Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[KS]

So... this also means that the walls are bigger than they look?

As in, if the charts say a wall has 1k BTC, and USD was say 50% of the total Gox volume, then the actual wall size is 2k BTC?

No. A 2k฿ order appears as 2k฿ in every market. It just might *look* smaller or bigger because of different zoom factor and the other orders surrounding it when looking at the different charts. Just look at the naked numbers of BTC order size, the orders are identical everywhere.

+1 on the book orders.

The graphs are not perfect, so look for the raw data. You don't really need the graphs...

[ChartBuddy]

[ChartBuddy]

[nmersulypnem]

Wallzilla killed the volume.

I'm really curious as to why there's a wall in many currencies.

Gox has only one market for all currencies.  The bids/asks in any given currency are converted to show in all other currencies, with a exchange fee built in.  The fee does not go to Gox, since they ironically are not licensed to exchange between various fiat currencies. Instead the fee goes to their bank, which does the actual fiat exchange.

The upshot is that if you place a bid in USD it shows up in Pounds, Euros, Baht, whatever else as well.

Source: MagicalTux in irc a few weeks ago.

That's how it works. It's in their FAQ, BTW

That´s not right.
Every currency has its own market on Gox.
Look at the Canadian Dollar chart or at the polish Zloty at Gox and compare it with the USD,GBP or EUR chart.
Every market has another volume.

Think before you type.

First, Bitcycle told you he is quoting Karpeles from IRC, so you should give him some credit.

Secondly, I'm telling you to check it in Gox's FAQ

Thirdly, and most important, look at the different currencies at Gox. You will see that if there was independent ask/bids for every currency, there would be no liquidity in any market except the USD. Then, check the walls. Isn't it strange for you that you have walls of the same proportion in every currency?

And finally, check MtGox's FAQ:

Q. Do you keep independent ask/bid tables for different currencies?

A. No, ask/bid tables for different currencies are not independent. All currencies are relative to whichever currency has the highest volume, which is based on said currencies current market price in bitcoin. Every trade is in one pool and in fact, not are not separate currency markets. This allows users the added benefit of trading in "the greater market" -in currencies they understand- while not limiting them to smaller currency markets.

For example, if a buy order for bitcoins is placed in EUR, the order can be executed against another user selling bitcoins in any currency and not necessarily only against another user selling bitcoins in EUR.

EDIT: well, niothor was quicker than me

Well both of you are right.
I have just compared the markets on bitcoinity.
I´ve read it on the FAQ too.
Thanks.

It looks like the bids/asks are replicated on the other order books, but the transaction data is separate.  i.e. There is effectively one order book for trading, but the volumes/transaction history are kept separate.  For example, USD/CAD are almost 1:1 in the real world, but it's clear on the volume history that they aren't matching.

[Ivanhoe]

So... where are the bears? Where is the weekend dip? I need someone to dump 27,8k btc so my buy order at $120 gets filled 

9482 BTC dump is enough for my order to be completly filled

[dexX7]

Digital currency firms rush to adopt anti-money laundering rules

(Reuters) - These are unsettling times for digital currency businesses and the venture capitalists backing them.

On Tuesday, authorities in Spain, Costa Rica and New York arrested five people at the digital currency firm Liberty Reserve, including its founder Arthur Budovsky, and seized related bank accounts and Internet domains.

It was a further wake-up call for those involved in digital currencies, such as the most prominent, Bitcoin, that they need to comply with anti-money laundering rules or risk facing a crackdown.

They had already been put on notice - first by an April 2012 report from the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation that explained how Bitcoin was being used by criminals to secretly transfer money around the world, and then this March by the U.S. Treasury Department. Its anti-money laundering arm, the Financial Crimes and Enforcement Network (FinCEN) stated that digital currency firms needed to comply with the same anti-money laundering rules as other financial institutions, including monitoring customers and reporting suspicious activity to the government.

As regulators tighten the screws, businesses built around digital currencies are trying to satisfy new monitoring requirements without letting public enthusiasm for the technology-based concept slip away.

"I think the whole ecosystem is maturing very quickly and we have young companies that are just beginning to understand how to navigate the regulatory issues," said David A. Johnston, co-founder and executive director of BitAngels, a new venture which only this week announced it had raised $6.7 million to fund startups tied to Bitcoin.

Digital currency is electronic money that can be passed between individuals without the use of the traditional banking or money transfer system.

Different currencies are structured in different ways. Some, like Liberty Reserve's "LR" digital currency, use units of value that are tied to an existing hard currency, such as the U.S. dollar. By contrast, the value of Bitcoin, the best known virtual currency, fluctuates according to supply and demand.

Bitcoin, which has been embraced by a number of venture capitalists in Silicon Valley, exists through an open-source software program that any users with enough skill and computing power can access. It is not managed by a single company or government. Users can buy bitcoins through exchanges that convert real money into the virtual currency.

Liberty Reserve, which was closed last week, however, was a firm that U.S. prosecutors said created a platform that enabled criminal gangs to launder more than $6 billion.

Bitcoin's supporters cite a host of legitimate reasons for using a digital currency: It can be transferred using less infrastructure than traditional currencies, and with fewer service fees. A virtual currency could also be safer than using a regular credit card for online purchases, because it is not attached directly to any bank account.

But law enforcement officials see Bitcoin as another vehicle for criminals to anonymously transfer money.

FinCEN's statement in March set off a rush inside the community to learn about anti-money laundering rules and figure out how to comply with them. At the 2013 Bitcoin Conference in San Jose, California two weeks ago, discussion focused heavily on regulatory compliance - its intricacies and its costs.

"That was a big theme of the whole conference," said Jerry Brito, director of the technology policy program at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. Brito said businesses exchanging Bitcoins were coming to terms with the fact that they would now need to get licensed as money transmitters in 48 U.S. states, a process requiring in-person interviews in each state, thanks to FinCEN's guidance.

"Everything I'm telling you, I've learned over the past couple of months as I'm racing to learn," said Brito, who attended the Bitcoin Conference in San Jose. "I think that's what the Bitcoin community is doing too."

Charlie Shrem, chief executive of Bitcoin transfer firm BitInstant.com, told the conference about the importance of complying with the new rules.

"You have to know your customer," he told the audience, according to a video posted on the Internet. "Whether or not you agree with the laws or not, you've got to follow them."

The FinCEN statement means companies that exchange Bitcoins for hard currency must now hire full-time compliance officers to verify the identities of users, especially those looking to transfer Bitcoins out of the digital world and back into dollars or other hard currencies. Estimates vary on how much it costs to get compliant, but licensing and registration fees alone can total in the tens of thousands of dollars, an added heavy cost for small startup businesses.

Brito said the Bitcoin community is also trying to increase its contact with law enforcement and regulators. The Bitcoin Foundation, a Bitcoin advocacy group made up of Bitcoin-related business owners and software programmers, is looking to hire a full-time lawyer based in Washington to make its case to regulators and lawmakers.

Some members of the community are declining to discuss regulation. Jon Matonis, the Bitcoin Foundation's secretary who is identified on the group's website as one of two spokesmen for press inquiries, told Reuters: "I am electing to take a brief break from commenting on issues such as this."

U.S. law enforcement officials are looking first and foremost to unmask criminals operating in cyberspace and arrest them, wherever they may be in the world, and they're looking to digital currency businesses to help.

Ed Lowery, special agent in charge of the U.S. Secret Service's criminal investigative division, said the agency is working "aggressively with our international partners" to pursue cyber crime and the companies that permit the misuse of digital currencies. He declined to comment specifically on Bitcoin.

Liberty Reserve has not been the only recent target for the authorities. The Tokyo-based firm Mt. Gox, the world's largest exchanger of U.S. dollars with Bitcoins, had two accounts held by its U.S. subsidiary seized this month by agents from the Department of Homeland Security on the grounds that it was operating a money transmitting business without a license.

Mt. Gox on Thursday announced it would require all of its users accounts to be verified before allowing them to perform any more deposits or withdrawals. Its founder declined to comment for this story.

Other companies are simply trying to avoid having to comply with U.S. rules by keeping away from the country. Following FinCEN's statement, two digital currency firms structured similarly to Liberty Reserve - Russia-based WebMoney and Panama-based Perfect Money - restricted access to their services from inside the United States.

Vyacheslav Andryushchenko, a spokesman for WebMoney in Russia, said each of the company's 20 million users had to agree to prohibitions against money laundering and illegal trade when signing up for an account. Users who violate the rules are cut off, and all actions inside WebMoney's system are recorded, the spokesman said. A user is blocked if there are any suspicions of anything illegal. In addition, the less personal information the user provides, the fewer services are available to him or her, the spokesman said.

Several messages on the listed number on Perfect Money's website were not returned. The company's address is an empty suite in an office block on the northwestern side of Panama City. A secretary in a neighboring office said she had never seen anyone go in or out.

(Reporting by Emily Flitter in New York and Brett Wolf in St. Louis; Additional reporting by Maria Kiselyova in Moscow and Lomi Kriel in Panama City; Editing by Martin Howell and Richard Chang)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/31/us-digitalcurrency-regulation-bitcoin-idUSBRE94U17X20130531

[nmersulypnem]

Digital currency firms rush to adopt anti-money laundering rules

(Reuters) - These are unsettling times for digital currency businesses and the venture capitalists backing them.

On Tuesday, authorities in Spain, Costa Rica and New York arrested five people at the digital currency firm Liberty Reserve, including its founder Arthur Budovsky, and seized related bank accounts and Internet domains.

.....

(Reporting by Emily Flitter in New York and Brett Wolf in St. Louis; Additional reporting by Maria Kiselyova in Moscow and Lomi Kriel in Panama City; Editing by Martin Howell and Richard Chang)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/31/us-digitalcurrency-regulation-bitcoin-idUSBRE94U17X20130531

There's a similar article in the Wall Street Journal this morning.  I am actually very happy to see that exchanges like MtGox are taking steps to achieve legitimacy.  The various statements from the regulators after the Liberty Reserve raid demonstrated that they are willing to work with the exchanges to have them be compliant.  MtGox is not getting shut down - at least not until they've been given a chance to comply.  It's all very good news.

[nmersulypnem]

Currency trading on MtGox...

[ChartBuddy]

[nmersulypnem]

Wallzilla killed the volume.

I'm really curious as to why there's a wall in many currencies.

Gox has only one market for all currencies.  The bids/asks in any given currency are converted to show in all other currencies, with a exchange fee built in.  The fee does not go to Gox, since they ironically are not licensed to exchange between various fiat currencies. Instead the fee goes to their bank, which does the actual fiat exchange.

The upshot is that if you place a bid in USD it shows up in Pounds, Euros, Baht, whatever else as well.

Source: MagicalTux in irc a few weeks ago.

That's how it works. It's in their FAQ, BTW

That´s not right.
Every currency has its own market on Gox.
Look at the Canadian Dollar chart or at the polish Zloty at Gox and compare it with the USD,GBP or EUR chart.
Every market has another volume.

Think before you type.

First, Bitcycle told you he is quoting Karpeles from IRC, so you should give him some credit.

Secondly, I'm telling you to check it in Gox's FAQ

Thirdly, and most important, look at the different currencies at Gox. You will see that if there was independent ask/bids for every currency, there would be no liquidity in any market except the USD. Then, check the walls. Isn't it strange for you that you have walls of the same proportion in every currency?

And finally, check MtGox's FAQ:

Q. Do you keep independent ask/bid tables for different currencies?

A. No, ask/bid tables for different currencies are not independent. All currencies are relative to whichever currency has the highest volume, which is based on said currencies current market price in bitcoin. Every trade is in one pool and in fact, not are not separate currency markets. This allows users the added benefit of trading in "the greater market" -in currencies they understand- while not limiting them to smaller currency markets.

For example, if a buy order for bitcoins is placed in EUR, the order can be executed against another user selling bitcoins in any currency and not necessarily only against another user selling bitcoins in EUR.

EDIT: well, niothor was quicker than me

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

[KS]

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.

[nmersulypnem]

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.

That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.

[KS]

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.

That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.

or bank fees. money goes out -> transfer fee, gets exchanged -> exchange fee, goes back in -> transfer fee, you buy BTC -> Gox fee. I can see it reaching 2.5%.

[ChartBuddy]

[ChartBuddy]

[nmersulypnem]

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.

That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.

or bank fees. money goes out -> transfer fee, gets exchanged -> exchange fee, goes back in -> transfer fee, you buy BTC -> Gox fee. I can see it reaching 2.5%.

No, because MtGox doesn't actually make those conversions.  They just have one large account per currency and only need to transfer from one currency to another if the net currency shift drives one currency account too low.  I would say that, for the most part, they are almost never incurring any cost at all.  That 2.5% is all profit.  In any case, I would guess that it is often unlikely that any of the cross currency orders actually get filled since they are 2.5% below market (unless there's a persistent currency:BTC spread).

[KS]

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.

That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.

or bank fees. money goes out -> transfer fee, gets exchanged -> exchange fee, goes back in -> transfer fee, you buy BTC -> Gox fee. I can see it reaching 2.5%.

No, because MtGox doesn't actually make those conversions.  They just have one large account per currency and only need to transfer from one currency to another if the net currency shift drives one currency account too low.  I would say that, for the most part, they are almost never incurring any cost at all.  That 2.5% is all profit.  In any case, I would guess that it is often unlikely that any of the cross currency orders actually get filled since they are 2.5% below market (unless there's a persistent currency:BTC spread).

Technically they are not supposed to do fiat currency exchange. It might be they do not, in fact, move funds around with each operation. However, in case, say, some Gov agency forces them to do so, their expenses are covered by the 2.5% fee.

As you say, it will definitely discourage traders from opening cross currency orders, which makes gox's life easier. (don't think they would make much in cross currency fees)

[SZD]

BTC is so boring now. It's been b/w 110 and 130 for a month! Given the huge risks associated w/ BTC trading I'd expect equally huge returns. Not really worth it to trade anymore.

[ChartBuddy]

[Abandon]

BTC is so boring now. It's been b/w 110 and 130 for a month! Given the huge risks associated w/ BTC trading I'd expect equally huge returns. Not really worth it to trade anymore.

There was likely going to be a big upward rally on the 25th, but the Libery Reserve incident killed it. I'm still not ruling out a large price movement in the short term.