Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[becoin]

I repeat: I'd like an example of a centrally planned production quota winning out in efficiency over a free-market supply-and-demand model.

Where do you see centrally planned production quota? Core devs are part of the free-market supply-and-demand model. So is ''classic' and 'XT' forks. But they lost the competition with superior Core vision.

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[ChartBuddy]

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Explanation

[BitconAssociation]

I repeat: I'd like an example of a centrally planned production quota winning out in efficiency over a free-market supply-and-demand model.

Where do you see centrally planned production quota? Core devs are Benito Mussolini is a part of the free-market supply-and-demand model.

The dictator Bitcoin deserves

[AlexGR]

AlexGR: So, in the 90's, did the IETF dictate a cap on e-mail size? No? Somehow it survived, though.

No, but we actually had disk quotas on our unix shells and everyone understood the reason for it because we were more technically minded. A mass mailbombing on the list of users stored at the /etc/passwd file would not only fill all our mailboxes, it could actually fill the entire server and crash it.

I repeat: I'd like an example of a centrally planned production quota winning out in efficiency over a free-market supply-and-demand model.

It depends on what you mean "production". We are talking about services here. The closest thing that comes to mind, in terms of central planned services and quotas, is national infrastructure.

In my country, for example, the main roads and train lines that connect the various cities are singular. There aren't 5 roads or 5 train lines that overlap the same distance and "compete" between themselves. There aren't 3 power line networks that compete. It is well understood that a centrally planned infrastructure in things like roads, train lines, water pipes, gas pipes, power lines, etc etc, cannot be subject to competition. It is highly redundant, increases costs, decreases efficiency, etc etc. Whatever competition might exist, is in layers beyond the infrastructure itself.

As such attack vectors became apparent, successful mailbox providers realized the folly of allowing "a few kb / a few mb mailboxes," and limited mailbox size to a few hundred bites.

Initially it might have started uncapped - I actually remember having one that was uncapped, although I didn't use that one - until they had to impose the few kbytes limits due to practical considerations.

Email account caps grew and grew.

...as technology allowed it.

[xslugx]

I repeat: I'd like an example of a centrally planned production quota winning out in efficiency over a free-market supply-and-demand model.

Where do you see centrally planned production quota? Core devs are part of the free-market supply-and-demand model. So is ''classic' and 'XT' forks. But they lost the competition with superior Core vision.

Hmm... Might be wrong but btc in itself is a perfect example of centrally planned production no?

[Ibian]

...
Hmm... From what I know scaling bitcoin on the number of visa tx for example would need blocks of 80GB.
If you do it simply by rising block size.

I'll never be as smart as Einstein, so why bother going to school (or as Patient_Bear says, nirvana fallacy)...

Can someone explain why people are complaining about the ability to send any amount of money anywhere in the world in about an hour without having to ask a middleman for permission?

Because it used to be about ten minutes a few days ago, and going to be fucking impossible soon if this shit keeps up. Also middlemen. You'll need those too

Gonna have to explain that one a bit clearer.

Because transactions *did not* take "about an hour" a few weeks ago.
Because if you wish to use Bitcoin in the future, you will need to use "scaling solutions" like Lightning Network, which is basically*prepaid gift card, for every entity you wish to do business with, which uses Bitcoin as a settlement layer* (i think they call it "open a payment channel").
Would be glad to be more explicit, just ask specific questions.

But that's the techy side of it. The meat of it is that people are catching on to the fact that Bitcoin, like just about everything else, DEPENDS ON OUR TRUST IN PEOPLE. People at the top, people who are ambitious, egomanaical, corruptible. People who, without a clearly defined set of rules (laws) and an enforcement framework (jackbooted thugs) turn into spoiled children and can't be trusted.
People who would for stroking/paltry sums, will sell you out to the highest bidder.
Because rational self-interest.

What do you mean by a transaction? It's still instant, and confirms are as they always have been for me.

Let me freshen your memory.

Can someone explain why people are complaining about the ability to send any amount of money anywhere in the world in about an hour without having to ask a middleman for permission?

Your transactions always took "about an hour," or, as you put it, "still instant."
Guess our differences are rooted in semantics. To you, "instant" = "about an hour."
And while "instant" used to mean "about 10 minutes," instant = instant, so nothing has changed.

No. Instant means instant. I pay my VPN in bitcoin and I don't have to wait an hour, or a minute, or more than two seconds for the purchase to punch through.

The confirmations are what you are talking about. And they are as fast for me as they ever were. With the standard 0.0001 fee.

[BitconAssociation]

As such attack vectors became apparent, successful mailbox providers realized the folly of allowing "a few kb / a few mb mailboxes," and limited mailbox size to a few hundred bites.

Initially it might have started uncapped - I actually remember having one that was uncapped, although I didn't use that one - until they had to impose the few kbytes limits due to practical considerations.

Email account caps grew and grew.

...as technology allowed it.

Initially, it was up to the sysadmin of whatever uni you were at.
Perhaps some providers did limit account size as a temporary anti-spam measure, as satoshi did with the blocksize. Technology certainly allows removing that kludge now, so let's not become the next AOL.

[becoin]

I repeat: I'd like an example of a centrally planned production quota winning out in efficiency over a free-market supply-and-demand model.

Where do you see centrally planned production quota? Core devs are part of the free-market supply-and-demand model. So is ''classic' and 'XT' forks. But they lost the competition with superior Core vision.

Hmm... Might be wrong but btc in itself is a perfect example of centrally planned production no?

No.
BTC is money, not an economy.
BTC in itself is a monetary tool that perfectly supports free-market supply-and-demand economy.

[BitconAssociation]

<>
No. Instant means instant. I pay my VPN in bitcoin and I don't have to wait an hour, or a minute, or more than two seconds for the purchase to punch through.

That's because it costs nothing for your VPN to trust you. That's what 0-confirm transactions are, trust.
Like an honor snack bars -- you take some cake & a cup of coffee, you drop some money in a can.  Or don't & cover it later. Hurrah, new trustless currency, the IOU!
Usually works, too, but not what BTC is trying to be.
We wanna pretend this is like grownup money; verifiable.

>With the standard 0.0001 fee.
There is no "standard" fee. There is a suggested per-KB fee, which today's wallets claim to guesstimate for you. My guess is you're making shit up on the fly.

[becoin]

It's a no-brainer.

Can you give me an example where production quotas have led to more efficient production of a good than the free market method?

Everywhere! Only extremely naive people think that a manufacturer of certain product or service don't have to plan their production in a free market economy.

[Sitarow]

eth down 10% in 2 minutes and still falling.

Stick with your legacy banking system. Crypto doesn't want you.

Edit: 15% in 3 minutes. Magnificent crash!

eth+15% in the last 24h. What the crash are you saying?

He was referring to the drop that was quick from 0.023 to 0.019.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I hate to see other coins succeed.

Ahahah xD

Well on a more serious manner, I hate useless shit succeeding. Eth is not a coin, it's not a currency and shouldn't be treated as one.

And let's be serious, if they wanted our sympathy, they shouldn't have spammed reddit like that...

I think it's us that needs their sympathy. Innit?

[TakeTheSkyRoad]

Anyone else watching this unfold ?

https://np.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/48rac0/bitcoins_nightmare_scenario_has_come_to_pass/

[Laosai]

I hate to see other coins succeed.

Ahahah xD

Well on a more serious manner, I hate useless shit succeeding. Eth is not a coin, it's not a currency and shouldn't be treated as one.

And let's be serious, if they wanted our sympathy, they shouldn't have spammed reddit like that...

I think it's us that needs their sympathy. Innit?

Sympathy?

Why would we need sympathy when we got bitcoins! BTC BTC

[Ibian]

<>
No. Instant means instant. I pay my VPN in bitcoin and I don't have to wait an hour, or a minute, or more than two seconds for the purchase to punch through.

That's because it costs nothing for your VPN to trust you. That's what 0-confirm transactions are, trust.
Like an honor snack bars -- you take some cake & a cup of coffee, you drop some money in a can.  Or don't & cover it later. Hurrah, new trustless currency, the IOU!
Usually works, too, but not what BTC is trying to be.
We wanna pretend this is like grownup money; verifiable.

>With the standard 0.0001 fee.
There is no "standard" fee. There is a suggested per-KB fee, which today's wallets claim to guesstimate for you. My guess is you're making shit up on the fly.

Okay so you have decided that anything I say that goes against your world view is a lie. Good to know.

[becoin]

Anyone else watching this unfold ?

https://np.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/48rac0/bitcoins_nightmare_scenario_has_come_to_pass/

Déjà vu. It is time for 'classic' altcoin fans to follow their 'XT' predecessors and ragequit.

[BitconAssociation]

It's a no-brainer.

Can you give me an example where production quotas have led to more efficient production of a good than the free market method?

Everywhere! Only extremely naive people think that a manufacturer of certain product or service don't have to plan their production in a free market economy.

You don't grasp the difference between quotas (in this case, cap) set by a central planning committee & a company setting *its own* production goals.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I hate to see other coins succeed.

Ahahah xD

Well on a more serious manner, I hate useless shit succeeding. Eth is not a coin, it's not a currency and shouldn't be treated as one.

And let's be serious, if they wanted our sympathy, they shouldn't have spammed reddit like that...

I think it's us that needs their sympathy. Innit?

Sympathy?

Why would we need sympathy when we got bitcoins! BTC BTC

Because we hit our capacity limit. They got sharding or whatever so they can scale to the moon.

[becoin]

It's a no-brainer.

Can you give me an example where production quotas have led to more efficient production of a good than the free market method?

Everywhere! Only extremely naive people think that a manufacturer of certain product or service don't have to plan their production in a free market economy.

You don't grasp the difference between quotas (in this case, cap) set by a central planning committee & a company setting *its own* production goals.

Ah, I see your point.
So, you are against the 21 million bitcoin cap set by the central planner when bitcoin was created...

[BitconAssociation]

<>
No. Instant means instant. I pay my VPN in bitcoin and I don't have to wait an hour, or a minute, or more than two seconds for the purchase to punch through.

That's because it costs nothing for your VPN to trust you. That's what 0-confirm transactions are, trust.
Like an honor snack bars -- you take some cake & a cup of coffee, you drop some money in a can.  Or don't & cover it later. Hurrah, new trustless currency, the IOU!
Usually works, too, but not what BTC is trying to be.
We wanna pretend this is like grownup money; verifiable.

>With the standard 0.0001 fee.
There is no "standard" fee. There is a suggested per-KB fee, which today's wallets claim to guesstimate for you. My guess is you're making shit up on the fly.

Okay so you have decided that anything I say that goes against your world view is a lie. Good to know.

Simply stating some facts & highlighting the discrepancies between those & your claims.
But if taking offense is your take away, I guess that's cool too

@becoin: Satoshi no longer participates in Bitcoin. He left when some asshats decided to "bring it on," so no more a central planner than your dad is *your* central planner, or Oppenheimer the nuclear armaments central planner.
Where do you get such crazy ideas? What sort of kids do you hang out with?