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Question: What happens first:
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26406358 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Denker
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October 22, 2015, 10:35:35 AM

Wooh we crossed the 270 mark once more, seems more stable than last time though.

It's only 270.1$ for some exchanges. I wouldn't call that "passed".
We crossed it now, slow and steady growth. Lets hope it crosses 280 as well.

Don't get greedy dude! Cheesy
I would like to see if we can hold the 270s range before climbing higher.
mexxer-2
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October 22, 2015, 10:43:26 AM

Wooh we crossed the 270 mark once more, seems more stable than last time though.

It's only 270.1$ for some exchanges. I wouldn't call that "passed".
We crossed it now, slow and steady growth. Lets hope it crosses 280 as well.

Don't get greedy dude! Cheesy
I would like to see if we can hold the 270s range before climbing higher.
Nah not getting greedy, just stating my prediction and seems it is coming true: http://preev.com/btc/usd/source:bitfinex
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October 22, 2015, 10:44:27 AM

a six dollar pump? So what? It didn't even trigger my sell order. Why do you even care? What's these assholes like hdbuck even doing on a Wall Observer thread if they don't care about short and intermediate term prices as they claim?

Nothing to be excited about but I prefer seeing 6 dollar pumps to dumps. 6 dollar rise per bitcoin is a hell of a lot for people who own hundreds & hundreds of coins. People who mock a 6 dollar pump are probably people with very few coins or maybe none at all.
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October 22, 2015, 10:48:04 AM
Last edit: October 22, 2015, 10:58:12 AM by JorgeStolfi

I am what I would consider a Bitcoin fanatic. Beyond the idealistic reasons that I choose to use Bitcoin, I have plenty to lose (financially) if Bitcoin drops in value (and plenty to gain if it increases in value). If I am concerned about my ability (as a Bitcoin fanatic) to run a full node with the current anti-spam (has spam been fixed by the way?) 1MB block size limit in place, what is going to happen when the data I need to share with my peers doubles (or increases 8-fold, wtf!)? When Bitcoin fanatics have doubts about running a full node, I would imagine that the robustness of the decentralized network has been harmed.

Yes, I am of the opinion that I absolutely must run a full node to take full advantage of Bitcoin.

The price of bitcoin has been, and still is, determined by the expectation of its demand being high in some future time.  

Until recently, that high future demand was supposed to come from its use as a currency for internet payments.  The current level of use (maybe 5 million USD/day, by optimistic estimates) is too low to produce that demand, by orders of magnitude.  To justify a price of 2500 USD/BTC (say) one would need 100 to 1000 times as much use.  

The current "normal" traffic T, ignoring the recent "stress tests", is about 120'000 tx/day, or about 0.45 MB/block on average; and has doubled in the last 12 months.  That is too close to the effective capacity C of the network, currently ~200'000 tx/day or ~0.80 MB/block. (C is not 1.00 MB/block because of the inevitable empty blocks).

Granted, much of that traffic is not payments (bitcoins changing hands in exchange for other goods and services).  Lots of it is gambling, wallet housekeeping, tumbling, notarizing, testing, and possibly fake traffic meant to give the illusion of increasing adoption.  How much of T is due to those "non-essential" uses?  Guesses vary; my own guess is 90% or more.

But even if 90% of T was "non-essential" and could be eliminated, to get to 2500 USD/BTC one would still need 10 to 100 times more traffic than there is today.  If running a full node is not viable for home users today, it will be quite impossible by then.  In other words, if the proper working of bitcoin depends on home users running full nodes, then bitcoin is not a viable competitor for PayPal or Apple Pay, much less for VISA.

Back to the present, the block size limit would not be such a pressing issue if that "non-essential" traffic were excluded.  IMHO, the best way to do that would be to set a significant fee and a significant minimum transaction value -- say, 0.001 BTC (~0.25 USD) per output.  That is how Charlie Lee solved the spam problem in Litecoin; but his suggestion to the Bitcoin devs to do the same fell on deaf ears.  (So much for the old claim that "Bitcoin will not be superseded by a better altcoin because it can itself incorporate any good features of the latter".)

By my guess, a significant fee and value threshold would reduce T to 1/10 of the present value.  It would also make stress tests and spam attacks much more expensive to the attacker, hence much less likely. (We still haven't seen a real spam attack, but it is estimated that an effective one could be sustained for a couple of days for maybe 100'000 USD/day, or less.)  Note that 0.25 USD/tx is still less than 10% of the per-transaction cost of mining.  On the other hand, it would not prevent the hoped-for 100x or 1000x increase in adoption that would be needed to drive the price up.

Unfortunately, raising the fee is politically impossible, for several reasons.  "No fees" has been a pillar of the "marketing" of bitcoin since the drive for general adoption started in 2013, and is still part of the discourse of important players like Coinbase and BitPay.  A fee raise would probably break gambling compaies like SatoshiDice, and several other companies that are politically powerful in "bitcoin space" (e.g. by sponsoring the "bitcoin media", events, and avertising in mainstream media.)  A large drop in T would also expose the fact that adoption for e-payments is not growing, and probably declining.

A large minimum fee has been opposed also on "ideological" grounds, because it would need some governing body to decide the proper value, and change it from time to time based on the current market price and the state of the economy.  Thus, the small-blockians claim that letting the "fee market" define the fees would be an "ideologically pure" solution.  But the 1 MB block size limit was not chosen for that purpose.  "Market" fees that result from an arbitrary block size limit would be just as arbitrary as fees set directly.  A governing body would still be needed to impose a block size limit, and revise it from time to time, to achieve the best fee and volume numbers.

So, what is the solution?  In my view, there is none; hence my signature.  As most of you know by now, I think that bitcoin should never have been marketed to the general public. It was started a technical experiment to test whether the protocol worked in practice, as it seemed to work in theory; and should have remained such.   The protocol mostly works, but the result is not a viable currency for several problems that were not foreseen.  Fixing those problems seems to require another couple of brilliant inventions, like the PoW blockchain.
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October 22, 2015, 10:48:50 AM

There are 3 type of people crying and screaming that crypto is dead...

a: the ones who already dump their coins
b: the ones who still think the current system is honest and good and defend it
c: trolls trying to lead other people to A and B so they can keep stealing with fiat ponzy

It's dangerous to know about c. Just telling you!
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October 22, 2015, 11:01:51 AM

Coin

Explanation
Pierre 2
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October 22, 2015, 11:02:00 AM

Now we are talking. If 270$ would be support in 3 days we have brighter future.
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October 22, 2015, 11:02:33 AM



can't talk

must party

ccmf
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October 22, 2015, 11:05:02 AM

There are 3 type of people crying and screaming that crypto is dead...

a: the ones who already dump their coins
b: the ones who still think the current system is honest and good and defend it
c: trolls trying to lead other people to A and B so they can keep stealing with fiat ponzy

d: Alt coin holders who missed getting into Bitcoin early so they think that the extra 5 minutes they put into thinking of an "improvement" on Bitcoin will change the world (and just happen to make them rich as well).
molecular
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October 22, 2015, 11:05:28 AM
Last edit: October 22, 2015, 11:25:58 AM by molecular


YESSSSSS!

for once those fuckers make the right move.

EDIT: oh, and fuck you, german Ministry of Finance, you greedy shortsighted economy-destroying idiot-beaurocrats.
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October 22, 2015, 11:17:02 AM



CCMF!!!

I'm so giddy I think I used the wrong gif!
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October 22, 2015, 11:19:41 AM

This market is full of game theory and psychology. Hence this baby will soon surprise alot of us.

  • Endless stability.
  • Hard crash.
  • Bubble out of nowhere.

Seem all equally possible.

If you take into account the psychological history and combine it with game theory. You get a hint, what our litlle baby is going to do next. Of course it's not what everybody in here expects.  Wink
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October 22, 2015, 11:24:40 AM


YESSSSSS!

for once those fuckers make the right move.


That's indeed some good news. I think we will break the $280 today.  Cool there is one way and that is up.
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October 22, 2015, 11:25:26 AM

kraken goes in bull mode Cheesy
TReano
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October 22, 2015, 11:25:40 AM

a six dollar pump? So what? It didn't even trigger my sell order. Why do you even care? What's these assholes like hdbuck even doing on a Wall Observer thread if they don't care about short and intermediate term prices as they claim?


people have been screaming and yelling moon and posting burning trains for almost the last 2 years... So all the way down from the very top...

This is definitely not a good place for rational thoughts....
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October 22, 2015, 11:26:05 AM

Choo Chooo!

We missed these times. Smiley

Huobi just passed 281$.
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October 22, 2015, 11:26:34 AM


YESSSSSS!

for once those fuckers make the right move.


That's indeed some good news. I think we will break the $280 today.  Cool there is one way and that is up.

LoL that was quick.
molecular
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October 22, 2015, 11:27:27 AM


YESSSSSS!

for once those fuckers make the right move.


That's indeed some good news. I think we will break the $280 today.  Cool there is one way and that is up.

Well, I'm not sure about that. This market can be so detached from the real world... it's also possible good news will just be seen as an opportunity to paint the tape.
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October 22, 2015, 11:29:28 AM

JorgeStolfi
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October 22, 2015, 11:31:50 AM

This price surge seems to be led by the Western exchanges, and must be due to the European VAT ruling.

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?
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