Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[blunderer]

Let's look at Adam's poll: 79 percent support the compromise. Totally too small of a samples size, but just for shits and giggles, let's assume that is representative. 75% is NOT consensus, but 79% is?

Consensus is 100%
...

*cough*

The level of agreement necessary to finalize a decision is known as a decision rule.[3][7] Possible decision rules for consensus vary within the following range:

    Unanimous agreement
    Unanimous consent (See agreement vs consent below)
    Unanimous agreement minus one vote or two votes
    Unanimous consent minus one vote or two votes
    Super majority thresholds (90%, 80%, 75%, two-thirds, and 60% are common).
    Simple majority
    Executive committee decides
    Person-in-charge decides

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making#Decision_rules

>If they try to make a change or otherwise manipulate transactions their blocks will be rejected and we will fork./Why can you not understand censorship resistance?

Not this again. No, you won't successfully fork away from > 75% hashpower. You'll have a dead fork & dead coin.

[Fatman3001]

This hard-fork is expected to include features which are currently being discussed within technical communities, including an increase in the non-witness data to be around 2 MB, with the total size no more than 4 MB, and will only be adopted with broad support across the entire Bitcoin community.

    SegWit is expected to be released in April 2016.
    The code for the hard-fork will therefore be available by July 2016.
    If there is strong community support, the hard-fork activation will likely happen around July 2017.

So if someone started a purely classic/xt pool and got more than 5% hashing power...

I see an opportunity.

PiratePool

[shmadz]

You gotta trust somebody

Right. with bitcoin I need to trust the integrity of the blockchain, that the record has not been tampered with. I can verify this myself, and I can cross-verify with several thousand other nodes across the network.

In a fiat transaction I need to trust the government and central bank, which do not have a great track record over the last hundred years. When was the last time the federal reserve was audited?

Again, you can verify your bitcoin on the blockchain all you want, but

... a transaction is not simply sending the money in one direction. A transaction is only complete when the stuff you paid for arrives at your door. Shit ain't trustless if you want to buy a car from me, you send me your trustless money, and I take your money & show you my middle finger. You get no car. What now?

Bitcoin is solving only one half of the trust equation, the half I never had trouble with in fiat. My bank never stole any of my money, and, what's more, my CC *lends me money at zero interest, to use, for free Does Bitcoin lend you money?
Oh, and my parents' money was also never stolen by their bank. We're a lucky bunch

As far as auditing federal reserve, I never even audited Bitcoin software, and shit's open source. And BTC goes missing all the time, think Gox. If my bank runs away with my money, gets haxxored, or loses $$$ due to malleability, my account is FDIC insured, so I'm good

Does FDIC have sufficient reserves to ensure everyone's money?

What about if I live in cypress? Or Greece?

[Fatman3001]

You gotta trust somebody

Right. with bitcoin I need to trust the integrity of the blockchain, that the record has not been tampered with. I can verify this myself, and I can cross-verify with several thousand other nodes across the network.

In a fiat transaction I need to trust the government and central bank, which do not have a great track record over the last hundred years. When was the last time the federal reserve was audited?

Again, you can verify your bitcoin on the blockchain all you want, but

... a transaction is not simply sending the money in one direction. A transaction is only complete when the stuff you paid for arrives at your door. Shit ain't trustless if you want to buy a car from me, you send me your trustless money, and I take your money & show you my middle finger. You get no car. What now?

Bitcoin is solving only one half of the trust equation, the half I never had trouble with in fiat. My bank never stole any of my money, and, what's more, my CC *lends me money at zero interest, to use, for free Does Bitcoin lend you money?
Oh, and my parents' money was also never stolen by their bank. We're a lucky bunch

As far as auditing federal reserve, I never even audited Bitcoin software, and shit's open source. And BTC goes missing all the time, think Gox. If my bank runs away with my money, gets haxxored, or loses $$$ due to malleability, my account is FDIC insured, so I'm good

Does FDIC have sufficient reserves to ensure everyone's money?

What about if I live in cypress? Or Greece?

Cypress is in Texas, so he's good.

[valta4065]

Damn, the more the time passes, the less I understand this thread xD

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

This hard-fork is expected to include features which are currently being discussed within technical communities, including an increase in the non-witness data to be around 2 MB, with the total size no more than 4 MB, and will only be adopted with broad support across the entire Bitcoin community.

    SegWit is expected to be released in April 2016.
    The code for the hard-fork will therefore be available by July 2016.
    If there is strong community support, the hard-fork activation will likely happen around July 2017.

So if someone started a purely classic/xt pool and got more than 5% hashing power...

I see an opportunity.

PiratePool

I can almost hear your evil mind at work from here. Like a chubby Peter Todd, you are.

[shmadz]

This hard-fork is expected to include features which are currently being discussed within technical communities, including an increase in the non-witness data to be around 2 MB, with the total size no more than 4 MB, and will only be adopted with broad support across the entire Bitcoin community.

    SegWit is expected to be released in April 2016.
    The code for the hard-fork will therefore be available by July 2016.
    If there is strong community support, the hard-fork activation will likely happen around July 2017.

So if someone started a purely classic/xt pool and got more than 5% hashing power...

Exactly. If someone ran a purely classic/xt pool and got more than 5% hashing power they should be able to single-handedly prevent any future hard fork of the currently existing bitcoin consensus protocol.

Why do you think there has been no changes to TCP/IP in the last 20 years? Why do you think IPV6 still has less than 1% implementation?

Changes to consensus protocol are not easy, nor should they be.

[blunderer]

You gotta trust somebody

Right. with bitcoin I need to trust the integrity of the blockchain, that the record has not been tampered with. I can verify this myself, and I can cross-verify with several thousand other nodes across the network.

In a fiat transaction I need to trust the government and central bank, which do not have a great track record over the last hundred years. When was the last time the federal reserve was audited?

Again, you can verify your bitcoin on the blockchain all you want, but

... a transaction is not simply sending the money in one direction. A transaction is only complete when the stuff you paid for arrives at your door. Shit ain't trustless if you want to buy a car from me, you send me your trustless money, and I take your money & show you my middle finger. You get no car. What now?

Bitcoin is solving only one half of the trust equation, the half I never had trouble with in fiat. My bank never stole any of my money, and, what's more, my CC *lends me money at zero interest, to use, for free Does Bitcoin lend you money?
Oh, and my parents' money was also never stolen by their bank. We're a lucky bunch

As far as auditing federal reserve, I never even audited Bitcoin software, and shit's open source. And BTC goes missing all the time, think Gox. If my bank runs away with my money, gets haxxored, or loses $$$ due to malleability, my account is FDIC insured, so I'm good

Does FDIC have sufficient reserves to ensure everyone's money?

What about if I live in cypress? Or Greece?

I'm sure a paranoid mind can concoct a scenario in which all the US banks are simultaneously unable to pay & FDIC is unable to cover for them. This is far less likely to happen than Bitcoin getting banned/failing/getting raped by quantum computers, or, most likely, 9 Chinese guys getting together & realizing that it's in their rational self-interest to screw you out of everything you got.

Also, if all US banks default, you got bigger problems than not being able to get at your fucking shekels -- gather whatever you got, spend on a nice Princess Stainless coffin, climb in & beat the rush.

TL;DR: A brick could land on my head tomorrow, and yet I trust teh fates & walk around with my head bare. I'm also not investing in a system of underground tunnels to protect myself from bricks which might fall out of the sky. Call me a risk-taker, call me a daredevil.

[Fatman3001]

This hard-fork is expected to include features which are currently being discussed within technical communities, including an increase in the non-witness data to be around 2 MB, with the total size no more than 4 MB, and will only be adopted with broad support across the entire Bitcoin community.

    SegWit is expected to be released in April 2016.
    The code for the hard-fork will therefore be available by July 2016.
    If there is strong community support, the hard-fork activation will likely happen around July 2017.

So if someone started a purely classic/xt pool and got more than 5% hashing power...

Exactly. If someone ran a purely classic/xt pool and got more than 5% hashing power they should be able to single-handedly prevent any future hard fork of the bitcoin consensus protocol.

Why do you think there has been no changes to TCP/IP in the last 20 years? Why do you think IPV6 still has less than 1% implementation?

Changes to consensus protocol are not easy, nor should they be.

Nor am I.....

Muahahahahahaaaaa!!!!!!

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

^So much evil in the heart of one man. How?

[Fatman3001]

^So much evil in the heart of one man. How?

Fat people have enlarged hearts.

[shmadz]

TL;DR: A brick could land on my head tomorrow, and yet I trust teh fates & walk around with my head bare. I'm also not investing in a system of underground tunnels to protect myself from bricks which might fall out of the sky. Call me a risk-taker, call me a daredevil.

And China could outlaw bitcoin tomorrow?

I guess we're both daredevils,

Woot?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

^So much evil in the heart of one man. How?

Fat people have enlarged hearts.

Interesting.
How do they have so much darkness in their souls tho?

[shmadz]

Damn, the more the time passes, the less I understand this thread xD

The thread is long, the grievances are many.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

TL;DR: A brick could land on my head tomorrow, and yet I trust teh fates & walk around with my head bare. I'm also not investing in a system of underground tunnels to protect myself from bricks which might fall out of the sky. Call me a risk-taker, call me a daredevil.

And China could outlaw bitcoin tomorrow?

I guess we're both daredevils,

Woot?

Lightning Hubs might be considered illegal in China. And New York.

Time will tell.

[billyjoeallen]

You gotta trust somebody

Right. with bitcoin I need to trust the integrity of the blockchain, that the record has not been tampered with. I can verify this myself, and I can cross-verify with several thousand other nodes across the network.

In a fiat transaction I need to trust the government and central bank, which do not have a great track record over the last hundred years. When was the last time the federal reserve was audited?

With Bitcoin you only have to trust the government and central bank of China.  Chinese miners caved to core. You think they wouldn't cave to their own government? 

I'm certain they would capitulate to their government. If they try to make a change or otherwise manipulate transactions their blocks will be rejected and we will fork.

Why can you not understand censorship resistance?

Maybe you can help me understand. So we fork, but we would have to fork away from SHA256 or they could just point to the new fork and doublespend again, right?

Forking seems to be a last resort thing, and there is no code or plan in place to make that kind of switch, to say nothing of no hashpower to secure the new fork, so it could take weeks or months and in the meantime, no Bitcoin.  During that time, could not the Chinese easily discover our new hashing algorithm and swamp the hashpools with more doublespending?

So please, explain this censorship resistance. How is this not a vulnerability?

[adamstgBit]

Waiting for the addition of the block increase to the official Core roadmap, and once confirmed my Classic node will switch back to Core.

Good luck with that wait.


The way things are looking, currently, maybe 1 year from now, at the very soonest?

i'd imagine they would add it to the road map within a week?

bitcoiners are so distrustful, i wonder why that is ?  

Maybe we are talking about two different things?

From my reading, if they are saying that they are implementing seg wit first, and then they will work on planning to increase the blockchain with some tests of such plans beginning to take place 3 months after seg wit (summer of 2016), therefore, no real need to commit to any actual increase for 6 more months (after testing it out blah, blah, blah).  

All of this sounds good to me, and really shouldn't be that big of a deal, no?

Don't we need to test things out before actually implementing?   And seg wit is going to provide some interesting and potentially unanticipated developments that need to be considered in light of any additional future changes, no?

Even though the current consensus roadmap is not considerably concrete, it sounds pretty decent, reasonable and really good for bitcoin on both a technical and political level, under the current circumstances, no?

sure but all this should be on the Roadmap https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1349965.0


just to clarify.
implementation = the code
implementing = writing the code

Oh thanks a lot.  Now you have given me another thread to read.  I'm not sure if I can handle it.   


It seems that I was using the terms implementing and implementation differently from you, and for me both terms are the same - and it would depend upon context to choose which is used:  one is a verb and the other is a noun.

My understanding of seg wit is that the code has largely been written.. it is currently being tested and will be implemented released  after the testing (anticipated in April).... I mean implemented means it is available to be able to run in reality rather than merely as a test.. blah blah blah.

as a programer the miss use of implement stands out to me. let's overlook the irony of me giving grammar advice  

[molecular]

...
Few people decide the future of 'Bitcoin'.... really decentralized , right ?

Unregulated currency money, created by & for people united by their unwavering faith in greed being a virtue?

What could possibly go wrong???

Not much, except that people might get distracted from this awesome vision and fall victim to coercive schemes, slavery and fraud (scams, ponzis).

[blunderer]

TL;DR: A brick could land on my head tomorrow, and yet I trust teh fates & walk around with my head bare. I'm also not investing in a system of underground tunnels to protect myself from bricks which might fall out of the sky. Call me a risk-taker, call me a daredevil.

And China could outlaw bitcoin tomorrow?

I guess we're both daredevils,

Woot?

In a sense.
You're far braver and funnier than I, for one. Partially thanks to the great lengths you went, to end up in your current perilous position.
I, otoh, spent my life not building a sturdy system of underground tunnels, flighty grasshopper that I am

[Fatman3001]

^So much evil in the heart of one man. How?

Fat people have enlarged hearts.

Interesting.
How do they have so much darkness in their souls tho?

Well, the idea that the fat person is fat because he/she is a fat lazy bastard is foreign to the fat person. So to make sense of the fact that he/she is in fact fat he/she starts blaming the world.

* I am not referring to the fat person as he/she of PC reasons. It's just very hard to tell sometimes.