Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[explorer]

i got my finger on the tiger 100BTC about the get DUMPED into ETH

someone stop me~!

Check liquidity first. Drunk whales tend to make a splash.

All these animals!  Putting your finger on the tiger can also be dangerous when you are drunk.
Next: Pin the tail on the donkey!

[Fatman3001]

i got my finger on the tiger 100BTC about the get DUMPED into ETH

someone stop me~!

Check liquidity first. Drunk whales tend to make a splash.

All these animals!  Putting your finger on the tiger can also be dangerous when you are drunk.
Next: Pin the tail on the donkey!

?

So Adam is Eeyore?

[explorer]

i got my finger on the tiger 100BTC about the get DUMPED into ETH

someone stop me~!

Check liquidity first. Drunk whales tend to make a splash.

All these animals!  Putting your finger on the tiger can also be dangerous when you are drunk.
Next: Pin the tail on the donkey!

?

So Adam is Eeyore?

You've seen his tears, and heard him bray.  You be the judge!

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[Andre#]

I think it's a good analogy, which makes the issue easier to understand. If there are flaws in the analogy, I'm happy to discuss them. The criticism of AlexGR that people on a bus are real, and Bitcoin transactions in a block (according to him) are not, is just childish.

His other remark that it's cheap to buy all the space in a block (because blocks are quite small and transactions cheap), doesn't discredit the analogy. If someone wants to take out the high speed train from Amsterdam to Paris, he can buy all the train tickets. It's doable, and effectively a DOS attack preventing any other people from using the train. If anything, it shows my analogy is a correct one.

Not there yet.

When you broadcast a tx, where you "pay", say, 1 satoshi per byte, what you are *really* doing is that you are stating your intention that if you get included in some block then you will pay the said amount.

You don't actually pay anything beforehand. The payment is only done upon inclusion. If you get the service, you get paid. If someone else pays more than you, then HE gets it, not you. In that scenario, where he got in and you didn't, the only party paying is him, not you. You haven't paid anything. You only said that you were willing to pay a trivial amount, which was less than him, and the miner said ok, you aren't paying me that much, so I'm going to process that other guy who pays me more.

You are correct, Bitcoin tx are blind auctions. But it also works the other way around. Once you have issued a tx with a decent fee that you expect to be included, someone can come along and flood the (small) block with txs with a bit higher fee. It doesn't even have to be malicious -- a sudden event causing a lot of extra txs will do the trick. Your tx will get "stuck", and you are left behind frustrated. As has been demonstrated recently.

[UngratefulTony]

O, really?

Just smile and nod, while politely increasing distance.

I think he's got assburgers.

[molecular]

AlexGR, do you allow for the possibility that maybe small blocks isn't a good idea?

Timing is crucial.

Even 1TB per year blocks (20mb/block) will have its time when 20mb/block will be "alright".

Upgrade too soon, you'll have 10gb txs and 990gb spam.

Upgrade on time, you'll get 800-950gb txs and 50-200gb spam.

I don't understand why it's spam when it pays a fee. Miners are free to exclude tx if the fee is too small.

[lottery248]

Coin



Explanation

*considers the bitstamp rate as a laughingstock, and point to that graph error, then R.o.f.l's hard.
ChartBuddy is seemed to be broken. if not, then the price shown would not like that with 6 unnecessary decimals.

[molecular]

Wow, nailed that little ETH pump perfectly. I'm all out of ETH now, doubled my BTC in the last couple of weeks plus now have a DASH masternode. Good stuff. Thank you whales, you may now dump all the ETH.

It'll take another week at least. First bitfinex fun, then bitfinex swap market liquid. Then shorting on leverage.

[ButtLava]

I think it's a good analogy, which makes the issue easier to understand. If there are flaws in the analogy, I'm happy to discuss them. The criticism of AlexGR that people on a bus are real, and Bitcoin transactions in a block (according to him) are not, is just childish.

His other remark that it's cheap to buy all the space in a block (because blocks are quite small and transactions cheap), doesn't discredit the analogy. If someone wants to take out the high speed train from Amsterdam to Paris, he can buy all the train tickets. It's doable, and effectively a DOS attack preventing any other people from using the train. If anything, it shows my analogy is a correct one.

Not there yet.

When you broadcast a tx, where you "pay", say, 1 satoshi per byte, what you are *really* doing is that you are stating your intention that if you get included in some block then you will pay the said amount.

You don't actually pay anything beforehand. The payment is only done upon inclusion. If you get the service, you get paid. If someone else pays more than you, then HE gets it, not you. In that scenario, where he got in and you didn't, the only party paying is him, not you. You haven't paid anything. You only said that you were willing to pay a trivial amount, which was less than him, and the miner said ok, you aren't paying me that much, so I'm going to process that other guy who pays me more.

You are correct, Bitcoin tx are blind auctions. But it also works the other way around. Once you have issued a tx with a decent fee that you expect to be included, someone can come along and flood the (small) block with txs with a bit higher fee. It doesn't even have to be malicious -- a sudden event causing a lot of extra txs will do the trick. Your tx will get "stuck", and you are left behind frustrated. As has been demonstrated recently.

Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Blind Self Auctioning System. Maybe that's more accurate now.  

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[Fatman3001]

AlexGR, do you allow for the possibility that maybe small blocks isn't a good idea?

Timing is crucial.

Even 1TB per year blocks (20mb/block) will have its time when 20mb/block will be "alright".

Upgrade too soon, you'll have 10gb txs and 990gb spam.

Upgrade on time, you'll get 800-950gb txs and 50-200gb spam.

I don't understand why it's spam when it pays a fee. Miners are free to exclude tx if the fee is too small.

I sort of like his moral approach to txs. Maybe we could introduce KYC on protocol level and purge the system for drug and CP payments as well. The latter seems even worse than spam txs.

[ButtLava]

AlexGR, do you allow for the possibility that maybe small blocks isn't a good idea?

Timing is crucial.

Even 1TB per year blocks (20mb/block) will have its time when 20mb/block will be "alright".

Upgrade too soon, you'll have 10gb txs and 990gb spam.

Upgrade on time, you'll get 800-950gb txs and 50-200gb spam.

I don't understand why it's spam when it pays a fee. Miners are free to exclude tx if the fee is too small.

It's not, and nobody seems to think this through. Since you can't (usually, unless through analysis or public announcement of intention) know the source or purpose of a transaction, spam in bitcoin space can only be defined as a percentage function of a transactions fee value relative to other transactions or its probability of block inclusion. So like, if a transaction is in the bottom 10% of currently average fees paid, maybe you consider that spam... or maybe you consider transactions in the bottom 50% spam. All relative to the viewer. Or maybe we are all hodlers, and none of us are actually using bitcoin for anything useful, and all of it is spam. But then you have to ask, what is useful? What if a company that is literally doing nothing but spamming the network with 'useless' transactions but is paying good fees for it and pushing useful transactions away? Is that spam?

Spam is a word that is only useful for the brain to justify something. It's not a number and bitcoin only cares about the math.

[Andre#]

AlexGR, do you allow for the possibility that maybe small blocks isn't a good idea?

Timing is crucial.

Even 1TB per year blocks (20mb/block) will have its time when 20mb/block will be "alright".

Upgrade too soon, you'll have 10gb txs and 990gb spam.

Upgrade on time, you'll get 800-950gb txs and 50-200gb spam.

I don't understand why it's spam when it pays a fee. Miners are free to exclude tx if the fee is too small.

I sort of like his moral approach to txs. Maybe we could introduce KYC on protocol level and purge the system for drug and CP payments as well. The latter seems even worse than spam txs.

I suspect those are the ones that do the long chain txs. So by censoring purging those we virtually triple the block size limit. Yaay! 

[8up]

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/microsoft-store-doesnt-accept-bitcoin

[Fatman3001]

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/microsoft-store-doesnt-accept-bitcoin

Edit: If this is due to the recent network disruptions Bitcoin is in a world of pain.

[Dotto]

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/microsoft-store-doesnt-accept-bitcoin

If you are not making money now is that you are doing it wrong. Guys, diversify, enjoy, and then short the helluva of...  

[julian071]

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/microsoft-store-doesnt-accept-bitcoin

Edit: If this is due to the recent network disruptions Bitcoin is in a world of pain.

Hung-over adam is not gonna like this =(

[8up]

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/microsoft-store-doesnt-accept-bitcoin

If you are not making money now is that you are doing it wrong. Guys, diversify, enjoy, and then short the helluva of...  

For now, I am BTC long and ETH short.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation