Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[flagpara]

And as you all seem to be so pro liberalism, here the graph of the gini index, used to evaluate inequalities in the society. The higher the index, the higher the inequalities.

http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.les-crises.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2F01-indices-gini-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.les-crises.fr%2Finegalites-dans-le-monde-3%2F&h=854&w=1267&tbnid=u4StMVeV6TqpGM%3A&docid=dvFeoa38LMGobM&ei=kJt6Vqq_H46Naqbjv4AP&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1219&page=1&start=0&ndsp=25&ved=0ahUKEwiqx-fBhfLJAhWOhhoKHabxD_AQrQMIIDAA

I hope you'll appreciate how incredible the invisible is in fixing inequalities. The more liberal a country is, the stronger its gini index rise. Only France managed to reduce inequalities, but hey! We got to take example on this incredible country the USA 

[ErisDiscordia]

Ok I won't bother replying you.

But you just did

Just open your eyes and look at the world and what liberalism and capitalism without control has brought us in the last decade. see it as I see it dammit!

Liberalism and capitalism without control? You are kidding me, right?

I never said anything about any sort of -ism. You are the one thinking in those terms and I say you won't achieve much clarity while doing so. What I am saying is that our arrogant attempts to create mandatory, uniform systems for everyone breed disaster. There is no easy solution to this. If there was we could have voted in the right people, passed the right laws and done the right things. Many people still believe we can. Einstein quote, insanity etc.

I suspect the truth is more terrifying than that: no one really knows what is going on, our mental capacity is insufficient to accurately assess all the consequences of tinkering with the system this way or the other and our pretensions that it is not are at the root of many problems society faces.

Actually this "truth" is only terrifying to someone still clinging to the illusion of control. Imposition of order = escalation of chaos, grok dat?

[flagpara]

Oh.
Well yeah I did, obviously, like I was going to let the last word to you, it would mean I admit being wrong (which I don't). 

But I've got to say that you surprised me. Sorry for my assumptions upon your ideologies, I forgot we're on the deep internet where all the strange people are 
I've never met someone saying that.

I can't say I totally disagree with you on the fact that we probably don't understand the reality. Maybe you're right saying that the only solution would be to let things go, which is a bit anarchist by the way 

I hope you're wrong cause I'll never be able to just let things happen. But though I don't believe in the same thing than you I see your point.
Sorry for the violence of my words. I just hate liberalism and people following this stupid ideal based on an infinite growth in a finite world!

Kiss with love from France 

[Rw13enlib88]

If you are sure about your bet, go ahead and use leverage. Just go broke if you're wrong, please. The only reason why such an extreme example as you describe would even be possible is the moral hazard of government bail-outs. The illusion of trading 10K tomatoes where only 100 exist would not last very long without this.

If you are worried about the impact of highly leveraged trading on the plight of the common man I suggest you address the root cause of the problem which is not the traders who take advantage of incentives given, but the governmental entities providing said incentives.

And please, if your suggestion involves "fixing the rules via governmental entities" don't even bother replying.

Ok I won't bother replying you. If you're a totally pro "liberal market" we probably have nothing more to say indeed. Just open your eyes and look at the world and what liberalism and capitalism without control has brought us in the last decade.

But I'll answer to those who don't understand why traders are useless.
If something is exchanged 1000 times (and that's currently the case), it creates 1000 opportunities for the price to change.
And traders don' fix the "right price" they don't "help the market to find the value of things". They increase the price and take the profits.

If traders earn 1000$ from a trade, who pays the 1000$ ? You, the consumer.

I don't understand how you can't see this!

Have you ever trade? It's a sum cero game (- fees)
If you earn 1000$ it comes from other trader.

And traders don' fix the "right price" they don't "help the market to find the value of things". They increase the price and take the profits.

Long = Buy - Price increase - Sell and take profits
Short= Sell - Price decrease - Buy and take profits

If you think is cheap = Long
If you think is expensive = Short

You're helping the market to find the value trought you opinion/order/position

[Divitiae miserae]

The "invisible hand" as commonly misunderstood would only work if there weren't asymmetric information nor externalities.
Furthermore in the past, when capitalists would observe "God, Fatherland, Family", laissez-faire capitalism had natural boundaries which are absent today and the tragedy of the commons is a reminder of the need for limits.

[ErisDiscordia]

I can't say I totally disagree with you on the fact that we probably don't understand the reality. Maybe you're right saying that the only solution would be to let things go, which is a bit anarchist by the way 

"letting things go" doesn't need to mean just sitting down and doing nothing. It does involve shutting up for a while, opening up that cramp of trying to control and thus not standing in the way of the harmonious unfolding of the situation. The Tao Te Ching is a great instruction manual for this.

It's also not "a bit anarchist" but as anarchist as it gets. In the original sense of the world where anarchy simply means the absence of a ruler.

I hope you're wrong cause I'll never be able to just let things happen. But though I don't believe in the same thing than you I see your point.
Sorry for the violence of my words. I just hate liberalism and people following this stupid ideal based on an infinite growth in a finite world!

Not being able to "just let things happen" is a recipe for permanent self-frustration. Consult the original Buddha for further explanation I think he pretty much nailed it. If that is your game and you want to be frustrated, carry on.

What happened here is that you labeled the ideal of "infinite growth in a finite world" with the term "liberalism" which seems like a total non sequitur. This prevents a true discussion from taking place, because we have labeled the territory in different map-making styles and are ready to forever argue about which map is better. Yet the map is not the territory and such an exchange will lead nowhere. The same way you ascribe the failures of the last decade to "liberalism" I can ascribe them to "statism". We will be talking about the same failures, but unable to agree on what to call them - something which is irrelevant anyway. Meanwhile the rulers taking advantage of the situation will keep laughing all the way to the bank while we keep bashing our heads in with our respective dogmas.

So what to do?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[flagpara]

I can't say I totally disagree with you on the fact that we probably don't understand the reality. Maybe you're right saying that the only solution would be to let things go, which is a bit anarchist by the way 

"letting things go" doesn't need to mean just sitting down and doing nothing. It does involve shutting up for a while, opening up that cramp of trying to control and thus not standing in the way of the harmonious unfolding of the situation. The Tao Te Ching is a great instruction manual for this.

It's also not "a bit anarchist" but as anarchist as it gets. In the original sense of the world where anarchy simply means the absence of a ruler.

I hope you're wrong cause I'll never be able to just let things happen. But though I don't believe in the same thing than you I see your point.
Sorry for the violence of my words. I just hate liberalism and people following this stupid ideal based on an infinite growth in a finite world!

Not being able to "just let things happen" is a recipe for permanent self-frustration. Consult the original Buddha for further explanation I think he pretty much nailed it. If that is your game and you want to be frustrated, carry on.

What happened here is that you labeled the ideal of "infinite growth in a finite world" with the term "liberalism" which seems like a total non sequitur. This prevents a true discussion from taking place, because we have labeled the territory in different map-making styles and are ready to forever argue about which map is better. Yet the map is not the territory and such an exchange will lead nowhere. The same way you ascribe the failures of the last decade to "liberalism" I can ascribe them to "statism". We will be talking about the same failures, but unable to agree on what to call them - something which is irrelevant anyway. Meanwhile the rulers taking advantage of the situation will keep laughing all the way to the bank while we keep bashing our heads in with our respective dogmas.

So what to do?

I have no intent to be frustrated and don't feel like I am being so.
But I disagree on the need of the map. If we don't draw a map each other and discuss which map is better their is no possibility to plan the future path we'll have to take to reach our goal.

Though, it doesn't mean we have to confound the map and the territory behind it. To put a name on something is not to close the door, but rather to admit that, in this infinite world of infinite variations, we can still create arbitrary delimited territories, each having their names and characteristics, though being able to recognize that there is no real border. It helps the discussion to take place on a common base, and to focus on what seems important.
It allows us, on the contrary, to talk about those failures, see we don't put the same name on it and wonder why, because it might be relevant. Once we admit that we're talking about the same thing, though calling it differently, we may proceed further in our debate.

"So what to do?".
Sadly enough I don't see much to do. I have few hope in our world and our future, but it doesn't mean I don't like to talk about it, in the hope to find people willing to do something about it.

[bitkilo]

I feel we are on one of those little down hill parts of the rollercoaster before heading uphill steep to $500 then down again, probably with a corkscrew on the way down. $400 seem a preety good bottom now for at least the mid term.

[ErisDiscordia]

I have no intent to be frustrated and don't feel like I am being so.
But I disagree on the need of the map. If we don't draw a map each other and discuss which map is better their is no possibility to plan the future path we'll have to take to reach our goal.

Yes maps are useful for sure, yet they can be dangerous insofar we keep confusing them with the territory. Keep eating the menu instead of the dinner and you'll die of malnutrition. By the way what is this goal we are trying to reach?

"So what to do?".
Sadly enough I don't see much to do.

“Give evil nothing to oppose
and it will disappear by itself.”

If there is a war - don't go. If there is an election - don't vote. And don't forget to use Bitcoin. Let those who would run society fade into irrelevance by living in a way proving that it doesn't need anybody to run it.

So much for your daily dose of anarchist nonsense, fnord!

[Richy_T]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Consider you want to sell your car.

Consider that nobody wants to buy your car this month.

Consider that someone may want to buy your car next month.

What do you do if you could use the money now?

You go to a used car trader and sell your car to them. They make money on the deal. Are they stealing from you? Are they stealing from the eventual buyer? (OK, maybe used car salesmen are not the best example but hopefully the lesson is absorbed)

[JayJuanGee]

The movement and stabilization of the coin around the $430USD was expected after the hike in the last month or so. It is nice to see that Bitcoin is making a move further upward, rather than downward.

I think "stabilization" is the wrong word.

It's still too early to call stable.   We've witnessed nearly 18 weeks of a general upward trend and a few price battles therein...

Even though we've experienced a lower trade volume in the past about 4 weeks, we could witness explosive price action in either direction.... Since we have seen medium volume over the past week maybe some bearwhales are waiting for the long Christmas weekend to attempt a heavy dump and to attempt to retest $400 on heavy volume?   Actually one development of the past couple of years is that weekend dumping has become marginally less effective since many more people in bitcoin seem to have access to quick fiat (by linking their bank accounts through services like Circle and Coinbase), even during the weekends and holidays - although, because of other recreational/personal entertainment reasons, they may be paying less attention to bitcoin price movements on the weekends and holidays.

[rebuilder]

What a year, huh?

[flagpara]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Consider you want to sell your car.

Consider that nobody wants to buy your car this month.

Consider that someone may want to buy your car next month.

What do you do if you could use the money now?

You go to a used car trader and sell your car to them. They make money on the deal. Are they stealing from you? Are they stealing from the eventual buyer? (OK, maybe used car salesmen are not the best example but hopefully the lesson is absorbed)

And when the total number of cars in the world is 1000 and the total number of cars sold by traders in the world is 46 000 what it the use of the vast majority of traders and trades?
Cause that's exactly what happens with lot's of ressources. 

[ErisDiscordia]

... not standing in the way of the harmonious unfolding of the situation

1. "Harmonious" = good thing. Why?
2. "Harmonious"? What does that even mean? The most "harmonious" construct is an octave -- root and second harmonic -- boring. Good music isn't just grabbing octaves -- it's complex, it's a dialectic, it's tension and release, it's novel ways of resolving dissonance.
3. "Standing in the way" -- Aren't your/my actions a part of this "harmonious unfolding"? Isn't "standing in the way" a part of this grand "harmonious" thing?

>“Give evil nothing to oppose and it will disappear by itself.”
More sloganism/distilled poesy. What does this mean? Aren't you hoping to alter the way people think/act by posting here, thus "standing in the way of the harmonious unfolding of the situation"?

If there is a war - don't go.
If there is an election - don't vote.
And don't forget to do use Bitcoin.

Finally something prescriptive. Albeit braking intrinsic consistency.

Your first post on this forum is a reply to my bullshit, I am flattered

Yes you are quite right in seeing through and pointing out the inconsistencies of what I have said. They are meant as intellectual entertainment I have no pretensions of achieving some higher goal.

Let me put it this way since I have been quoting Lao Tze so much today: "He who knows, does not say - He who says, does not know." Yet this is something he said! So where does that lead us? Back to the fact that the map is not the territory and when the wise man points at the moon, all the fool sees is a finger.

This is what happens when the price of bitcoin flatlines 

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[BldSwtTrs]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?

They are as much parasites as the baker who sells you some bread.

Have you heard about the invisible hand? This is not because you don't see them that benefits don't exist.

No. Not at all. The fact that you're saying that means that's you probably never produced anything in your life.

The baker buy primary resources, add their skill, their time, their energy and their effort to create something new that worth more.
What do traders do? They buy things that don't exist, in order to sell them on a higher price to other people who expect to do the same. It's basically a huge Ponzi scheme. Most of the time nothing is exchanged and nothing is produced.

The fact that you are too retarded to see the big picture and understand the meaning of the world "produce" doesn't imply that I have never produced anything in life.

You don't know the meaning of the word produce, you have no robust definition of it. Yet your web of beliefs regarding the subject lies on that gaping hole. You don't even know that you don't know.

[flagpara]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?

They are as much parasites as the baker who sells you some bread.

Have you heard about the invisible hand? This is not because you don't see them that benefits don't exist.

No. Not at all. The fact that you're saying that means that's you probably never produced anything in your life.

The baker buy primary resources, add their skill, their time, their energy and their effort to create something new that worth more.
What do traders do? They buy things that don't exist, in order to sell them on a higher price to other people who expect to do the same. It's basically a huge Ponzi scheme. Most of the time nothing is exchanged and nothing is produced.

The fact that you are too retarded to see the big picture and understand the meaning of the world "produce" that you are currently using improperly, doesn't imply that I have never produced anything in life.

"The big picture"...
Best argument ever. It just means "nah bro, you can't understand that's too big for you".
I'm tired of answering something that is just obvious. You find normal that a product is exchange 46 time before coming to the market? You don't understand that the more you exchange a good before actually using it or producing something from it, the more unpredictable and volatile the price will be?
If you can't understand that then I can do nothing for you. Go buy your bread that's made from flour exchanged in average 30 times before reaching your baker, and that would certainly be much cheaper without all those exchanges.
If you do understand that the more steps there is between consumer and producer, the more volatile and dangerously irrational its price become, then you'll understand that I have nothing against the notion of trading, but against the fact that you exchange goods that don't exist, thus compromising the real price of this good.

#edit: the fact that you edit your post doesn't make more your point. You seem to have a high belief in the whole chain of production, putting on an equal foot the supplyers and the producers.
Maybe the word "produce" is not the same for you than for me, but for the Oxford dictionnary it is: Make or manufacture from components or raw materials.
I think I strongly understand the word produce thank you.

[BldSwtTrs]

The "invisible hand" as commonly misunderstood would only work if there weren't asymmetric information nor externalities.
Furthermore in the past, when capitalists would observe "God, Fatherland, Family", laissez-faire capitalism had natural boundaries which are absent today and the tragedy of the commons is a reminder of the need for limits.

The market clears information asymmetries and externalities. You are confusing neoclassical economics with real economics.

Furthermore in the past, when capitalists would observe "God, Fatherland, Family", laissez-faire capitalism had natural boundaries which are absent today and the tragedy of the commons is a reminder of the need for limits.

Tragedy of the commons is a reminder of the need for property rights.