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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26408271 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
podyx
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March 12, 2016, 11:05:37 AM

What has microsoft store do with bitcoin? What's so significant?
BldSwtTrs
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March 12, 2016, 11:12:11 AM

Reverse mass adoption.

Good game small blockists.
Fatman3001
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Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC


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March 12, 2016, 11:12:28 AM

For now, I am BTC long and ETH short.

The bodies of eth-tarmis are heaping up at the crypto altar.

Be safe

8up
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March 12, 2016, 11:15:05 AM

For now, I am BTC long and ETH short.

The bodies of eth-tarmis are heaping up at the crypto altar.

Be safe



Great pic. Thanks.  Wink
JayJuanGee
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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


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March 12, 2016, 11:15:45 AM


Of course, you have a right to post in response to whatever you like, and you certainly have plenty of companions in this same thread, in many other forum threads and in redit/bitcoin whining, exaggerating and spreading the same kinds of misinformation about the same topic. 


In my thinking it rises to the level of whining because it appears to be deceptive in a variety of ways.

Many of you goofballs engage in all kinds of fancy dancing in order to describe various scares about technical issues that don't really exist because when push comes to shove, you are not really concerned about technical issues (at least those who really understand the matter) but instead just want to whine, whine and whine and you want to insist on a hardfork or some other governance matter, which is really about disrupting while at the same time blaming the other side rather than attempts at resolution of potential technicalities in a reasonable and responsible manner. 

Possibly, half of you are paid shills, another 1/3 are misinformed or super emotional.  If these supposed technical matters had been presented continuously, argued and evidence set forth as a technical issue, then possibly there may have been some attempt at resolution, but based on the much illogical insistence on hard forks and other blackmailing attempts, i get the sense that technicalities continue to be exaggerated, which seems to be the case whenever looking into any details or evidence in support of technical block limit problem matters. 

Furthermore, the next move after seeing multiple flaws in the overall technical arguments, trolls like you tend to want to drag the topic into the weeds in order to distract and divert, when in the end all you seem to want is a hardfork (which gets us back to governance rather than real and concrete technical matters regarding possible problems with  the current blocksize limits).


I didn't expect you to resort to name calling after running out of arguments. I guess I overestimated you.

Goodnight.



I don't really consider my comments to you as name calling.  I believe that I am just describing the dynamic that causes me to wonder why people seem to be get so worked up in arms regarding this whole matter because it remains very deceptive in its appearance in the pushing of XT and Classic that are something other than they appear to be.

O, really?


I'm engaging in a description of what seems to be an idiotic position that you have taken in arguing for a hard fork   , and you said that's what you want.  not me.



Fatman3001
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March 12, 2016, 11:25:30 AM

I'm engaging in a description of what seems to be an idiotic position that you have taken in arguing for a hard fork   , and you said that's what you want.  not me.


                                               Ta-da!


Always a pleasure
cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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March 12, 2016, 11:27:31 AM





FTFY
ChartBuddy
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March 12, 2016, 12:00:29 PM

Coin



Explanation
Hunyadi
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March 12, 2016, 12:09:18 PM


http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/bitcoin-microsoft-account

AlexGR
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March 12, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
Last edit: March 12, 2016, 12:57:22 PM by AlexGR

AlexGR, do you allow for the possibility that maybe small blocks isn't a good idea?

Timing is crucial.

Even 1TB per year blocks (20mb/block) will have its time when 20mb/block will be "alright".

Upgrade too soon, you'll have 10gb txs and 990gb spam.

Upgrade on time, you'll get 800-950gb txs and 50-200gb spam.

I don't understand why it's spam when it pays a fee. Miners are free to exclude tx if the fee is too small.

Do you get spam in your ordinary physical mailbox? Do you think this spam is free? Isn't someone paying for the design, the paper, the kids who deliver it, etc etc?

Does this alter what it really is? It's still spam. Who cares if its paid or not.

As for miners, they will tend to follow the network guidelines, usually set by devs suggestions on default values. (However devs can't suggest higher fees due to the political climate)

Quote
I sort of like his moral approach to txs. Maybe we could introduce KYC on protocol level and purge the system for drug and CP payments as well. The latter seems even worse than spam txs.

There is no moral approach. It's just common sense to protect the system from abuse. Who told you that the system can't be attacked or abused? Certainly not Satoshi.

My reasoning goes like this: What would Satoshi do if he had to deal with a situation like this?

a) Give spammers as much space as they want - ever increasing capacity to meed their ever-increasing demands for cheap space to bloat, at near-zero costs for them, and significant costs for the network, increased centralization and problems to btc's adoption

b) Do something about it (blocksize limits / fees directly / fees as a consequence of a fee market, etc)

Well, the only thing that makes sense is B.

That's why not only bitcoin devs are going with (b) but ALSO altcoin devs that faced some kind of attack of this nature and patched their systems to protect them.

But the armchair experts all "know better", pretending spam isn't spam, and that spam growth equals growth.

Newsflash: The actual btc growth, that needs to be overlapped at the metcalfe chart with the marketcap, is not spam but legit txs - whether one has a good system to evaluate that, or by using statistics like excluding long chains (of spam).

If we can pump the marketcap by saying "see? wow, we have such a network effect" by simply spamming 10mb blocks and actually harming bitcoin in the process => then the market is broken because it is run by total idiots and bitcoin's price mechanism would be even more broken if its price was in direct relation to the spamming (rather than actual use).

Likewise, if someone says that ...1mb prevents growth because txs are hitting the limit, he's got his fundamentals waaaay wrong.

Legit growth is ongoing, despite the 1mb limit - and still way below 250-300k txs per day:

Excluding chains >100: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-chains-longer-than-100?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
Excluding chains >10: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-chains-longer-than-10?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
ChartBuddy
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March 12, 2016, 01:00:33 PM

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Fatman3001
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March 12, 2016, 01:18:27 PM

There is no moral approach.

Of course there is. You hate spam, which is understandable. But if we're going to ban everything we hate then let's accept that it isn't normatively neutral to do so. The system should be able to handle some spam, we just need to make sure it doesn't bring it to its knees. At the same time we must make sure that measures to counter spam doesn't get in the way of other users. An open distributed decentralized ledger without spam or other unsavory things is a dead ledger.

My reasoning goes like this: What would Satoshi do if he had to deal with the situation like this?

a) Give spammers as much space as they want - ever increasing capacity to meed their ever-increasing demands for cheap space to bloat, at near-zero costs for them, and significant costs for the network, increased centralization and problems to btc's adoption

b) Do something about it (blocksize limits / fees directly / fees as a consequence of a fee market, etc)


If we put aside the fact that that's an idiotic approach to an issue, it's worth noting that we don't have to imagine what Satoshi would have done.

He set the block size limit to orders of magnitude larger than the then average block size.
Tzupy
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March 12, 2016, 01:51:31 PM

We are approaching an inflection point, the next couple of hours might make the bears happy... Wink
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March 12, 2016, 01:52:59 PM

Fatman drops the mic.
ahpku
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March 12, 2016, 01:56:21 PM


Onoes! Tell me this isn't happening Shocked

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March 12, 2016, 02:00:50 PM

Coin



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mmitech
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things you own end up owning you


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March 12, 2016, 02:23:56 PM





Bullshit, I don't have Bitcoin in my account anymore, but hey! keep that denial and delusion, it will work for you.



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March 12, 2016, 03:00:31 PM

Coin



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ImI
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March 12, 2016, 03:29:45 PM



For now, I am BTC long and ETH short.

where can one find that kind of graph?
AlexGR
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March 12, 2016, 03:57:28 PM

At the same time we must make sure that measures to counter spam doesn't get in the way of other users. An open distributed decentralized ledger without spam or other unsavory things is a dead ledger.

The willingness of people to save money by doing something in a more economical way can never die .

Even at a theoretical 1$ per tx (which would need BTC to be at 8000$ - 16.000$), that 1$ in fees is quite smaller compared to bank wire fees of tens of dollars / western union fees and still cheaper than paypal payments above 20-30$ (because paypal goes with a fixed fee PLUS a 2-3% of the sale).

Even at 1$ fees it is still more profitable to use BTC than legacy systems for hundreds of transactions per second that are currently conducted and pay A LOT more. At that point you've indirectly evicted cheap spam (no "banning") AND you are also useful to everyday people who are saving money thanks to BTC.

He set the block size limit to orders of magnitude larger than the then average block size.

He just gave attackers 1mb room to play with. To make extrapolations of use in 2010 compared to max block size (and perhaps imply that we should make like 50-100x larger blocks than what we need) is ...well.
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