

Add this one too on my ignore list. Kthxbye.

[gentlemand]

Not me, not anymore. I even educated myself to ignore a sock puppet account on the fly! My ignore list follows:

Pah. I've just counted my ignores and it adds up to 307. The day I come across one whole page of ignores I'll take a long break from this place. There's nothing stopping anyone else from starting their own self moderated thread. Perhaps it'll become a compelling idea soon.

[D05GTO]

Well, they just quote themselves over and over trying to validate their twisted thought process.  I think NLC and all the alts is actually a fairly intelligent person, it's just he is being bought and paid for like some 2$ ho.   So obviously, not to bright in the worldly sense.

[ThatDGuy]

Too many socks & low activity troll accounts popping up.
Pathetic really.

Agreed.  I should be getting paid like a gynecologist to have to see so many cunts every day.

Maybe get paid like a fluffer to keep BTC price up, Hmm?  Pretty flaccid lately

The refractory period for fucking the shit out of troll cunts' cunts like it did back in 11/13 is significant.

[Ask Ken About Love]

Too many socks & low activity troll accounts popping up.
Pathetic really.

Agreed.  I should be getting paid like a gynecologist to have to see so many cunts every day.

Maybe get paid like a fluffer to keep BTC price up, Hmm?  Pretty flaccid lately

The refractory period for fucking the shit out of troll cunts' cunts like it did back in 11/13 is significant.

Yeah but limp now.  Less talking, get to work.

[SilenceOfTheLamb]

Not me, not anymore. I even educated myself to ignore a sock puppet account on the fly! My ignore list follows:

Pah. I've just counted my ignores and it adds up to 307. The day I come across one whole page of ignores I'll take a long break from this place. There's nothing stopping anyone else from starting their own self moderated thread. Perhaps it'll become a compelling idea soon.

ITT:  Bitcoiners brag about their ignorance.

[JorgeStolfi]

Sigh, it's frustrating that some people in here don't even know what the term "ponzi" means. Let me unfold it for you then:

Bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme

Wikipedia defines a ponzi scheme in the following way:

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme."

Now let's see if that fits bitcoin:
-Does bitcoin have central authority? No.
-Does bitcoin pay returns to its investors? No.
-Does bitcoin require an ever increasing flow of money to sustain it? No.

Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. It's a true innovation in computer science and solves a well known problem called the Byzantine Generals problem.

It's a new type of monetary system based on mathematics and rare numbers. That's why it's a game changer. That's why we see 5-10 million investments to bitcoin startups every week. It has nothing to do with a Ponzi scheme.

The first sentence in the Wikipedia quote is the definition.  The rest tells what ponzi operators usually have been doing. It is not part of the definition, and nee not be true for something to be a ponzi.

Bitcoin does have an organization: the collection of miners and other players, that interact according to a definite protocol.  It does not have a central authority, true, but note that the Wikipedia definition does not requre one.  

Bitcoin surely pays return to investors (and that is why most bitcoiners, including most people here, invest in bitcoin).  It does not pay dividends, but the Wikipedia entry does not require that either.  The key thing in the ponzi is that the profit of early adopters comes entirely from the investments of later entrants.  

Bitcoin certainly requires an increasing flow of new investment money to pay the mining bills and to enable the early entrants to spend and sell the coins at a profit.  Mining alone now consumes 1 million dollars per day of new investment.  If the price were to rise 10x,  the mining network would consume 10 million dollars per day, still coming entirely from new investments.  The extra investment going in now, above that 1 M$/day -- say, another 500'000 $/day -- feeds the profit of those who bought at 30 $/BTC and are cashing out now.  In order for the current investors to make the same level of profit, more investors will have to be found that will buy bitcoins at 3000 $/BTC, providing 5 million dollars per day.  And so on.

New investors are obviously lured with the "almost certain" prediction of fabulous profits, "guaranteed by math", "critics are retards or statist shills", and so on.   How many bitcoin entrepreneurs and holders are now saying that the price may never again rise above 270 $/BTC?  What do they say instead, when asked about future prices?  (Didn't the Winkles say "maybe a trillion" to reporters? )

So, bitcoiners may quibble at whether it fits exactly the definition of a ponzi, or whether it is another knind of pyramid scheme, or belongs to a new category of its own -- but the essence of Bitcoin, as an investment, is the same as a standard ponzi: some people will get rich by taking money from new investors, which are lured by the promises of fabulous profits.

EDIT: Sorry, I posted this before seeing the other posts that say the same thing.

[Mervyn_Pumpkinhead]

This is all backwards. Mining power is dictated by price, not the other way around.

https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price

and

https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate


I think that the biggest fools of the bitcoin community are mainly concentrated in the mining sector. Irrationality and hopes of easy riches are even higher there, while their financial knowledge is even lower then here among the speculators. It makes sense, because you really have to be naive to get involved with something this idiotic as bitcoin mining. Machinery built and energy wasted to solve a problem that doesn't have to exist at all (PoS is the answer).
I think that most of the industrial bitcoin miners just weren't skilled enough to build server parks or machine shops. They went for bitcoin mining because it was a lot easier then to offer a service that people actually need. Those poor fools who invested into their "revolutionary high-tech financial equipment" will get hurt.

[macsga]

So, bitcoiners may quibble at whether it fits exactly the definition of a ponzi, or whether it is another knind of pyramid scheme, or belongs to a new category of its own -- but the essence of Bitcoin, as an investment, is the same as a standard ponzi: some people will get rich by taking money from new investors, which are lured by the promises of fabulous profits.

The red and blue marks certify two arguments for an "αντίφασις" [Greek word for contradiction] and basic "tool" of logic via the "non-contradictional aspect of argument" on a logical sentence or thesis. Long story short; my dear Jorge, your argument makes no logical sense (according to Ancient Greek term for "Logic").

[Natalia_AnatolioPAMM]

...

Does this represent a bear and single digit coins?  

follow your heart bitcoiner and the answer will come to you.

amen

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[podyx]

Quotes from august 12 of 2013

The price is about to go down... History always repeats itself

Look at the blockchain market price from 2011 compared to 2013, almost identical. The price isn't just going to shoot up out of nowhere.

Rally is not really showing its teeth. Making decisions now could turn out very wrong. Sidelines is better now.

It really seems like the sentiment is the same like back then.

[JorgeStolfi]

So, bitcoiners may quibble at whether it fits exactly the definition of a ponzi, or whether it is another knind of pyramid scheme, or belongs to a new category of its own -- but the essence of Bitcoin, as an investment, is the same as a standard ponzi: some people will get rich by taking money from new investors, which are lured by the promises of fabulous profits.

The red and blue marks certify two arguments for an "αντίφασις" [Greek word for contradiction] and basic "tool" of logic via the "non-contradictional aspect of argument" on a logical sentence or thesis.

The blue part explains what non-bitcoiners mean when they say "Bitcoin is a ponzi".

The red part says what bitcoiners usually reply to that.

Both sentences are true descriptions of what the two communities think or say about the issue.  So there is no contradiction.

Long story short; my dear Jorge, your argument makes no logical sense (according to Ancient Greek term for "Logic").

I am pretty sure that the Ancient Greek philosophers who invented logic would not invest in bitcoin, even if (or especially if) they understood how it works... 

[JimboToronto]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Still going sideways I see, albeit a little higher than at this time yesterday.

I see yesterday's trollfest is still going strong today.

More coffee please.

[ThatDGuy]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Still going sideways I see, albeit a little higher than at this time yesterday.

I see yesterday's trollfest is still going strong today.

More coffee please.

It does sound like a hardcore circleshlick in here right now

[Ask Ken About Love]

So, bitcoiners may quibble at whether it fits exactly the definition of a ponzi, or whether it is another knind of pyramid scheme, or belongs to a new category of its own -- but the essence of Bitcoin, as an investment, is the same as a standard ponzi: some people will get rich by taking money from new investors, which are lured by the promises of fabulous profits.

The red and blue marks certify two arguments for an "αντίφασις" [Greek word for contradiction] and basic "tool" of logic via the "non-contradictional aspect of argument" on a logical sentence or thesis.

The blue part explains what non-bitcoiners mean when they say "Bitcoin is a ponzi".

The red part says what bitcoiners usually reply to that.

Both sentences are true descriptions of what the two communities think or say about the issue.  So there is no contradiction.

Long story short; my dear Jorge, your argument makes no logical sense (according to Ancient Greek term for "Logic").

I am pretty sure that the Ancient Greek philosophers who invented logic would not invest in bitcoin, even if (or especially if) they understood how it works...  

macsga:
+1 good use of color
+1 foregnese word
+1 self-satisfied smiley
Total: 3

JorgeStolfi:
+1 rational and concise
+1 winky smiley
Total: 2

Sorry Jorge, looks like macsga wins again.  Can't argue with math

[Blazin604]

This is going to be huge my friends. Hop on board while you still can.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AgMarketplace/comments/300u3m/new_decentralized_marketplace/

[Fatman3001]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Still going sideways I see, albeit a little higher than at this time yesterday.

I see yesterday's trollfest is still going strong today.

More coffee please.

Yeah, there's a weird mood here though...

[adamstgBit]

some people will get rich by taking money from new investors, which are lured by the promises of fabulous profits.

some people will get rich by taking bitcoin from early investors, which are lured by the promises of fabulous profits.

week hands have sold.

this is gentlemen