Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[GBattaglia]

Is it really severely undervalued? Look at my post above with the transaction bandwidth edit. How is Bitcoin severely undervalued without diving into speculative growth? Bitcoin's primary draw is as an investment tool for speculation. How many of you here regularly use Bitcoin as a currency to buy and sell goods for?

Bitcoin isn't just a currency, and that's the whole point of it. If you think that this is all there is to it, then you don't truly understand where the underlying value stems from. How many people regularly use Gold in a similar fashion?

Bitcoin's intent was to be a digital form of cash. It is both a currency and a means of payment processing. This was pointed out right in the whitepaper. Even if Bitcoin now fills a different space, its outward intention was to function as both a currency and payment processor.

Now don't get me wrong, Bitcoin can scale [not to the level of Visa I don't think], but it is highly likely it will not in any substantial way. If a dynamic block size is implemented along with blockchain pruning then we could see many times more transactions processed per second, but just a basic increase [not even looking at pruning] has not made any meaningful progress towards consensus. And even if the network could handle it, how many of you actually use Bitcoin to buy and purchase goods and why not just use any other payment processing network?

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[600watt]

fun fact:

all major exchanges listed on bitcoinwisdom show rarely seen close price levels. also € and russian ruble are within the same narrow range (current rates)  

Bitstamp 1002.8
BTC-e 994.432
Bitfinex 999
OKCoin 995.71/6847.9
Ruble 1008.0 (btce)
€  1007.7(kraken)


those are almost within 1% range.  i cannot recall seeing them within such a thin range.

edit: almost


editII: its coiling up. breakout within few hours. 

[European Central Bank]

And even if the network could handle it, how many of you actually use Bitcoin to buy and purchase goods and why not just use any other payment processing network?

i spend it relatively often but certainly less since fees went through the roof. after a price rise a lot of people will be inclined to spend some free cash but i guess that isn't really what it was originally intended for i'm sure. there's absolutely no reason for a non bitcoin user to obtain it to spend unless it's for something like a vpn or drugs.

[JimboToronto]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

The battle for a grand continues... exactly $1000USD (Bitcoinaverage).

My guess is sideways a while longer before continuing up.

OK is now at par with Stamp and Finex. This is a good thing.

Bitcoin isn't just a currency, and that's the whole point of it. If you think that this is all there is to it, then you don't truly understand where the underlying value stems from. How many people regularly use Gold in a similar fashion?

Exactly. Bitcoin has many uses.

What I see IRL is people, many of visible minorities, lined up to buy modest amounts of Bitcoins at local BTC ATMs.

Toronto is a city of many immigrants. I assume many of them are sending coins to family back home. It's the fastest and cheapest way to sent money abroad.

For me, it's a retirement savings plan with excellent growth. For others it's hedge against fiat devaluation.

Yes, it can also be used to purchase goods and services and to make donations, but that is still limited.

Hopefully that will expand.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

how about australia stock exchange daily trading volume as comparison in term of $

Can you explain your point about the australia stock exchange?  Are you trying to say that bitcoin has more trade volume?  and what is the point about that, if any?

[JayJuanGee]

Is it really severely undervalued? Look at my post above with the transaction bandwidth edit. How is Bitcoin severely undervalued without diving into speculative growth? Bitcoin's primary draw is as an investment tool for speculation. How many of you here regularly use Bitcoin as a currency to buy and sell goods for?

Bitcoin isn't just a currency, and that's the whole point of it. If you think that this is all there is to it, then you don't truly understand where the underlying value stems from. How many people regularly use Gold in a similar fashion?

Bitcoin's intent was to be a digital form of cash. It is both a currency and a means of payment processing. This was pointed out right in the whitepaper. Even if Bitcoin now fills a different space, its outward intention was to function as both a currency and payment processor.

Now don't get me wrong, Bitcoin can scale [not to the level of Visa I don't think], but it is highly likely it will not in any substantial way. If a dynamic block size is implemented along with blockchain pruning then we could see many times more transactions processed per second, but just a basic increase [not even looking at pruning] has not made any meaningful progress towards consensus. And even if the network could handle it, how many of you actually use Bitcoin to buy and purchase goods and why not just use any other payment processing network?

GBattaglia.   You seem to be purposefully attempting to create a strawman argument with your emphasis on payment systems (which is only one part of bitcoin).  

[jbreher]

lol, bitcoin has to 560fold for them to catch up. hm... long shot.  

If bitcoin market cap were to equal that of gold's (today), that would be about the price.

#justsayin

[Torque]

Three years ago, Bitcoin stabilizing around the $1K mark seemed like a dream.

Now look at it.

Where could we be three years from now??

Onward and upward to $5K!  

[V1saya]

Three years ago, Bitcoin stabilizing around the $1K mark seemed like a dream.

Now look at it.

Where could we be three years from now??

Onward and upward to $5K!  

Lol. I like this. Now $5k is only a dream. But I do heard dreams sometimes do happen. 

[sirazimuth]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

The battle for a grand continues... exactly $1000USD (Bitcoinaverage).

My guess is sideways a while longer before continuing up.

OK is now at par with Stamp and Finex. This is a good thing.

Bitcoin isn't just a currency, and that's the whole point of it. If you think that this is all there is to it, then you don't truly understand where the underlying value stems from. How many people regularly use Gold in a similar fashion?

Exactly. Bitcoin has many uses.

What I see IRL is people, many of visible minorities, lined up to buy modest amounts of Bitcoins at local BTC ATMs.

Toronto is a city of many immigrants. I assume many of them are sending coins to family back home. It's the fastest and cheapest way to sent money abroad.

For me, it's a retirement savings plan with excellent growth. For others it's hedge against fiat devaluation.

Yes, it can also be used to purchase goods and services and to make donations, but that is still limited.

Hopefully that will expand.

When attempting to educate eye rolling skeptics who question bitcoins viability, the 1st attribute I would describe to them
is cost and relative speed of of sending funds securely anywhere in world.
When compared to bank wire transfers its a no brainer.
But as for the ease of said transactions?...maybe not so much, in that sender and receiver must obviously have appropriate
supporting software and accounts and more importantly "pc literacy"... which unfortunately to my mind, likely rules out 99% of
population... but we the crypto community are diligently working on it!

[jackjack]

Three years ago, Bitcoin stabilizing around the $1K mark seemed like a dream.

Now look at it.

Where could we be three years from now??

Onward and upward to $5K!  

With that kind of logic, Bitcoin will go to infinity

[jbreher]

https://coin-etf.com

...

...

So is that the official site to purchase etf on or is it just an information site about it?

Probably the latter. If the ETF is approved, I would expect the official websites for purchase to be:
schwab.com
fidelity.com
vanguard.com
etrade.com
scotttrade.com
...
etc.

Which, of course, is why ETF approval would likely be bullish.

[swogerino]

https://coin-etf.com

...

...

So is that the official site to purchase etf on or is it just an information site about it?

Probably the latter. If the ETF is approved, I would expect the official websites for purchase to be:
schwab.com
fidelity.com
vanguard.com
etrade.com
scotttrade.com
...
etc.

Which, of course, is why ETF approval would likely be bullish.

It being bullish is not in question here.
That is the point of it. To downcast any kind of market manipulation from going on.
It is a security as most have defined it as in recent threads.

[swogerino]

lol, bitcoin has to 560fold for them to catch up. hm... long shot.  

If bitcoin market cap were to equal that of gold's (today), that would be about the price.

#justsayin

But gold can not be manipulated so easily in the market as bitcoin can and is being done currently.
Until it can get a good backing like gold has in the federal reserves it will never be even close as stable as the gold prices are changing in the form of $2-20~ a per day.

[European Central Bank]

But gold can not be manipulated so easily in the market as bitcoin can and is being done currently.
Until it can get a good backing like gold has in the federal reserves it will never be even close as stable as the gold prices are changing in the form of $2-20~ a per day.

i was kind of under the impression that gold is one of the world's most rigged markets. even if it isn't formally manipulated, the paper gold factor destroys price credibility.

[gembitz]

Three years ago, Bitcoin stabilizing around the $1K mark seemed like a dream.

Now look at it.

Where could we be three years from now??

Onward and upward to $5K!  

With that kind of logic, Bitcoin will go to infinity

$200,000 fair value per bitcoin :-D *hodl & watch!*

[GBattaglia]

Is it really severely undervalued? Look at my post above with the transaction bandwidth edit. How is Bitcoin severely undervalued without diving into speculative growth? Bitcoin's primary draw is as an investment tool for speculation. How many of you here regularly use Bitcoin as a currency to buy and sell goods for?

Bitcoin isn't just a currency, and that's the whole point of it. If you think that this is all there is to it, then you don't truly understand where the underlying value stems from. How many people regularly use Gold in a similar fashion?

Bitcoin's intent was to be a digital form of cash. It is both a currency and a means of payment processing. This was pointed out right in the whitepaper. Even if Bitcoin now fills a different space, its outward intention was to function as both a currency and payment processor.

Now don't get me wrong, Bitcoin can scale [not to the level of Visa I don't think], but it is highly likely it will not in any substantial way. If a dynamic block size is implemented along with blockchain pruning then we could see many times more transactions processed per second, but just a basic increase [not even looking at pruning] has not made any meaningful progress towards consensus. And even if the network could handle it, how many of you actually use Bitcoin to buy and purchase goods and why not just use any other payment processing network?

GBattaglia.   You seem to be purposefully attempting to create a strawman argument with your emphasis on payment systems (which is only one part of bitcoin).  

I will admit I am playing devils advocate to some extent, but that is due to some of my disillusionment with how Bitcoin has evolved over the past 4+ years I've followed it. I believe most people would have very little interest in Bitcoin if its price remained stable or if it just increased in value slowly [will say 10% year, which is still pretty fast but about the value gold has risen over the past 15 years]. Most people's interest in Bitcoin itself is as a speculative tool it seems. And that part of Bitcoin I'm focusing on does seem like what Satoshi intended to be the primary draw of Bitcoin in his whitepaper; digital cash.

[JayJuanGee]

Is it really severely undervalued? Look at my post above with the transaction bandwidth edit. How is Bitcoin severely undervalued without diving into speculative growth? Bitcoin's primary draw is as an investment tool for speculation. How many of you here regularly use Bitcoin as a currency to buy and sell goods for?

Bitcoin isn't just a currency, and that's the whole point of it. If you think that this is all there is to it, then you don't truly understand where the underlying value stems from. How many people regularly use Gold in a similar fashion?

Bitcoin's intent was to be a digital form of cash. It is both a currency and a means of payment processing. This was pointed out right in the whitepaper. Even if Bitcoin now fills a different space, its outward intention was to function as both a currency and payment processor.

Now don't get me wrong, Bitcoin can scale [not to the level of Visa I don't think], but it is highly likely it will not in any substantial way. If a dynamic block size is implemented along with blockchain pruning then we could see many times more transactions processed per second, but just a basic increase [not even looking at pruning] has not made any meaningful progress towards consensus. And even if the network could handle it, how many of you actually use Bitcoin to buy and purchase goods and why not just use any other payment processing network?

GBattaglia.   You seem to be purposefully attempting to create a strawman argument with your emphasis on payment systems (which is only one part of bitcoin).  

I will admit I am playing devils advocate to some extent, but that is due to some of my disillusionment with how Bitcoin has evolved over the past 4+ years I've followed it. I believe most people would have very little interest in Bitcoin if its price remained stable or if it just increased in value slowly [will say 10% year, which is still pretty fast but about the value gold has risen over the past 15 years]. Most people's interest in Bitcoin itself is as a speculative tool it seems. And that part of Bitcoin I'm focusing on does seem like what Satoshi intended to be the primary draw of Bitcoin in his whitepaper; digital cash.

In other words, at the risk of repeating what others in this line of conversation already suggested, you are admitting that you are not really engaging in a genuine conversation in order to suss out the value of bitcoin.  You are parcing out some choice aspect and then focusing on that choice aspect and attempting to suggest that is the whole of value of bitcoin.

Let me play along for a short-period, though.  Yeah, there are a variety of lame arguers who want to suggest that bitcoin is ineffective because it cannot compete against various centralized credit card services or other centralized payment processors. 

So fucking what?  Since bitcoin is decentralized, it has to go through various hoops to prove is secure before it can start to attempt to achieve mass adoption or mass processing.  It makes no fucking sense that bitcoin should go from zero to 1,000 without making sure that it is secure first.  Yeah, no road map was outlined by Satoshi regarding how to get to a "peer to peer cashless payment system", but you know what, when you look at the situation, it makes sense to make sure that the peer to peer and the security is powerful and robust.. before the payment system becomes either mass adopted or on a similar level to some centralized system. 

On the other hand, bitcoin remains amazing because it is accomplishing a lot in terms of bolstering the various aspects of the peer to peer and the secure in order to make the payment system to become more robust when it actually does evolve to a higher mass adoption level.   On the other hand (am I running out of hands, yet?), bitcoin already serves as secure payment system that just is not at the mass adoption level, yet so there is considerable value in the system "as is" even if it evolves no further.

Regarding processing payments through fiat and credit and other traditional system, yes we can do both, and we need not use bitcoin on that level - especially if we have the option to use the other system, as well... but still does not mean that bitcoin is not bringing something to the table, even though there exist several systems that are options to a lot of people.   Conversely, if some people do not have access to some of those other payment and credit systems, then there is likely a place for bitcoin for those under banked folks... right now that is available to those people, even if they have not learned about it yet.   

[bitcoinvest]

img host
Well going down today from ~956€ to ~943€ it's normal but looking the orders in the graph looks like the selling bigger and is going to be bring more down the price...
of course tomorrow is Monday and money can go again to exchanges

[yefi]

Bitcoin's intent was to be a digital form of cash. It is both a currency and a means of payment processing. This was pointed out right in the whitepaper. Even if Bitcoin now fills a different space, its outward intention was to function as both a currency and payment processor.

Now don't get me wrong, Bitcoin can scale [not to the level of Visa I don't think], but it is highly likely it will not in any substantial way. If a dynamic block size is implemented along with blockchain pruning then we could see many times more transactions processed per second, but just a basic increase [not even looking at pruning] has not made any meaningful progress towards consensus. And even if the network could handle it, how many of you actually use Bitcoin to buy and purchase goods and why not just use any other payment processing network?

Bitcoin is not about high throughput, it is about security and trust-minimisation. This is what gives it value over traditional systems, and why we sacrifice computational and energy efficiency. Throughput should be left to peripheral networks, that use Bitcoin as the settlement layer. The lower fees, faster transactions, and still-better-than-VISA security should increase Bitcoin's appeal in payment cases where it is presently disfavoured.