Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[traincarswreck]

 It's either fungible or it's not, and it's not actually possible for cryptocurrency to be fungible.

It matters not that its not fungible.  It's clearly functioning today as a currency and a money by the accepted definitions of the words. The rest of your sentences were just attacks and fluff with no real meaning.  I think you are stuck in fight mode because bitcoin threatens your model of how things work. How can you see it as a rational use of your time to argue on a forum versus a project you don't agree has value? 

You are inconsistent with your own being wasting time by your own definition and views.

[r0ach]

When you talk about bitcoin and use words like "belief system" it's outrageous.

I guarantee you that the first 10, 100, 1000, even 10,000 humans on this earth had to "believe" that Gold or Silver had some sort of value to begin using it as a form of money, as a barter system.

It started with the first 10.

Purely. On. 100%. Belief. And. That. Is. All.

Buttalik Butterin might be an IPO scammer, but he's not a stupid IPO scammer.  There's a reason he said when he first heard of bitcoin he didn't think it would have any value and is still skeptical of the long term viability of any of them.  The fact that he's selling you tokens he thinks might be worthless is a whole other story.  

Anyway, if you look around, you will notice the people who know the most about bitcoin are the most skeptical and wouldn't be surprised if it died, while it's generally people who don't know anything about economics or what a UTXO is either that think it's guaranteed to go to $1 million each.  The exception are motivational speakers like Antonopolous who are probably getting paid by god knows who to go out and shill for bitcoin.

[traincarswreck]

while it's generally people who don't know anything about economics

Sir you've twisted an conflated definitions of currency and money and you've touted gold as superior to bitcoin when this is observably untrue as we can see with the charts.  You've demonstrated you not only do not understand the subject and related subjects but that you are willing to obfuscate your points and continue to argue from an irrational standpoint.  

You don't understand (macro-)economics and you've incorrectly identified me as a Keynesian further showing that you are lost.

You've also implied gold is scarce and its not.

[Torque]

...that think it's guaranteed to go to $1 million each.

I think if Bitcoin lives on another 10-15 years it'll definitely go to $1M/each. Because of hyperinflation of the dollar, lol.

[traincarswreck]

I think if Bitcoin lives on another 10-15 years it'll definitely go to $1M/each. Because of hyperinflation of the dollar, lol.

You also don't understand economics.  Central banks allows banks to tend to the quality of their money:

Also, a substantial decrease in the use of dollars would also tend to reduce the size of the Fed’s balance sheet and introduce another factor into its consideration of how to affect short-term interest rates (the instrument for implementing monetary policy).

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43339.pdf

hyperbitcoinization or that bitcoin will usurp central banking is silly and born from ignorance (the whole nakamoto institute site suffers from this).

Banks can increase the quality of their money and will do so in relation to bitcoin now that they are forced to compete with it on the markets.  As I said, bitcoin will cause the other fiats to shore up their instability.  This is the obvious natural result and is as described by John Nash who built the entire argument.

[r0ach]

you've touted gold as superior to bitcoin when this is observably untrue as we can see with the charts.

You can stop shilling now, Trace Mayer.  Bitcoin has not yet pump and dumped higher than the combined gold + silver monetary metals market cap, nor does it have the ability to do so.  You already admitted bitcoin is a crap store of value, so if someone believed the market cap of both metals and bitcoin had topped out, they would immediately liquidate bitcoin for metals anyway.  Once you accept this obvious conclusion as fact, it's clear that bitcoin is solely a pump and dump in nature, as are most monetary instruments or substitutes that don't make up the base of Exter's pyramid.

[traincarswreck]

 You already admitted bitcoin is a crap store of value

You have said this lie twice now.  Gold's value is tanking and bitcoin's value is increasing on the USD at a dramatic rate.  You are denying reality and your denial is so bad you are pushing your denial on others in a forum in which you clearly don't have any business on.  You aren't here looking for truth at all.  You are here to justify your own view which has you perturbed because it is in conflict with observable reality.

You are acting inconsistently with your own views. By definition, irrational.

[Torque]

I think if Bitcoin lives on another 10-15 years it'll definitely go to $1M/each. Because of hyperinflation of the dollar, lol.

You also don't understand economics.  Central banks allows banks to tend to the quality of their money:

Also, a substantial decrease in the use of dollars would also tend to reduce the size of the Fed’s balance sheet and introduce another factor into its consideration of how to affect short-term interest rates (the instrument for implementing monetary policy).

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43339.pdf

I'm not sure where you're are trying to go with this.

But the quality of my U.S. dollars has lost some purchasing power over the last 4 years, while the "quality" of the purchasing power of my Bitcoin has gained 5X.

Are you sure that you understand economics?

[r0ach]

You aren't here looking for truth at all.  

Let me guess, your net "truth" is to try and convince me India has the best schools in the world again.

[traincarswreck]

I'm not sure where you're are trying to go with this.

But the quality of my U.S. dollars has lost some purchasing power over the last 4 years, while the "quality" of the purchasing power of my Bitcoin has gained 5X.

Are you sure that you understand economics?

Yes and I quoted a research report based on your fed that explains that as bitcoin grows in relevance it will force the fed to adjust its monetary policy in relation to it.  Your conclusion doesn't acknowledge this FACT. 

 

Are you sure that you understand economics?

Dude, you CLEARLY showed you don't fucking know what you are talking about.  What is this?

[traincarswreck]

Let me guess, your net "truth" is to try and convince me India has the best schools in the world again.

My argument has many citations and links to to empirical evidence.  I use standard accepted definitions and principles.

Your argument twists the definitions of words, flies counter to accepted economic principles, and denies observable evidence to the contrary.

And now you are changing the subject to school in india.

As I said you are interested in defending your view only in order to justify your core beliefs.  That bitcoin threatened them causes you to participate on a forum that you have no intention of getting anything from or contributing to. 

You aren't interested in what is the truth, you are interested in perpetuating and justifying your misunderstanding.

[Torque]

Yes and I quoted a research report based on your fed that explains that as bitcoin grows in relevance it will force the fed to adjust its monetary policy in relation to it.  Your conclusion doesn't acknowledge this FACT.  

You are completely delusional if you think that the Fed is going to adjust their monetary policy at all to improve the "quality" of their money, much less to "compete" with Bitcoin. They don't give two shits about Bitcoin. After another worldwide financial crisis, they will slam interest rates back to zero and fire up QE4. If that doesn't stop banks imploding around the world, they will send interest rates negative and print dollars into oblivion. They will even airdrop helicopter money directly into people's bank accounts if they have to.

Dude, you CLEARLY showed you don't fucking know what you are talking about.  What is this?

See my response above.

[infofront]

I'm not sure where you're are trying to go with this.

But the quality of my U.S. dollars has lost some purchasing power over the last 4 years, while the "quality" of the purchasing power of my Bitcoin has gained 5X.

Are you sure that you understand economics?

Yes and I quoted a research report based on your fed that explains that as bitcoin grows in relevance it will force the fed to adjust its monetary policy in relation to it.  Your conclusion doesn't acknowledge this FACT. 

 

Are you sure that you understand economics?

Dude, you CLEARLY showed you don't fucking know what you are talking about.  What is this?

So, you're saying that it's a "fact" that the fed will cause massive USD deflation, so that it can keep up with bitcoin?

[r0ach]

What is this?

[traincarswreck]

I quoted the research study that explains exactly what I say.  You forget the fed can choose its policy.  If it starts to lose ground and the velocity of the usd increases and puts pressure on the relevance of the usd, rational self interest will cause it to shore up the difference.

This is the logical and natural response from a self interested actor.

You are completely delusional if you think that the Fed is going to adjust their monetary policy at all to improve the "quality" of their money, much less to "compete" with Bitcoin. They don't give two shits about Bitcoin. After another worldwide financial crisis, they will slam interest rates back to zero and fire up QE4. If that doesn't stop banks imploding around the world, they will send interest rates negative and print dollars into oblivion. They will even airdrop helicopter money directly into people's bank accounts if they have to.

No this is not the rational viewpoint, you are speaking of a world in which the citizens don't have an alternative option for hedging.

In the near future there may be a smaller number of major currencies used in the world and these may stand in competitive relations among themselves. There is now the “euro” and the old inflationary history of the Italian lira is past history now. And there COULD be introduced, for example, a similar international currency for the Islamic world or for South Asia, or for South America, or here or there.

So here is the possibility of “asymptotically ideal money”. Starting with the idea of value stabilization in relation to a domestic price index associated with the territory of one state, beyond that there is the natural and logical concept of internationally based value comparisons. The currencies being compared, like now the euro, the dollar, the yen, the pound, the swiss franc, the swedish kronor, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their users and by those who may have the option of whether or not or how to use one of them. This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of inflationary depreciation in value.

And this parallel makes it seem not implausible that a process of political evolution might lead to the expectation on the part of citizens in the “great democracies” that they should be better situated to be able to understand whatever will be the monetary policies which, indeed, are typically of great importance to citizens who may have alternative options for where to place their “savings”.

[traincarswreck]

So, you're saying that it's a "fact" that the fed will cause massive USD deflation, so that it can keep up with bitcoin?

its not massive deflation though is it?  It's only massive if you are assuming bitcoin will go to the moon, but in relation to the USD this is silly.  And I stated it as CITED fact as I have given a link to the entire supporting research paper.  It's accepted economic philosophy and theory that such banks will adjust if forced to compete with a superior option.

[traincarswreck]

Sir are you expecting us to take your seriously? You've run out of counterpoints and logic. And resorted to obfuscation and name calling some time ago.

[bones261]

Whatever  

For me, if I want to be safe, I go for precious metals. Since the neolithic, it's held its value fairly well. A person 10,000 years ago can get about the same amount of goods and services as they can today. Yes, its value fluctuates in the short term, but in the long term, it will probably be one of the safest investments that I can possibly make. (And a little boring to be quite frank.)
If I want to go for risky, with high volatility and excitement, I go for Bitcoin/cryptocurrency. I've had almost 3 years worth of entertainment and have even seen my small "investment" increase 10 fold. This has been way more enjoyable, affordable and educational for me than my years of trying to perfect my card counting "system." Wish this was around in the 90's and early 2000s.
Enjoy life. It never has to be boring.

[metacoin]

Cryptocurrency is NOT fungible.  If anything about the protocol at all can be altered via a strongman or banana republic voting to take over it's exposed power vacuum it's not fungible.

Money = has objective, static traits

Currency = random arbitrary bullshit some guy makes up and constantly fiddles with like fiat or bitcoin. If it's possible for your money to "hard fork", or randomly morph from one thing to another, it's not fungible, and hence not money.

It doesn't matter if said forks are orchestrated by a banana republic of miners in a voting process. There is no Nash equilibrium in cryptocurrency, only a power vacuum to be filled by a top down hierarchy or strongman. To escape this master and servant hierarchy you have to use real money that cannot be altered or tampered with by third parties.

I think this argument is akin to "a government could nuke its own population to maintain control". Sure, you can rule over a barren wasteland of radioactive decay, but that kind of defeats the purpose of running a government in the first place.

The internet has become such an integral part of life that any draconian control over it would be a step backwards for the society that lives under that regime. At that point they would probably be confiscating gold as well.

[savetherainforest]

You aren't here looking for truth at all.  

Let me guess, your net "truth" is to try and convince me India has the best schools in the world again.

India intensifies!!! .. You people are just gr8!! .. I come here every day, and I sometimes find the most magnificent gems that I can laugh my ass off. You peeps have the train of thought of fairy / pixie dust hodlers!