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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
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$130K - 17 (15.7%)
$140K - 9 (8.3%)
$150K - 19 (17.6%)
$160K - 2 (1.9%)
$170K+ - 33 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26966271 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
ChartBuddy
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March 12, 2016, 12:00:29 PM

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March 12, 2016, 12:09:18 PM


http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/bitcoin-microsoft-account

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March 12, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
Last edit: March 12, 2016, 12:57:22 PM by AlexGR

AlexGR, do you allow for the possibility that maybe small blocks isn't a good idea?

Timing is crucial.

Even 1TB per year blocks (20mb/block) will have its time when 20mb/block will be "alright".

Upgrade too soon, you'll have 10gb txs and 990gb spam.

Upgrade on time, you'll get 800-950gb txs and 50-200gb spam.

I don't understand why it's spam when it pays a fee. Miners are free to exclude tx if the fee is too small.

Do you get spam in your ordinary physical mailbox? Do you think this spam is free? Isn't someone paying for the design, the paper, the kids who deliver it, etc etc?

Does this alter what it really is? It's still spam. Who cares if its paid or not.

As for miners, they will tend to follow the network guidelines, usually set by devs suggestions on default values. (However devs can't suggest higher fees due to the political climate)

Quote
I sort of like his moral approach to txs. Maybe we could introduce KYC on protocol level and purge the system for drug and CP payments as well. The latter seems even worse than spam txs.

There is no moral approach. It's just common sense to protect the system from abuse. Who told you that the system can't be attacked or abused? Certainly not Satoshi.

My reasoning goes like this: What would Satoshi do if he had to deal with a situation like this?

a) Give spammers as much space as they want - ever increasing capacity to meed their ever-increasing demands for cheap space to bloat, at near-zero costs for them, and significant costs for the network, increased centralization and problems to btc's adoption

b) Do something about it (blocksize limits / fees directly / fees as a consequence of a fee market, etc)

Well, the only thing that makes sense is B.

That's why not only bitcoin devs are going with (b) but ALSO altcoin devs that faced some kind of attack of this nature and patched their systems to protect them.

But the armchair experts all "know better", pretending spam isn't spam, and that spam growth equals growth.

Newsflash: The actual btc growth, that needs to be overlapped at the metcalfe chart with the marketcap, is not spam but legit txs - whether one has a good system to evaluate that, or by using statistics like excluding long chains (of spam).

If we can pump the marketcap by saying "see? wow, we have such a network effect" by simply spamming 10mb blocks and actually harming bitcoin in the process => then the market is broken because it is run by total idiots and bitcoin's price mechanism would be even more broken if its price was in direct relation to the spamming (rather than actual use).

Likewise, if someone says that ...1mb prevents growth because txs are hitting the limit, he's got his fundamentals waaaay wrong.

Legit growth is ongoing, despite the 1mb limit - and still way below 250-300k txs per day:

Excluding chains >100: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-chains-longer-than-100?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
Excluding chains >10: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-chains-longer-than-10?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
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March 12, 2016, 01:00:33 PM

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Fatman3001
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March 12, 2016, 01:18:27 PM

There is no moral approach.

Of course there is. You hate spam, which is understandable. But if we're going to ban everything we hate then let's accept that it isn't normatively neutral to do so. The system should be able to handle some spam, we just need to make sure it doesn't bring it to its knees. At the same time we must make sure that measures to counter spam doesn't get in the way of other users. An open distributed decentralized ledger without spam or other unsavory things is a dead ledger.

My reasoning goes like this: What would Satoshi do if he had to deal with the situation like this?

a) Give spammers as much space as they want - ever increasing capacity to meed their ever-increasing demands for cheap space to bloat, at near-zero costs for them, and significant costs for the network, increased centralization and problems to btc's adoption

b) Do something about it (blocksize limits / fees directly / fees as a consequence of a fee market, etc)


If we put aside the fact that that's an idiotic approach to an issue, it's worth noting that we don't have to imagine what Satoshi would have done.

He set the block size limit to orders of magnitude larger than the then average block size.
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March 12, 2016, 01:51:31 PM

We are approaching an inflection point, the next couple of hours might make the bears happy... Wink
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March 12, 2016, 01:52:59 PM

Fatman drops the mic.
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March 12, 2016, 01:56:21 PM


Onoes! Tell me this isn't happening Shocked

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March 12, 2016, 02:00:50 PM

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March 12, 2016, 02:23:56 PM





Bullshit, I don't have Bitcoin in my account anymore, but hey! keep that denial and delusion, it will work for you.



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March 12, 2016, 03:00:31 PM

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March 12, 2016, 03:29:45 PM



For now, I am BTC long and ETH short.

where can one find that kind of graph?
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March 12, 2016, 03:57:28 PM

At the same time we must make sure that measures to counter spam doesn't get in the way of other users. An open distributed decentralized ledger without spam or other unsavory things is a dead ledger.

The willingness of people to save money by doing something in a more economical way can never die .

Even at a theoretical 1$ per tx (which would need BTC to be at 8000$ - 16.000$), that 1$ in fees is quite smaller compared to bank wire fees of tens of dollars / western union fees and still cheaper than paypal payments above 20-30$ (because paypal goes with a fixed fee PLUS a 2-3% of the sale).

Even at 1$ fees it is still more profitable to use BTC than legacy systems for hundreds of transactions per second that are currently conducted and pay A LOT more. At that point you've indirectly evicted cheap spam (no "banning") AND you are also useful to everyday people who are saving money thanks to BTC.

He set the block size limit to orders of magnitude larger than the then average block size.

He just gave attackers 1mb room to play with. To make extrapolations of use in 2010 compared to max block size (and perhaps imply that we should make like 50-100x larger blocks than what we need) is ...well.
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#Free market


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March 12, 2016, 04:04:38 PM






https://twitter.com/bitcoin_comics/status/708544270966267904
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March 12, 2016, 04:06:49 PM
Last edit: March 12, 2016, 04:22:29 PM by blacky90

 still worth to invest in eth Huh
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March 12, 2016, 04:13:48 PM



For now, I am BTC long and ETH short.

where can one find that kind of graph?

https://cryptolization.com/
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March 12, 2016, 04:14:50 PM


thx
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March 12, 2016, 04:17:48 PM


https://coin.dance/nodes
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March 12, 2016, 04:18:10 PM


The willingness of people to save money by doing something in a more economical way can never die .
True, but you can try to stop them from trying to find certain types of more economical methods by using a position of power to dictate what terms the market must operate under.
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March 12, 2016, 04:30:33 PM


The willingness of people to save money by doing something in a more economical way can never die .
True, but you can try to stop them from trying to find certain types of more economical methods by using a position of power to dictate what terms the market must operate under.

IT services cost, which are related to IT capabilities, will tend to follow IT capabilities cost.

This means that the IT market (hardware, network etc) dictates, in large, the cost as capabilities cap the max amount of tx/s in a given setup (p2p / decentralized).

In 1995, what we do right now at 3tx/s, with a p2p network that anyone can run on their home PC, would be impossible. Bitcoin would be considered a fancy idea that can't work due to extreme resource requirements. There were no 100gb home disks. There was no 4gb ram to run. There was no 8-threaded cpu, running at 4ghz.

If you take the opposite time direction, in 2035 the cost of running at 3000tx/s or 10.000 tx/s may be the same as it is to run today the 3tx/s network.

More technological capacity => more network capacity => cheaper txs due to better and more affordable technological means.
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