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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26369877 times)
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Fatman3001
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December 12, 2015, 11:39:17 PM


I suggest you read up on "conflict of interest". It's not about conspiracy. It's an objective fact.

I would suggest you keep your inane suggestions to yourself, but I'm too polite for that.

Did you sell your account to brg444 or is he giving you lessons?
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December 12, 2015, 11:39:52 PM

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December 12, 2015, 11:42:36 PM



Live camera from OKcoin office  Cheesy
marcus_of_augustus
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December 12, 2015, 11:43:32 PM


....they are buying btc in china and selling btc in the west


Where's the demand in the west coming from ?

rising prices from the buying in china create new demand in the west ... it's like a free energy machine  Grin

Possibly - but shouldn't the oversupply on the western exchanges hold down prices ? I mean, the price on Huobi has no material effect on BTC in the west - might as well say BTC is trading at $10k in China - makes no difference to us, materially/practically.

Are we that gullible ?

It is not a matter of gullibility, just supply, demand and inherent delays to the time preferences for pricing, discovery, settlement and clearing.

Bitcoin moves across borders relatively frictionlessly and speedily (10 mins to hours not days). This creates lots of seemingly bizarre global arbitrage opportunities ... the same 9k btc can be sold on a western exchange and back being bid up in china within an hour. Large cross-border fiat settlements take 3-5 business days at best.
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December 12, 2015, 11:47:00 PM



Monday will be nice.











For the monetary system.










Stock market plunge.
marcus_of_augustus
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December 12, 2015, 11:53:14 PM

Garzik already submitted BIP102, which I think would be an acceptable "can kick" to further study the issue and possible solutions... The conference is over, and there is no plan in sight. I don't really think a controversial overhaul of the system in the form of SegWit is going to offer any relief, any time soon.

heh, so that's the disingenuous spin you guys are going to use for redditard herp's consumption is it? Any of the latest breakthrough improvements that are not approved by the benevolent, wise, central committee guardians and protectors of the free shit derp army are now going to be a "controversial overhaul of the system" ??

Unless of course we raised blocksize (bigger fat wheels are ok for the beer-can hat brigade).
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December 12, 2015, 11:54:18 PM

big hug for posting gl - a true master.  Smiley

My favorite

marcus_of_augustus
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December 12, 2015, 11:55:06 PM


Bitcoin moves across borders relatively frictionlessly and speedily (10 mins to hours not days). This creates lots of seemingly bizarre global arbitrage opportunities ... the same 9k btc can be sold on a western exchange and back being bid up in china within an hour. Large cross-border fiat settlements take 3-5 business days at best.

Chinese BTC is getting sold on Western exchanges? Shouldn't we be seeing a bit more (as in 'corresponding') volume if that's the case?


.... guess you missed the friday night dump in your razor-sharp focus there? 29k in 3 mins, probably some room for chinese btc in that flood.
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December 13, 2015, 12:00:38 AM

Coin



Explanation
JorgeStolfi
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December 13, 2015, 12:01:04 AM

the arbitrage is not that efficient between East and West- it was only a couple of weeks ago that there was $50 difference between Huobi and Bitstamp, Chinese BTC being at the premium,

I don't know much about arbitrage (the players seem to be a rather discrete bunch).  This is what I can infer and guess:

Arbitragers are racing against each other.  As soon as they see an arbitrage opportunity -- an "ask" at one exchange that is significantly lower than a "bid" at the other -- they must quickly execute the trades, before some competitor does it and destroys the opportunity.  

Typical delays seem to be tens of seconds or less.  There is not enough time to actually send the coins from one exchange to the other, not to mention fiat.  So arbitragers must keep fiat and BTC balances in both exchanges.  

While the price is wandering randomly, the trades tend to go both ways, so the accounts only need occasional adjustments.  When there is a big rally pulled by one of the two exchanges, however, the trades will happen mostly in one direction, so the arbitrager may run out of reserves.  

For example, if Huobi is leading a rally and Bitstamp is lagging, the arbitrager keeps buying BTC with dollars at Bitstamp and selling BTC for yuan at Huobi -- until he runs out of dollars at Bitstamp, or of BTC at Huobi. In the first case he must withdraw the yuan, convert them to dollars, and deposit the dollars at Bitstamp.  In the second case, he must withdraw BTC from Bitstamp and deposit them at Huobi.  

In the first case, he is out of the game for a couple of days (unless he has some faster channel to convert the currencies).  In the second case he will be out for an hour or more, including the 20 minutes for the two blockchain transactions and maybe another 30 minutes for extra confirmation of the deposit.  (Someone who claimed to be an arbitrager said that he used litecoins to transfer bitcoins between exchanges, because of the much faster block time.)  If all arbitragers between the two exchanges run out of funds, the price difference will start to grow, until they can top up the accounts.

Effective arbitrage also requires fast access to the order books at the two places.  For that reason, I suspect that the main arbitragers (at least between the Chinese exchanges) are the exchange owners themselves, or certain privileged clients.  The owner can see the order book several seconds before anyone else.  If the two exchange owners cooperate, they can beat any independent arbitrager.  (Unlike stock exchanges, nothing prevents owners of bitcoin exchanges from trading at their own shops, for front-running or arbitraging.)

Quote
it has been said that the diametrically opposite position (re. China/BTC) is the one being held by the Chinese than the one you have posited - that is, they are prepared to take a loss in Yuan just so as to be able to convert to USD and so shift "value" out of China.

Could be.  Whether a price situation is an arbitrage opportunity depends not only on the currency exchange rates, but also on the cost of currency conversion and transmission, and on factors that affect the effective value of each currency to the arbitrager, like the one you mention.
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December 13, 2015, 12:06:08 AM

the arbitrage is not that efficient between East and West- it was only a couple of weeks ago that there was $50 difference between Huobi and Bitstamp, Chinese BTC being at the premium,

(the players seem to be a rather discrete bunch).

Cconvert2G36
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December 13, 2015, 12:06:26 AM

Garzik already submitted BIP102, which I think would be an acceptable "can kick" to further study the issue and possible solutions... The conference is over, and there is no plan in sight. I don't really think a controversial overhaul of the system in the form of SegWit is going to offer any relief, any time soon.

heh, so that's the disingenuous spin you guys are going to use for redditard herp's consumption is it? Any of the latest breakthrough improvements that are not approved by the benevolent, wise, central committee guardians and protectors of the free shit derp army are now going to be a "controversial overhaul of the system" ??

Unless of course we raised blocksize (bigger fat wheels are ok for the beer-can hat brigade).

I'm still weighing SegWit's costs and benefits... but I know it will be controversial. In fact it seems to be your camp that is suffering defections.

You made the bed with Mircea, now lie in it.

salt..

Quote
This denigration of signatures represents nothing less than an attack on the primacy of cryptography in cryptocurrency. The blockchain represents a complete and verifiable historical record of every transaction and balance in Bitcoin. Attacking verifiability by lopping off signatures in a misguided effort to cram more transactions into a megabyte. This leaves a eunuch which is no longer the virile Bitcoin we love. As signatures fade into history, cryptographic certainty is replaced by faith and hope.

Quote
Ultimately, it is about increasing the number of places where Bitcoin can break and reducing the prominence of cryptography in cryptocurrency.

http://qntra.net/2015/12/after-xt-failure-gavin-andresen-supports-jim-crow-for-signatures-on-the-blockchain/


and pepper... http://trilema.com/2015/theres-a-one-bitcoin-reward-for-the-death-of-pieter-wuille-details-below/
marcus_of_augustus
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December 13, 2015, 12:10:22 AM


Bitcoin moves across borders relatively frictionlessly and speedily (10 mins to hours not days). This creates lots of seemingly bizarre global arbitrage opportunities ... the same 9k btc can be sold on a western exchange and back being bid up in china within an hour. Large cross-border fiat settlements take 3-5 business days at best.

Chinese BTC is getting sold on Western exchanges? Shouldn't we be seeing a bit more (as in 'corresponding') volume if that's the case?


.... guess you missed the friday night dump in your razor-sharp focus there? 29k in 3 mins, probably some room for chinese btc in that flood.

So what you're telling me is bitcoin's blinding 10-minute transaction speed is instrumental in getting BTC super fast on western exchanges, where it is made to sit for days, until there's enough of it to crash the price if sold in one gigantic lump? The trick's to lose as much money as possible?
That's how arbitrage works? Help me out here.

.... why should I help you out? You sound a bit too slow to be helped that much tbh.
practicaldreamer
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December 13, 2015, 12:12:11 AM


Bitcoin moves across borders relatively frictionlessly and speedily (10 mins to hours not days). This creates lots of seemingly bizarre global arbitrage opportunities ... the same 9k btc can be sold on a western exchange and back being bid up in china within an hour. Large cross-border fiat settlements take 3-5 business days at best.

Chinese BTC is getting sold on Western exchanges? Shouldn't we be seeing a bit more (as in 'corresponding') volume if that's the case?


.... guess you missed the friday night dump in your razor-sharp focus there? 29k in 3 mins, probably some room for chinese btc in that flood.

So what you're telling me is bitcoin's blinding 10-minute transaction speed is instrumental in getting BTC super fast on western exchanges, where it is made to sit for days, until there's enough of it to crash the price if sold in one gigantic lump? The trick's to lose as much money as possible?
That's how arbitrage works? Help me out here.

It isn't arbitrage this way round - i think he's saying that the Chinese are prepared to take a hit just in order to acquire USD.

And we also are taking a hit in order for them to do so. Unless you know the timings of course, which, as Jorge says, is best known by the exchanges themselves.
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December 13, 2015, 12:15:36 AM

A dump near the $500 was expected. Traders painting a double top. Also, some people are expected to cash out before years end for tax reassons.

I was a little worried we where climbing very fast in the last few days, so dumps like these give me confidence we are not going to crash hard in the next leg up.
we should head back down to 395 fast and start another slowly climb immediately




- Knock knock.
- Who's there?
- Correction.
- How can I help you?
- I'm here to inform you that the train is leaving soon. Destination: Unknown



Nice.
chesthing
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December 13, 2015, 12:27:03 AM


Bitcoin moves across borders relatively frictionlessly and speedily (10 mins to hours not days). This creates lots of seemingly bizarre global arbitrage opportunities ... the same 9k btc can be sold on a western exchange and back being bid up in china within an hour. Large cross-border fiat settlements take 3-5 business days at best.

Chinese BTC is getting sold on Western exchanges? Shouldn't we be seeing a bit more (as in 'corresponding') volume if that's the case?


.... guess you missed the friday night dump in your razor-sharp focus there? 29k in 3 mins, probably some room for chinese btc in that flood.

So what you're telling me is bitcoin's blinding 10-minute transaction speed is instrumental in getting BTC super fast on western exchanges, where it is made to sit for days, until there's enough of it to crash the price if sold in one gigantic lump? The trick's to lose as much money as possible?
That's how arbitrage works? Help me out here.

It isn't arbitrage this way round - i think he's saying that the Chinese are prepared to take a hit just in order to acquire USD.

And we also are taking a hit in order for them to do so. Unless you know the timings of course, which, as Jorge says, is best known by the exchanges themselves.

Why don't the Chinese just keep the money in BTC, which, according to Marcus_Ridiculous is the best store of value? Bonus: Reduced supply of BTC would drive price up. Why cash out to fiat toilet paper in the dumbest way possible?
And how does 'Bitcoin moves across borders relatively frictionlessly and speedily (10 mins to hours not days)' play into this?
And why wait & sell it as one huge chunk, are these people new to all this?

Because bitcoin can drop 20% of it's value in a day. Because bitcoin can't buy shit in the real world, really. Because bitcoin's value isn't guaranteed or protected by the government. Because bitcoin etc etc etc.
Bitcoin does one thing well, it transfers fiat - which is how it's being used.
Next question, hopefully more difficult to answer?
Divitiae miserae
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December 13, 2015, 12:40:30 AM

There is not enough time to actually send the coins from one exchange to the other, not to mention fiat.  So arbitragers must keep fiat and BTC balances in both exchanges.  

Arbitrage is to place what speculation is to time.
I don't see how the method you have outlined would work: you don't level communicating vessels obstructing the connection.
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December 13, 2015, 12:58:01 AM


Bitstamp has been called Bearstamp for the last month because its price is always behind the other exchanges. Tonight Bitfinex's price is lower than Bitstamp's so perhaps it should be known as Bearfinex until it catches up with Bullstamp.

[edit]

Typical, the very next post after this one shows Bearstamp's price has fallen back below all the other ChartBuddy exchanges, including Bullfinex.
ChartBuddy
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December 13, 2015, 01:00:38 AM

Coin



Explanation
jbreher
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December 13, 2015, 01:17:00 AM

There is practically no reliable info on the bitcoin economy, in particular on the flow and ownership of bitcoin by country. (This is a serious problem for would-be investors.)

Naaah - not a problem for investors. There is a simple calculus involved. Figure out if you like the long-term prospects of bitcoin. If so, buy as much as you can afford. Hodl. Done. No detailed info needed.

Day traders, well, that's a different problem.
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