Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[Fatman3001]

Jeebus Fucking Creebus!

https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/

1.86 million XBT stuck in the mempool!

Gimme a break:

1,900,982.81 XBT (x440 = 836mn USD)

Total fees
4.8090 XBT (x 440 = 2115 USD)

"We want to move around 836mn USD but are only willing to pay 2k in fees so we will wait a few hours or days".

Makes sense, doesn't it?

[I'm beginning to suspect that you're a bit dim.]

No, it doesn't. Which sort of shows that the fee market doesn't work.

Maybe we should invite Mike Hearn back so he can sort this out.

The fee market works great:

https://bitcoinfees.21.co

Can you see who are waiting? Oh yes, those who pay the least.

Do you mind if I copy paste this into a thread I'll make on technical so we can get some proper debate about this?

Sure, why not... but you've already made your mind that block size is all that matters - irregardless of the fact that people are paying near-zero cost fees (whether the low priority 0-1-2 cents guys or the higher priority 3-4-5-6 cents guys), so what difference does it make anyway?

My mind is made up to the extent that I think I'm right and no one has managed to convince me otherwise. My problem with you argument here is that the justification for the 1MB limit was to limit spam and dust, not to milk rich people.

[AlexGR]

Jeebus Fucking Creebus!

https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/

1.86 million XBT stuck in the mempool!

Gimme a break:

1,900,982.81 XBT (x440 = 836mn USD)

Total fees
4.8090 XBT (x 440 = 2115 USD)

"We want to move around 836mn USD but are only willing to pay 2k in fees so we will wait a few hours or days".

Makes sense, doesn't it?

[I'm beginning to suspect that you're a bit dim.]

No, it doesn't. Which sort of shows that the fee market doesn't work.

Maybe we should invite Mike Hearn back so he can sort this out.

The fee market works great:

https://bitcoinfees.21.co

Can you see who are waiting? Oh yes, those who pay the least.

Do you mind if I copy paste this into a thread I'll make on technical so we can get some proper debate about this?

Sure, why not... but you've already made your mind that block size is all that matters - irregardless of the fact that people are paying near-zero cost fees (whether the low priority 0-1-2 cents guys or the higher priority 3-4-5-6 cents guys), so what difference does it make anyway?

My mind is made up to the extent that I think I'm right and no one has managed to convince me otherwise. My problem with you argument here is that the justification for the 1MB limit was to limit spam and dust, not to milk rich people.

The thing is you don't want to be convinced, or change your mind. That's ok - most people are inflexible regarding their belief systems.

The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.

How is a 3-5 cents fee for an almost instant tx, or 1-2 cents for a few hours tx, "milking the rich" when bitcoin is probably the cheapest payment method compared to banks, visas and paypals?

[JayJuanGee]

Once it hits $450 there'll be bunch of Sell Orders so I converted mine to ETH for now. I might be wrong but it's 50/50 so I'll take my chances

Funny when you expect a drop you transform it into ETH? Why?
Most people convert it into fiat when they expect a drop or they feel less safe, do you consider ETH as more reliable than fiat?

Yeah seems a bit crazy and maybe deserves eyes rolling 

[bargainbin]

...
The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.
...

You should probably stop using PayPal & try Bitcoin. Hasn't occurred to you?

>bitcoin is probably the cheapest payment method compared to banks, visas and paypals?
Last time my bank charged me for writing a check or using my debit card was ...never.  My credit card actually lends me money for free, just so I'd use it. Imagine?

[AlexGR]

...
The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.
...

You should probably stop using PayPal & try Bitcoin. Hasn't occurred to you?

I'm waiting for ebay to start accepting Bitcoins

(insert meme here "still waiting" / skeleton).

[Fatman3001]

Jeebus Fucking Creebus!

https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/

1.86 million XBT stuck in the mempool!

Gimme a break:

1,900,982.81 XBT (x440 = 836mn USD)

Total fees
4.8090 XBT (x 440 = 2115 USD)

"We want to move around 836mn USD but are only willing to pay 2k in fees so we will wait a few hours or days".

Makes sense, doesn't it?

[I'm beginning to suspect that you're a bit dim.]

No, it doesn't. Which sort of shows that the fee market doesn't work.

Maybe we should invite Mike Hearn back so he can sort this out.

The fee market works great:

https://bitcoinfees.21.co

Can you see who are waiting? Oh yes, those who pay the least.

Do you mind if I copy paste this into a thread I'll make on technical so we can get some proper debate about this?

Sure, why not... but you've already made your mind that block size is all that matters - irregardless of the fact that people are paying near-zero cost fees (whether the low priority 0-1-2 cents guys or the higher priority 3-4-5-6 cents guys), so what difference does it make anyway?

My mind is made up to the extent that I think I'm right and no one has managed to convince me otherwise. My problem with you argument here is that the justification for the 1MB limit was to limit spam and dust, not to milk rich people.

The thing is you don't want to be convinced, or change your mind. That's ok - most people are inflexible regarding their belief systems.

The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.

How is a 3-5 cents fee for an almost instant tx, or 1-2 cents for a few hours tx, "milking the rich" when bitcoin is probably the cheapest payment method compared to banks, visas and paypals?

But, that's irrelevant.

The problem is that genuine transactions aren't getting through.

[bargainbin]

...
The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.
...

You should probably stop using PayPal & try Bitcoin. Hasn't occurred to you?

I'm waiting for ebay to start accepting Bitcoins

(insert meme here "still waiting" / skeleton).

PayPal can afford to charge its fees because people like yourself are willing to pay them. Because eBay is free to not accept irreversible Beanies. Because free market.
Lrn2free market, AlexGR

Edit: The ability to reverse transactions is essential for eBay, and most online trading, to function. Beanies might be trustless, but the guy selling you alpaca socks is not. You send BTC, get dick instead of alpaca socks, wat do nao?
That's where PayPal & its exorbitant fees comes in.
That's where credit cards come in for lower-risk transactions.

[AlexGR]

...
The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.
...

You should probably stop using PayPal & try Bitcoin. Hasn't occurred to you?

I'm waiting for ebay to start accepting Bitcoins

(insert meme here "still waiting" / skeleton).

PayPal can afford to charge its fees because people like yourself are willing to pay them. Because eBay is free to not accept irreversible Beanies. Because free market.
Lrn2free market, AlexGR

True. Still ebay and paypal dominate the online selling market, so not much choice out there if you want to hit a large pool of potential buyers. It's like paying the pimp, lol.

At some point -we can always hope it'll happen- perhaps we'll be able to do the same through decentralized markets and bitcoins or altcoins, that actually get decent volume in terms of listings and transactions.

Jeebus Fucking Creebus!

https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/

1.86 million XBT stuck in the mempool!

Gimme a break:

1,900,982.81 XBT (x440 = 836mn USD)

Total fees
4.8090 XBT (x 440 = 2115 USD)

"We want to move around 836mn USD but are only willing to pay 2k in fees so we will wait a few hours or days".

Makes sense, doesn't it?

[I'm beginning to suspect that you're a bit dim.]

No, it doesn't. Which sort of shows that the fee market doesn't work.

Maybe we should invite Mike Hearn back so he can sort this out.

The fee market works great:

https://bitcoinfees.21.co

Can you see who are waiting? Oh yes, those who pay the least.

Do you mind if I copy paste this into a thread I'll make on technical so we can get some proper debate about this?

Sure, why not... but you've already made your mind that block size is all that matters - irregardless of the fact that people are paying near-zero cost fees (whether the low priority 0-1-2 cents guys or the higher priority 3-4-5-6 cents guys), so what difference does it make anyway?

My mind is made up to the extent that I think I'm right and no one has managed to convince me otherwise. My problem with you argument here is that the justification for the 1MB limit was to limit spam and dust, not to milk rich people.

The thing is you don't want to be convinced, or change your mind. That's ok - most people are inflexible regarding their belief systems.

The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.

How is a 3-5 cents fee for an almost instant tx, or 1-2 cents for a few hours tx, "milking the rich" when bitcoin is probably the cheapest payment method compared to banks, visas and paypals?

But, that's irrelevant.

The problem is that genuine transactions aren't getting through.

You can stick various types of stamps on an envelope and depending the accumulated value of the stamps you can ask for first priority, second priority, express, etc.

If, on the other hand, you don't buy stamps that add up to the proper value of even the basic service, your mail will be rejected.

The legitimacy of the intent of the sender is not in question in that case but his level of intelligence is in question - if he expects to conduct his business by not paying what he should.

In bitcoin it's actually better because you have hope that even at 0.4cents or 1 cents, you can get confirmed after a long wait - or you might even get added for free (!).

Now, if people don't know how to set fees, or what fees are appropriate, that may be related to ignoring how BTC is used, or some design failure of the user-interface which is inadequate in warning the user about whether he needs 1c-2c-5c etc and how long it will take for his confirmation. Still, I think with 0.12 you can RBF and bump up your fee and be on your way even if you got it wrong the first time.

What it definitely isn't: a block-size issue.

[bitebits]

Speaking of alts, I'm going to come up with an alt coin called "Blockchain".

That way all of the news reporters that want to downplay Bitcoin and talk about "Blockchain" will be pumping my shitcoin.

The standard media formula has become...if it's bad news, use 'Bitcoin'. If good news, use 'Blockchain'.

I'm gonna be rich bitches.

Dammit, that is pretty clever. Guess I need to call my alt coin 'Blockchain 2.0' to indicate yours is not relevant anymore.

[BayAreaCoins]

24,000 unconfirmed transactions... what did I wake up to?!  

[bargainbin]

...
The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.
...

You should probably stop using PayPal & try Bitcoin. Hasn't occurred to you?

I'm waiting for ebay to start accepting Bitcoins

(insert meme here "still waiting" / skeleton).

PayPal can afford to charge its fees because people like yourself are willing to pay them. Because eBay is free to not accept irreversible Beanies. Because free market.
Lrn2free market, AlexGR

True. Still ebay and paypal dominate the online selling market, so not much choice out there if you want to hit a large pool of potential buyers. It's like paying the pimp, lol.

No. PayPal is just one of the payment methods available on eBay. You chose to use PayPal.
That said, eBay is far from the only online marketplace.
It's the only one worth using tho, because already explained.  

At some point -we can always hope it'll happen- perhaps we'll be able to do the same through decentralized markets and bitcoins or altcoins, that actually get decent volume in terms of listings and transactions.

yeah, I understand the console version of Open Bazaar or whatever is available.

Edit from above: The ability to reverse transactions is essential for eBay, and most online trading, to function. Beanies might be trustless, but the guy selling you alpaca socks is not. You send BTC, get dick instead of alpaca socks, wat do nao?
That's where PayPal & its exorbitant fees comes in.
That's where credit cards come in for lower-risk transactions.

[bargainbin]

...
You can stick various types of stamps on an envelope and depending the accumulated value of the stamps you can ask for first priority, second priority, express, etc.

If, on the other hand, you don't buy stamps that add up to the proper value of even the basic service, your mail will be rejected.
...

If my post office had a policy of letting me guess the price of stamp to put on my letters, and email was an alternative...
*And if I found out the price of mailing a letter was gonna skyrocket any day now, I'd have no problem with teaching Granny how to use a 'puter.

[AlexGR]

...
The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.
...

You should probably stop using PayPal & try Bitcoin. Hasn't occurred to you?

I'm waiting for ebay to start accepting Bitcoins

(insert meme here "still waiting" / skeleton).

PayPal can afford to charge its fees because people like yourself are willing to pay them. Because eBay is free to not accept irreversible Beanies. Because free market.
Lrn2free market, AlexGR

True. Still ebay and paypal dominate the online selling market, so not much choice out there if you want to hit a large pool of potential buyers. It's like paying the pimp, lol.

No. PayPal is just one of the payment methods available on eBay. You chose to use PayPal.
That said, eBay is far from the only online marketplace.
It's the only one worth using tho, because already explained.  

At some point -we can always hope it'll happen- perhaps we'll be able to do the same through decentralized markets and bitcoins or altcoins, that actually get decent volume in terms of listings and transactions.

yeah, I understand the console version of Open Bazaar or whatever is available.

Edit from above: The ability to reverse transactions is essential for eBay, and most online trading, to function. Beanies might be trustless, but the guy selling you alpaca socks is not. You send BTC, get dick instead of alpaca socks, wat do nao?
That's where PayPal & its exorbitant fees comes in.
That's where credit cards come in for lower-risk transactions.

Yeah, from one perspective that is true. Still ebay and paypal make a somewhat arbitrary choice that while the risk is there, it will be entirely shifted to the seller's side. The buyer is placed on a pedestal where he can do no wrong, allowing him to scam a seller with any excuse possible.

...
You can stick various types of stamps on an envelope and depending the accumulated value of the stamps you can ask for first priority, second priority, express, etc.

If, on the other hand, you don't buy stamps that add up to the proper value of even the basic service, your mail will be rejected.
...

If my post office had a policy of letting me guess the price of stamp to put on my letters, and email was an alternative...
*And if I found out the price of mailing a letter was gonna skyrocket any day now, I'd have no problem with teaching Granny how to use a 'puter.

Fee estimation breakdowns are a user-interface issue, not a block-size issue. If a wallet fails to properly estimate fees, then an external site should be used.

In any case, guaranteed first priority is fairly constant at levels around 50 satoshi per byte in the last couple of months. With RBF it should be possible to bump up fees if one has made an error of inserting too-low a fee.

[bargainbin]

...
The other day I got 250$ in paypal. From sender to recipient's bank account (=my bank account) I lost 20$ in various fees and conversions - and it took 4 days btw because there was a weekend in-between and a "random security check" by paypal that got me +1 day delay.
...

You should probably stop using PayPal & try Bitcoin. Hasn't occurred to you?

I'm waiting for ebay to start accepting Bitcoins

(insert meme here "still waiting" / skeleton).

PayPal can afford to charge its fees because people like yourself are willing to pay them. Because eBay is free to not accept irreversible Beanies. Because free market.
Lrn2free market, AlexGR

True. Still ebay and paypal dominate the online selling market, so not much choice out there if you want to hit a large pool of potential buyers. It's like paying the pimp, lol.

No. PayPal is just one of the payment methods available on eBay. You chose to use PayPal.
That said, eBay is far from the only online marketplace.
It's the only one worth using tho, because already explained.  

At some point -we can always hope it'll happen- perhaps we'll be able to do the same through decentralized markets and bitcoins or altcoins, that actually get decent volume in terms of listings and transactions.

yeah, I understand the console version of Open Bazaar or whatever is available.

Edit from above: The ability to reverse transactions is essential for eBay, and most online trading, to function. Beanies might be trustless, but the guy selling you alpaca socks is not. You send BTC, get dick instead of alpaca socks, wat do nao?
That's where PayPal & its exorbitant fees comes in.
That's where credit cards come in for lower-risk transactions.

Yeah, from one perspective that is true. Still ebay and paypal makes a somewhat arbitrary choice that while the risk is there, it will be entirely shifted to the seller's side. The buyer is placed on a pedestal where he can do no wrong, allowing him to scam a seller with any excuse possible.

That's because it minimizes headaches & maximizes profit -- their rational self-interest. If eBay could make more money by shifting the responsibility onto the buyer, trust me -- they would. But it don't work good like that.
So they don't.
Also: free market; don't have to justify dick. Don't wanna use PayPal? Don't wanna use CC or checks? Feel free to vote with your feet & take your business to AlphaBay

[Fatman3001]

But, that's irrelevant.

The problem is that genuine transactions aren't getting through.

You can stick various types of stamps on an envelope and depending the accumulated value of the stamps you can ask for first priority, second priority, express, etc.

If, on the other hand, you don't buy stamps that add up to the proper value of even the basic service, your mail will be rejected.

The legitimacy of the intent of the sender is not in question in that case but his level of intelligence is in question - if he expects to conduct his business by not paying what he should.

In bitcoin it's actually better because you have hope that even at 0.4cents or 1 cents, you can get confirmed after a long wait - or you might even get added for free (!).

Now, if people don't know how to set fees, or what fees are appropriate, that may be related to ignoring how BTC is used, or some design failure of the user-interface which is inadequate in warning the user about whether he needs 1c-2c-5c etc and how long it will take for his confirmation. Still, I think with 0.12 you can RBF and bump up your fee and be on your way even if you got it wrong the first time.

What it definitely isn't: a block-size issue.

Because fees add capacity. Got it!



However, my point was that I thought a situation where large numbers of genuine transactions got stuck in the mempool was a situation we wanted to avoid. But as Mike Hearn predicted, users aren't just magically using the correct fee. Almost every fee is 0.0001. Which used to be a very good fee, but today it will get you stuck.

Edit: So basically the situation is like this: the fee market doesn't work because users are insufficiently aware of the issue, and even if it did "work" it seems there are much more than 1MB per block worth of genuine txs at times.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[rebuilder]

AlexGR: Who should decide what the fair price of a tx is?

[billyjoeallen]

Regarding fees and blocksize:
People use the best option they have until a better option materializes. This should be obvious. What is going to prevent people from using an altcoin when one becomes a better option, other than censorship and DDoS attacks? 

I watch Shark Tank and it has given me a good idea how successful investors think. Is the idea proprietary? What is the barrier to entry for competition? Is management skilled and motivated?

If you are not investing in a proprietary idea, You have to be investing in the skills/motivation/track record of management. If you aren't investing in at least one of those two things, you are throwing money away.

So knowing that, is Bitcoin a good investment?

[becoin]

Who should decide what the fair price of a tx is?

Competition between miners.