bitserve
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April 12, 2020, 02:27:07 AM Merited by JayJuanGee (1) |
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Some feedback on that article: Jennifer L Kasten, MD, MSc, MSc
COVID-19 4/8: 1) Debunking the "COVID had us all fooled" hemoglobin theory; 2) British NHS cancels 3.5 million inferior-quality Chinese antibody tests.
Firstly, many have read an alternative physiologic mechanism of the coronavirus which has been circulating. The theory was originally published on Medium by a non-MD, non-physiologist; a self-titled "professional disrupter" called Andrew Gaiziunas (AKA "libertymavenstock"), who predominantly is on the internet as a cryptocurrency enthusiast but who happened to read a single non-peer reviewed journal article about SARS-CoV-2 inhibiting human heme synthesis, an education which he felt was sufficient to permit him to comment.
Let's start with the original paper. It involved computer analysis of the predicted structure of the virus' proteins, in three dimensions. (Computer simulation is a common technique in the field of proteomics). The authors noticed, wow, it looks like the structure of a couple of the surface proteins could "dock" with the heme synthesis mechanism human red blood cells employ. "Could" being the operative word- this has never been observed, as the virus is not found in human blood except rarely in ultra-highly-infected people. The authors quite inappropriately titled their paper "COVID-19 Attacks the 1-Beta Chain..." instead of "A couple of proteins in this virus could theoretically bind with the 1-beta chain.. based on our structural simulation."
So, the Gaiziunas piece started from the assumption that this was scientific fact instead of an extremely theoretical, unproven, unlikely assertion. He was then off to the races. His main premise is that basically COVID-19 isn't a primary respiratory disease, it's a blood disease. It causes organ failure of all organs, not just the lungs, at the same time, and that's what kills people. He asserts they don't have ARDS, but instead red blood cells release maverick, rogue radical oxygen species which causes unmitigated tissue damage.
There is no evidence for any of this, and if anyone took it seriously (treating COVID with blood transfusions instead of respiratory support) it would be extremely dangerous. Let's start: we pathologists can visualize the virus, with our eyes and our light & electron microscopes, infecting the Type 2 pneumocytes of the lungs, along with the cells lining the respiratory tree and associated mucinous glands. We know the virus enters these cells via its spike protein and the ACE receptor. And we also know the virus is generally never found in blood. Unlike the lung cells, we cannot see it in human red blood cells, though we've looked (out of interest in this theory a few people have tried hemoglobin electrophoresis and looked carefully at peripheral smears, and came up with nothing).
We can also see ARDS- there is a specific cascade of visible changes, including the filling of the airspaces with fluid which eventually coalesce into sticky coatings called hyaline membranes. I will attach a nice photo from Xiao et al of the lung pathology in COVID patients to this post, which include virus in the cells. The hyaline membranes coat the gas-exchange part of the lungs, making gas exchange difficult and sending the infected patient teetering off into respiratory failure. That being said- apart from him, there is some interest generated in alternative ventilatory strategies for COVID, because the patients do seem to tolerate hypoxemia (lower blood oxygen saturation) better than other respiratory failure patients, so some critical care doctors are letting them "go lower" to avoid intubation than they would usually be comfortable with.
I want to stress that anyone can come up with a good idea. The fact that Andrew Gaiziunas doesn't have a relevant background doesn't mean that his idea, if reasonable or interesting, shouldn't be considered. But it is rather fun to point out the howlers:
- he describes "high-pressure intubation" instead of mechanical ventilation - he refers to the malaria parasite as "bacteria" - he states confidently that ground-glass opacities on CT scan "are always bilateral" [no] in COVID and that this fact is somehow supportive of his theory - he states the kidneys make erythropoietin which causes an acutely detectable rise in hemoglobin, in a matter of hours (takes weeks - he states the acute liver damage in multi-system organ failure is due to iron scavenging (takes years)
2) I've written before about poor-quality tests with hasty/improper/skipped validation data and poor cross-reactivity. The damage to the public, if bad tests with lots of false positives due to reacting with "common cold" coronaviruses, is considerable. Britain had made widescale population-level antibody testing a cornerstone of its control & re-entry strategy, but returned the 3.5 million bad tests to China. Matt Hancock, Health Secretary and COVID patient, rightly said "no test is better than a bad test."
I do not trust Jennifer. The biggest problem I see with the hemoglobin theory is that it would have been PRETTY EASY to confirm. Even without any proper clinical studies. Just take one patient that is on ventilation and instead hook him to an artificial lung (blood oxygenator). If it still doesn't saturate well then the theory proves correct, if it does it's bullshit. And why do I say that it is a problem? Because it is well known that the Japanese (at least) have hook some patients to artificial lungs and if the theory was correct they would have immediately noticed something very wrong happening in a big WTF moment. So, unless the Japanese and others that have tried are hiding it, I would call that theory bullshit.
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Ibian
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April 12, 2020, 02:30:46 AM |
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Some feedback on that article: Jennifer L Kasten, MD, MSc, MSc
COVID-19 4/8: 1) Debunking the "COVID had us all fooled" hemoglobin theory; 2) British NHS cancels 3.5 million inferior-quality Chinese antibody tests.
Firstly, many have read an alternative physiologic mechanism of the coronavirus which has been circulating. The theory was originally published on Medium by a non-MD, non-physiologist; a self-titled "professional disrupter" called Andrew Gaiziunas (AKA "libertymavenstock"), who predominantly is on the internet as a cryptocurrency enthusiast but who happened to read a single non-peer reviewed journal article about SARS-CoV-2 inhibiting human heme synthesis, an education which he felt was sufficient to permit him to comment.
Let's start with the original paper. It involved computer analysis of the predicted structure of the virus' proteins, in three dimensions. (Computer simulation is a common technique in the field of proteomics). The authors noticed, wow, it looks like the structure of a couple of the surface proteins could "dock" with the heme synthesis mechanism human red blood cells employ. "Could" being the operative word- this has never been observed, as the virus is not found in human blood except rarely in ultra-highly-infected people. The authors quite inappropriately titled their paper "COVID-19 Attacks the 1-Beta Chain..." instead of "A couple of proteins in this virus could theoretically bind with the 1-beta chain.. based on our structural simulation."
So, the Gaiziunas piece started from the assumption that this was scientific fact instead of an extremely theoretical, unproven, unlikely assertion. He was then off to the races. His main premise is that basically COVID-19 isn't a primary respiratory disease, it's a blood disease. It causes organ failure of all organs, not just the lungs, at the same time, and that's what kills people. He asserts they don't have ARDS, but instead red blood cells release maverick, rogue radical oxygen species which causes unmitigated tissue damage.
There is no evidence for any of this, and if anyone took it seriously (treating COVID with blood transfusions instead of respiratory support) it would be extremely dangerous. Let's start: we pathologists can visualize the virus, with our eyes and our light & electron microscopes, infecting the Type 2 pneumocytes of the lungs, along with the cells lining the respiratory tree and associated mucinous glands. We know the virus enters these cells via its spike protein and the ACE receptor. And we also know the virus is generally never found in blood. Unlike the lung cells, we cannot see it in human red blood cells, though we've looked (out of interest in this theory a few people have tried hemoglobin electrophoresis and looked carefully at peripheral smears, and came up with nothing).
We can also see ARDS- there is a specific cascade of visible changes, including the filling of the airspaces with fluid which eventually coalesce into sticky coatings called hyaline membranes. I will attach a nice photo from Xiao et al of the lung pathology in COVID patients to this post, which include virus in the cells. The hyaline membranes coat the gas-exchange part of the lungs, making gas exchange difficult and sending the infected patient teetering off into respiratory failure. That being said- apart from him, there is some interest generated in alternative ventilatory strategies for COVID, because the patients do seem to tolerate hypoxemia (lower blood oxygen saturation) better than other respiratory failure patients, so some critical care doctors are letting them "go lower" to avoid intubation than they would usually be comfortable with.
I want to stress that anyone can come up with a good idea. The fact that Andrew Gaiziunas doesn't have a relevant background doesn't mean that his idea, if reasonable or interesting, shouldn't be considered. But it is rather fun to point out the howlers:
- he describes "high-pressure intubation" instead of mechanical ventilation - he refers to the malaria parasite as "bacteria" - he states confidently that ground-glass opacities on CT scan "are always bilateral" [no] in COVID and that this fact is somehow supportive of his theory - he states the kidneys make erythropoietin which causes an acutely detectable rise in hemoglobin, in a matter of hours (takes weeks - he states the acute liver damage in multi-system organ failure is due to iron scavenging (takes years)
2) I've written before about poor-quality tests with hasty/improper/skipped validation data and poor cross-reactivity. The damage to the public, if bad tests with lots of false positives due to reacting with "common cold" coronaviruses, is considerable. Britain had made widescale population-level antibody testing a cornerstone of its control & re-entry strategy, but returned the 3.5 million bad tests to China. Matt Hancock, Health Secretary and COVID patient, rightly said "no test is better than a bad test."
I do not trust Jennifer. The biggest problem I see with the hemoglobin theory is that it would have been PRETTY EASY to confirm. Even without any proper clinical studies. Just take one patient that is on ventilation and instead hook him to an artificial lung (blood oxygenator). If it still doesn't saturate well then the theory proves correct, if it does it's bullshit. And why do I say that it is a problem? Because it is well known that the Japanese (at least) have hook some patients to artificial lungs and if the theory was correct they would have immediately noticed something very wrong happening in a big WTF moment. So, unless the Japanese and others that have tried are hiding it, I would call that theory bullshit. Crap. So now what? I still do not trust Jennifer.
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bitserve
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April 12, 2020, 03:18:08 AM |
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Call me when we surpass 2009's H1N1 deaths at 575,000 under Obama when the media was more focused on his Nobel Peace Prize than "they're dying!".
Where did they bury the bodies then?
Just to put things in perspective, H1N1 killed an estimated 12K persons in the US over a period of one year (2009-2010). Around the same people (20K) have already died in US from covid during the past few weeks. Also there are places like NY where the incidence is huge. So yes, it is reasonable that one order of magnitude more bodies to cremate/bury in a short timeframe does suppose a little problem. Not the biggest one though.
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marcus_of_augustus
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Interesting. We just passed 20k dead in the US on this one. Let's see on April 1 we had just gotten to 4000 after being at 2000 3 days earlier. So 16,000 dead in 10 days. If we have 36,000 dead by April 20 then we're doing really well. Hm. Not quite the millions dead in the original charts, but will be interesting to see. ... you seem particularly challenged on the numbers comprehension front but I'll play along. The millions in the original charts would be what happened if there were no interventions, expansion of ICUs etc ... take a look around, does it look like everything is the same as 'normal'? It's like claiming "where are all the dead?" for the town that didn't get burnt down because the bushfire in the park upwind was put out instead of allowed to burn. But you and the other guys would have waited until the hospitals were overflowing before doing anything, using the same "where are all the dead?" dumbfuck logic too btw. At that point the virus is widespread and your are a 4-5 weeks behind the exponentially increasing numbers curve .... but fine the dumbfucks got their 2 cents worth in and the West is probably 'only' 2-3 weeks behind the curve so 'only' tens of thousands will be dying ... in this first round. What happens in the next round is up to you ...
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Toxic2040
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Interesting. We just passed 20k dead in the US on this one. Let's see on April 1 we had just gotten to 4000 after being at 2000 3 days earlier. So 16,000 dead in 10 days. If we have 36,000 dead by April 20 then we're doing really well. Hm. Not quite the millions dead in the original charts, but will be interesting to see. ... you seem particularly challenged on the numbers comprehension front but I'll play along. The millions in the original charts would be what happened if there were no interventions, expansion of ICUs etc ... take a look around, does it look like everything is the same as 'normal'? It's like claiming "where are all the dead?" for the town that didn't get burnt down because the bushfire in the park upwind was put out instead of allowed to burn. But you and the other guys would have waited until the hospitals were overflowing before doing anything, using the same "where are all the dead?" dumbfuck logic too btw. At that point the virus is widespread and your are a 4-5 weeks behind the exponentially increasing numbers curve .... but fine the dumbfucks got their 2 cents worth in and the West is probably 'only' 2-3 weeks behind the curve so 'only' tens of thousands will be dying ... in this first round. What happens in the next round is up to you ... you can play around with some numbers here per state and county in the US it just models the acute care and ICU bed demand..still.. https://surf.stanford.edu/covid-19-tools/covid-19/i picked it up watching this video..its long...dry..and boring..also scary as fuck i want my civil liberties back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAX9PzSXDEw
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jojo69
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April 12, 2020, 04:25:23 AM |
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Sino-Canadians
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VB1001
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April 12, 2020, 04:46:57 AM Last edit: April 12, 2020, 05:26:33 AM by VB1001 Merited by vapourminer (1) |
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. RIP Bruno SK ... -.- When referring to a person, the phrase Silent Key, and its abbreviation SK, is a euphemism for an amateur radio operator who is deceased.[24] The procedural signal "SK" has historically been used in Morse code as the last signal sent from a station before ending operation,[25] usually just before shutting off the transmitter. Since this was the last signal received by other operators, the code was adopted to refer to any amateur radio operator who is deceased, regardless of whether they were known to have used telegraphy in their communications. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio_operator
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VB1001
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April 12, 2020, 05:01:33 AM |
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Bitcoin Volume and Returns Remain Stable Amid Global Economic UncertaintyDespite the reduction in transactions, traders still view the current prices as a good investment opportunity and data from glassnode shows that the number of Bitcoin whales holding at least 1,000 BTC has risen to its highest point in more than 2 years. This shows that investors are still feeling bullish about Bitcoin’s future prospects and with the halving only 31 days away it is useful to analyze trading volume and transaction patterns. https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-volume-and-returns-remain-stable-amid-global-economic-uncertainty
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BayAreaCoins
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April 12, 2020, 05:38:59 AM |
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do you really need your stupid fat nose rubbed in a mass grave to get the stench of death through your thick skull?
Even if that happened... catching COVID19 would be the least of my worries! ick! Old people stink alive. (no offense old people) ... just the flu bro, no-one's dying bro, just 90yo cancer patients bro ... no kids dying bro. Denial is a long river for some It is less than the flu at the moment. Flu deaths this year: 135,871 COVID-19 deaths this year: 108,837 Please come back to reality. Babies killed by doctors doing abortions this year: 11,875,701 ![Undecided](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/undecided.gif) Deaths due to smoking: 404,983,987 and these are still for sale during this "epidemic".
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BayAreaCoins
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April 12, 2020, 05:39:42 AM |
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do you really need your stupid fat nose rubbed in a mass grave to get the stench of death through your thick skull?
Even if that happened... catching COVID19 would be the least of my worries! ick! Old people stink alive. (no offense old people) ... just the flu bro, no-one's dying bro, just 90yo cancer patients bro ... no kids dying bro. Denial is a long river for some It is less than the flu at the moment. Flu deaths this year: 135,871 COVID-19 deaths this year: 108,837 Please come back to reality. Babies killed by doctors doing abortions this year: 11,875,701 ![Undecided](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/undecided.gif) Deaths due to smoking: 404,983,987 and these are still for sale during this "epidemic". Source: https://www.worldometers.info/Denial is a long river for some I agree. My local hospital laid people off and cut ICU nurse's pay! It's scary here and not because of a virus!!! Reality. Happy Easter!!!! ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fa4e14de66b078c74cd9508385e8e2d64%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D11470120&t=665&c=e4GauuOcaI4xgA)
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virasog
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April 12, 2020, 05:44:34 AM |
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So how can be prevent the coronavirus ? ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FixU8TRF.png&t=665&c=sGN3YVWGPne2gA)
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JayJuanGee
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April 12, 2020, 06:54:29 AM |
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There may be some misreading of what I was attempting to search for, and that has been attempt to find the right word. I was thinking that Spradlin had already died, so I may have been mixing up my facts a little. I suppose that I am a bit torn because I surely do not want anyone to die or even to fall down with severe or debilitating symptoms, but there still is the concept of the karma or the just desserts, and Spradlin did seem to be denying upon the phenomenon pretty heavily... so some of us might believe that we are somewhat invincible and not even realizing the intensity of something so small and invisible to the eye, such as a virus. We are about 5 months into this thing, and there continue to be a lot of difficulties even describing the mechanisms of it, the treatment, preventative measures and even tests are not being widely done.. rather than on an as needed basis... and jeez personal protective equipment problems and even insufficiencies in facilities and staff.... and probably both the supply chain and the lack of production is going to have some lagging effect that is still coming... and sure, death supposedly having a lagging effect too, which causes a considerable amount of lack of confidence in how much any of this is really coming under control, so surely, it would be nice to see the number of new cases and deaths going down.. which I am not really seeing that, with current data. I had seen some proposal in the real world from relatives regarding traveling relatively short distances to meet for Easter with mixed ages, and even my position was that I don't like restrictions, but meeting seems risky (and even not necessary) until some of this is coming under either better control or better knowledge of where it is at exactly in terms of leveling off and treatment/testing measures. Probably several of us do not feel vulnerable, until we find out how our body specifically reacts. Isn't there another component, too? which is the question of whether there might be permanent damage and even questions about whether sufficient anti-bodies are formed in order to NOT be subjected to the virus again (and for how long? short term or longer term?). TLDR: Currently, seems to be more questions than answers.. so sorry about that wee ramble, not that it is the first time that a few extra words had happened to have been thrown out there on any particular topic.
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El duderino_
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April 12, 2020, 07:10:11 AM |
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Rip .
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El duderino_
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Cryptotourist
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April 12, 2020, 07:17:17 AM |
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... such a muppet, ~
Spot on marcus, yes you are. Denial is a long river for some For you is another story. A r0ach story. You remind me of him basically for two reasons: 1. No matter what members tell you, you steadily follow through your shilling narrative (pm's before, now death). 2. You hate the world. All this somehow gives you pleasure. Why is it so important that you write all this shit here on the WO?Go to the Corona thread(s). But no. You are been paid to do it here, right r0achie?
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Last of the V8s
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April 12, 2020, 07:55:54 AM |
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cough to the elbow, 'cos the hand ain't listening
All Members.
Today’s topical humour for your amusement.
Regards,
Hon Sec
At 7:45 am today I was standing in a queue at ASDA that opened at eight for seniors only. A young man came from the car park and tried to cut in at the front of the line; an old lady in the queue beat him back into the car park with her walking stick. Not a pretty sight, but very entertaining.
The young man returned again trying once more to reach the front of the orderly line of senior folk. This time an elderly gentleman punched him in the stomach, kicked him to the ground and rolled him away. Must have been a former Guardsman or Marine!!!
As he approached the line for the third time, looking haggard and exhausted, he said to the assembled queue, "If you don't let me through to unlock the door, you'll never get in there."
Thank you Dennis W***** for this one.
~dadjokesfightingthecoofefe
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Amlloi
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April 12, 2020, 08:00:42 AM |
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Coronavirus is the biggest lie after 9/11 that mankind ever seen. Media is hyping it to pass the elite agenda. Anyone who suffers from any illness and passes away is told to be died from Coronavirus to pump the numbers. What a joke , I guess only low IQ people believe in this hoax
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JayJuanGee
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Coronavirus is the biggest lie after 9/11 that mankind ever seen. Media is hyping it to pass the elite agenda. Anyone who suffers from any illness and passes away is told to be died from Coronavirus to pump the numbers. What a joke , I guess only low IQ people believe in this hoax
The earth is flat too, right?
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