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Question: When New ATH?
Apr. 11 - 2 (2.9%)
Apr. 12 - 4 (5.7%)
Apr. 13 - 15 (21.4%)
Apr. 14 - 9 (12.9%)
Apr. 15 - 8 (11.4%)
Apr. 16 - 2 (2.9%)
Apr. 17 - 7 (10%)
After Apr. 17 - 23 (32.9%)
Total Voters: 70

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 25257028 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (157 posts by 13 users deleted.)
billyjoeallen
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January 23, 2014, 05:05:36 AM
 #78641

Ancaps depress the shit out of me. Undecided

LOL. why? It's more uplifting to believe we need guys with guns pointed at everybody in order for society to survive?
^^^
This is exactly why. Because that makes a lot of sense – I question ancap, and therefore I want guns pointed at everyone in society. Roll Eyes It’s always these same straw men. Perhaps there are other philosophies that do not advocate such dynamics...

This is a logical conclusion. Do you need me to spell it out? Government by definition is a monopoly of initiatory violence in a given geographical area. Arbitrary rules are enforced by threat of violence regardless of whether or not one has consented to be governed by those rules. I can smoke a joint, make a bet, or rent a hooker, violate nobody's rights and still find myself facing down a gun barrel from some costumed goon with a badge. You say I can move, but I can't. Some other violence monopoly set up shop anywhere else I could move to. If governments provided any goods or services worth having, they wouldn't need to force us to pay for them. We'd do it willingly. I should be able to shop for traditionally government-provided services like I shop for anything else. Instead I am kidnapped (arrested) for not paying the protection money (taxes). If I resist, I'm tased or shot. if I try to escape jail, I'm shot. Taxes are involuntary, which means they are theft. You can't pretend it's not theft just because the State is the thief.

I'm not against rules. I'm not against governance. I'm against monopoly and centralization. I'm not even against violence. I'm against initiatory violence. Defensive violence is obviously and unfortunately sometimes necessary, but if you think the State isn't a gun pointed at your face, try not paying your taxes.  

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington
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January 23, 2014, 05:11:52 AM
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Why don't use buy useful ripples instead Huh

hahaha, my sides:)   id rather use fiat!

Makes sense.  XRP *is* fiat; but it's the fiat of a weak hand.
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January 23, 2014, 05:14:53 AM
 #78643

Just for the lulz I bought 1.6 million DOGE.

The Bitcoin Foundation is pissing me off so much I think we might need something like this...

Can I borrow them? I'll pay you back right after the crash. Wait, did it crash already? Can't imagine you bought at ATH.  

What'd the foundation do this time?
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January 23, 2014, 05:15:31 AM
Last edit: January 23, 2014, 05:30:32 AM by fonzie
 #78644

Ancaps depress the shit out of me. Undecided

LOL. why? It's more uplifting to believe we need guys with guns pointed at everybody in order for society to survive?
^^^
This is exactly why. Because that makes a lot of sense – I question ancap, and therefore I want guns pointed at everyone in society. Roll Eyes It’s always these same straw men. Perhaps there are other philosophies that do not advocate such dynamics...

This is a logical conclusion. Do you need me to spell it out? Government by definition is a monopoly of initiatory violence in a given geographical area. Arbitrary rules are enforced by threat of violence regardless of whether or not one has consented to be governed by those rules. I can smoke a joint, make a bet, or rent a hooker, violate nobody's rights and still find myself facing down a gun barrel from some costumed goon with a badge. You say I can move, but I can't. Some other violence monopoly set up shop anywhere else I could move to. If governments provided any goods or services worth having, they wouldn't need to force us to pay for them. We'd do it willingly. I should be able to shop for traditionally government-provided services like I shop for anything else. Instead I am kidnapped (arrested) for not paying the protection money (taxes). If I resist, I'm tased or shot. if I try to escape jail, I'm shot. Taxes are involuntary, which means they are theft. You can't pretend it's not theft just because the State is the thief.

I'm not against rules. I'm not against governance. I'm against monopoly and centralization. I'm not even against violence. I'm against initiatory violence. Defensive violence is obviously and unfortunately sometimes necessary, but if you think the State isn't a gun pointed at your face, try not paying your taxes.   

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington


I just mailed your posts to some participants from the upcoming senate hearing, to let them know which kind of ideology is really behind the Bitcoin supporters. So expect the worst from it. Sell sell sell  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Where exactly do you live, Iran? Saudi Arabia? Maybe you should move to Pakistan, i heard they almost don´t have to pay any taxes over there. Are you a convinced Tea Party member btw?
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January 23, 2014, 05:32:36 AM
 #78645

Just for the lulz I bought 1.6 million DOGE.

The Bitcoin Foundation is pissing me off so much I think we might need something like this...

Why don't use buy useful ripples instead Huh


hahaha, my sides:)   id rather use fiat!


I still don't get why people ignore that ripple is the next step for cryto ... =/
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January 23, 2014, 05:38:34 AM
 #78646

I just mailed your posts to some participants from the upcoming senate hearing...

Can you share their email addresses? I'd like to send a few emails myself.
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January 23, 2014, 05:39:10 AM
 #78647

Just for the lulz I bought 1.6 million DOGE.

The Bitcoin Foundation is pissing me off so much I think we might need something like this...

Why don't use buy useful ripples instead Huh


hahaha, my sides:)   id rather use fiat!


I still don't get why people ignore that ripple is the next step for cryto ... =/

because XRP is pre-mined, obviously.  Also Ripple is based on trust in people. Bitcoin is based on not trusting people.  The market decides.
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January 23, 2014, 05:44:58 AM
 #78648

So i should put my money and trust in the hands of Gox and Huobi?
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January 23, 2014, 05:49:07 AM
 #78649

I just mailed your posts to some participants from the upcoming senate hearing...

Can you share their email addresses? I'd like to send a few emails myself.

not sure what you wrote, Fonzie. Yer on my ignore list. So sad. You were so cool, but then you jumped the shark and then you started selling reverse mortgages on TV commercials. How the mighty have fallen. such sit on it. much up your nose with a rubber hose.
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January 23, 2014, 05:50:23 AM
 #78650

So i should put my money and trust in the hands of Gox and Huobi?

No. You shouldn't.
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January 23, 2014, 05:51:25 AM
 #78651

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January 23, 2014, 05:52:51 AM
 #78652

Just for the lulz I bought 1.6 million DOGE.

The Bitcoin Foundation is pissing me off so much I think we might need something like this...

Why don't use buy useful ripples instead Huh


hahaha, my sides:)   id rather use fiat!


I still don't get why people ignore that ripple is the next step for cryto ... =/

because XRP is pre-mined, obviously.  Also Ripple is based on trust in people. Bitcoin is based on not trusting people.  The market decides.

This is true and the big difference. However a world without trust is impossible. When you get on a plane and fly somewhere you trust everyone from the pilot to the air traffic controllers not to kill you. If tulving or kitco or apmex released a ripple silver product backed by physically stored silver, I would have no problem trusting them. The issue with fiat money and financial markets is those whom you extend trust have an incentive to be disingenuous.
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January 23, 2014, 05:54:41 AM
 #78653

I just mailed your posts to some participants from the upcoming senate hearing...

Can you share their email addresses? I'd like to send a few emails myself.

not sure what you wrote, Fonzie. Yer on my ignore list. So sad. You were so cool, but then you jumped the shark and then you started selling reverse mortgages on TV commercials. How the mighty have fallen. such sit on it. much up your nose with a rubber hose.

Don´t you think using the ignore function is somehow an anti-liberal act.Open your mind. Cheesy
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January 23, 2014, 06:00:19 AM
 #78654

Ancaps depress the shit out of me. Undecided

LOL. why? It's more uplifting to believe we need guys with guns pointed at everybody in order for society to survive?
^^^
This is exactly why. Because that makes a lot of sense – I question ancap, and therefore I want guns pointed at everyone in society. Roll Eyes It’s always these same straw men. Perhaps there are other philosophies that do not advocate such dynamics...

This is a logical conclusion. Do you need me to spell it out? [...]
Taxation is theft! Cheesy 

Dude, no thanks. I wasted two years of my life espousing that morally bankrupt philosophy and that's two years I'll never get back. Speaking as an anarchist, your conclusion was not logical. It seems that you see ancap and state capitalism as polar opposites. I don't see it that way. Pushed to extremes, ancap/NAP under private property can justify the very basest of human action -- there simply are no limits under a purely capitalist paradigm. (Just ask Walter Block.) Should monopolistic dynamics arise, how genuine is the right of exit that you mentioned in rpietila’s thread? I am of the opinion that consent does not exist without viable alternatives. There are compelling reasons why mutualists and market anarchists historically opposed private property, and viewed the state as far more expansive than simply "government."

But seeing as this is a bitcoin forum, I probably shouldn't discuss this here. If you are interested in my thoughts on this subject, PM me.
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January 23, 2014, 06:00:41 AM
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Sub 800 wouldn't even be worth the wait. If that is all you are waiting for might as well just go all in now. You are talking about .15 BTC difference. Most people are waiting for $500 and lower.

I'm close to all-in, but my job as a speculator is to help stabilize the price (buy low sell high and make bitcoin more useful for merchants). Can't very well do that without some dry powder, can I?

It gets below $500 and I start selling motorcycles, trucks, houses to buy much, much more- but it's just no going to happen. Bitcoin hodlers who didn't sell after a drop from $1200 to $500 sure as hell won't panic after a drop from $800 to $500. The panicky and their bitcoins soon part. We hodlers are battle-hardened veterans.
It happens all the time in these types of moves. I just posted an chart of that very thing occurring. Many who have coins will sell if they think the price is going back down to sub $500 or close to. Same thing happened in the last move to $260. There was a massive sell-off, it rose back again to $160 or more, then came back down to $60, back up to $120, down again briefly, and then on to $1250. That is how it works, the price doesn't just pick a spot after a huge move and stay there levitating. There is still a lot of uncertainty and lack of confidence in the price.
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January 23, 2014, 06:35:15 AM
 #78656


Dude, no thanks. I wasted two years of my life espousing that morally bankrupt philosophy and that's two years I'll never get back. Speaking as an anarchist, your conclusion was not logical. It seems that you see ancap and state capitalism as polar opposites. I don't see it that way. Pushed to extremes, ancap/NAP under private property can justify the very basest of human action -- there simply are no limits under a purely capitalist paradigm. (Just ask Walter Block.) Should monopolistic dynamics arise, how genuine is the right of exit that you mentioned in rpietila’s thread? I am of the opinion that consent does not exist without viable alternatives. There are compelling reasons why mutualists and market anarchists historically opposed private property, and viewed the state as far more expansive than simply "government."

But seeing as this is a bitcoin forum, I probably shouldn't discuss this here. If you are interested in my thoughts on this subject, PM me.


Dr. Block teaches at Tulane just down the road from me. Pretty smart guy. I think you might misunderstand him.  The root of our disagreement seems to be private property which you appear to be opposed to. This actually ties into the thread topic because ownership effectively meas control.  If you know the private key to a bitcoin address, you own it, regardless of how you acquired that knowledge. That's the way it is, regardless of how you think it ought to be. The State cannot control society so it makes no difference if you think it should. The State has powerful influence, but that's not the same thing. That influence is decreasing with the advent of new technology. This cannot be stopped, only discouraged. A smart government would tolerate it and even appear to embrace it because to do otherwise would show how powerless it really is.

The very basest of human action can be justified under any philosophy. It's wise to see things as they are and not what you think they ought to be. A true understanding is the only guarantee that your good intentions actually produce good results rather than harm. There will always be evil people. Concentrating power only attracts them. Distributing control minimizes that harm they can do.
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January 23, 2014, 06:58:54 AM
 #78657


Sub 800 wouldn't even be worth the wait. If that is all you are waiting for might as well just go all in now. You are talking about .15 BTC difference. Most people are waiting for $500 and lower.

I'm close to all-in, but my job as a speculator is to help stabilize the price (buy low sell high and make bitcoin more useful for merchants). Can't very well do that without some dry powder, can I?

It gets below $500 and I start selling motorcycles, trucks, houses to buy much, much more- but it's just no going to happen. Bitcoin hodlers who didn't sell after a drop from $1200 to $500 sure as hell won't panic after a drop from $800 to $500. The panicky and their bitcoins soon part. We hodlers are battle-hardened veterans.
It happens all the time in these types of moves. I just posted an chart of that very thing occurring. Many who have coins will sell if they think the price is going back down to sub $500 or close to. Same thing happened in the last move to $260. There was a massive sell-off, it rose back again to $160 or more, then came back down to $60, back up to $120, down again briefly, and then on to $1250. That is how it works, the price doesn't just pick a spot after a huge move and stay there levitating. There is still a lot of uncertainty and lack of confidence in the price.

Sure, it COULD happen, but it's unlikely, IMHO. It doesn't take a genius to read a four year log chart and realize there's an awful lot of freshly-printed fiat sloshing around right now looking for the next bubble. That QE money has got to go somewhere. if 1% of 1% makes in into bitcoin,  That's $8 million/month just in the U.S.A. 108000 bitcoins /month are being mined, that's $74/BTC. Now if you consider almost all central banks are printing like mad, multiply that by 20 and you get to $1481/BTC.  at one percent of one percent. For banksters, it's a hedge bet. life insurance. It's the smart move and I hope they don't take it, but they prolly will.
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January 23, 2014, 07:36:04 AM
 #78658

I hope they don't take it, but they prolly will.

Mostly won't, at least not if they're old.  By that time they believe their own propaganda.  That's the danger of lying all day -- eventually you start to believe it.  Then reality bites.
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January 23, 2014, 08:04:18 AM
 #78659

I hope they don't take it, but they prolly will.

Mostly won't, at least not if they're old.  By that time they believe their own propaganda.  That's the danger of lying all day -- eventually you start to believe it.  Then reality bites.

I agree. Only one percent of the one-percenters have to buy BTC with their free money. And that's if the rest of us do nothing. What are the odds the other six and a half billion people are going to just stand around watching the purchasing power of our fiat drain away?  

On the other end of the spectrum you got guys like me. I had nothing. I maxed out my credit cards in 2011 and bought in around $10/BTC because I had nothing to lose. A lot of 0% APR credit cards out there.  Sure, you shouldn't borrow to invest, but the entire housing market is built on doing just that. Look at the four year log chart. It would be a lot less stupid and risky to do that today than when I did it three years ago.
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January 23, 2014, 08:15:10 AM
 #78660

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Extreme wealth may be insanity, but bitcoin is the most democratic money on the planet. in a free market, wealth distribution is still unequal, but less so because the marginal utility of money is like any other marginal utility. Only with the uneven playing field created by the State can wealth disparity reach the levels we see today.

I want to see some rigorous studies done to demonstrate these facts unequivocally ... I'm quite sure it is the case. If we had some good observational evidence of this we could rub the Statists' noses in it every time they bring up their mad-cap wealth inequality and taxation, property redistribution propaganda. The wealth inequality is the direct product of the State, and mostly Central Banks, interfering in natural free market processes of creative destruction that remove wealth from incompetent, corrupt or simply unfortunately-timed ventures and places it in areas society demands. With the massive capital mis-allocation practised by the Central banks, and their cronies in the Mega banks, wealth is pooling in ever increasing size in essentially useless holdings, while much of the world starves for liquidity and is over-run with unpayable government debts.
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