Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Dabs]

Hi guys! ...

[machasm]

Hi guys! ...

Hi Ya,
Long time no see.

[empowering]

I mean a NFT that represents a real world asset is sorta more interesting......

Is it now?

Here is my NFT for sale for a 1000g gold bar. I'll even sell it to for 20% off of spot price....

I think your missing the point.  Nft as a public register for land/property etc can be very useful

No, it can't. Just saying that doesn't make it true.

Because a legal property deed is legally binding and can be defended in a court of law.

An NFT is not "useful". At all. Period. It does not give the owner any exclusive legal rights to the thing it points to, and cannot be legally defended in a court of law.

If anyone is missing the point, it is not me.

Thing is, things develop and things change, so I do not imagine the deed issue being around for too long... and there are workable workarounds, for example, in the US at the moment you are correct re the deeds they cannot currently be linked to NFTs (yet) .... however what can and had been done is that the property (if we are talking real estate) , is first transferred into a LLC, and then the company, is then minted to a NFT, and it is this company that is bought or sold, and rights to the company (and therefore the property are stored on the blockchain)

.... and I think there is a good chance that this space will continue to evolve.


There are also solutions for tokenised/nft for equity release from properties too.. which again has the potential to evolve going forward.

....and as mentioned in previous post, I am pretty sure that we will be seeing this within the art collection industry too, and possibly wine also.


....could all this be done using tokens/smart contracts and sans "NFTs"  yeah totally..


Anyways we shall see what the market thinks of such things going forward as things evolve... and that will answer the question one way or another.


(ps yes the LLC route could potentially have unwanted tax implications)

[Torque]

Thing is, things develop and things change, so I do not imagine the deed issue being around for too long... and there are workable workarounds, for example, in the US at the moment you are correct re the deeds they cannot currently be linked to NFTs (yet) .... however what can and had been done is that the property (if we are talking real estate) , is first transferred into a LLC, and then the company, is then minted to a NFT, and it is this company that is bought or sold, and rights to the company (and therefore the property are stored on the blockchain)

.... and I think there is a good chance that this space will continue to evolve.


There are also solutions for tokenised/nft for equity release from properties too.. which again has the potential to evolve going forward.

....and as mentioned in previous post, I am pretty sure that we will be seeing this within the art collection industry too, and possibly wine also.


....could all this be done using tokens/smart contracts and sans "NFTs"  yeah totally..

NFTs and a blockchain don't add anything useful or missing to any of those scenarios you mentioned, because the existing, legally-binding ownership laws, contract laws, deeds, etc. already cover it and cover it well. There are no deficiencies or gaps that an NFT would fill, and there are no inefficiencies in the process that an NFT would make better.

So again, the point of NFTs then? A solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

[empowering]

Thing is, things develop and things change, so I do not imagine the deed issue being around for too long... and there are workable workarounds, for example, in the US at the moment you are correct re the deeds they cannot currently be linked to NFTs (yet) .... however what can and had been done is that the property (if we are talking real estate) , is first transferred into a LLC, and then the company, is then minted to a NFT, and it is this company that is bought or sold, and rights to the company (and therefore the property are stored on the blockchain)

.... and I think there is a good chance that this space will continue to evolve.


There are also solutions for tokenised/nft for equity release from properties too.. which again has the potential to evolve going forward.

....and as mentioned in previous post, I am pretty sure that we will be seeing this within the art collection industry too, and possibly wine also.


....could all this be done using tokens/smart contracts and sans "NFTs"  yeah totally..

NFTs and a blockchain don't add anything useful or missing to any of those scenarios you mentioned, because the existing, legally-binding ownership laws, contract laws, deeds, etc. already cover it and cover it well.

So again, the point of NFTs then? A solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

Welll sorta, using blockchains/smart contracts , could streamline and speed up the entire process (instant settlement, in a world that is moving more and more to instant gratification) as real estate transactions can be notoriously slow, when they do not have to be.

 Also, over my side of the pond at least, deed transfer companies and the like have been ordered to "come up to speed" in terms of usability/ease of use/speed AND COST! , so there is a entrenched set of actors within this aspect and all aspects of real estate , that are ripe for the pickings in terms of disintermediation....

Also tokenisation one way or another of property (assets in general) allow also the ability for fractionalised ownership/investment/equity release of property, or at least has the potential to make it easier.

I mean, banking also has and had established players, laws regulations too.... and had not innovated for many many decades, but the box needed shaking... and if anything the current status quo of real estate transactions, is even more archaic and even slower, than banking is, and that is saying something.

Things change and things evolve.

Market will tell us going forward if this happens or not...


I try not to think in absolutes  

[Dabs]

I think the point is that for now, these registers for property are simply databases or records, centralized and can mostly be accessed by anyone. Sometimes they are online, sometimes they are hardcopy (paper only) for some really old records that have not yet been computerized, and this can be seen in ancient records in some countries.

I know for example, my mother-in-laws birth certificate was not in their database, so she had to file for something called "late registration", and that's for something as recent as within the years 1940 to 1950. There are many cases like this that I have seen, even some as young or same age as me, because they are born in a different hospital or jurisdiction that did not have computers and everything was hand-written, and those original documents got lost, burned, damaged or whatever.

Eventually, they will be on some public or government website, and maybe from there they might transition to blockchains, and that's where these NFTs come in. How they are treated legally will take some time, just like how court cases involving evidence have evolved to allow DNA, and marks on bullets/casings for firearms related cases, and now they might even accept video or photos as evidence, provided they are proven not tampered or photoshopped or deep faked.

They took decades to digitize stuff, they will probably wait a few more years before anything happens.

[philipma1957]

I mean a NFT that represents a real world asset is sorta more interesting......

Is it now?

Here is my NFT for sale for a 1000g gold bar. I'll even sell it to for 20% off of spot price....

I think your missing the point.  Nft as a public register for land/property etc can be very useful

No, it can't. Just saying that doesn't make it true.

Because a legal property deed is legally binding and can be defended in a court of law.

An NFT is not "useful". At all. Period. It does not give the owner any exclusive legal rights to the thing it points to, and cannot be legally defended in a court of law.

If anyone is missing the point, it is not me.

Andy Warhol and his campbell soup series was the grandfather of nfts he mus be laugh 😹 ing in his grave.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Arriemoller]

This war has been an eye opener for me in many ways.
I did my military service in 1980-81 in the coastal artillery regiment 3 (KA3) on the island of Gotland, the closest we had to the Soviet /Warsaw pact border.
I served in something called ”rörlig spärrbataljon” I don’t know how to really translate that, but it would be something like ”mobile stopping batalion”. Our job was to, together with other parts of the armed forces, stop a soviet invasion, in our case to shoot and sink the soviet landing ships coming at us from the Warsaw pact.
We had some damn good cannons to do that with, and I was manning a AA gun unit whose job it was to provide close air security for those cannons.

In 1992 I was recruited to the then newly formed Marine Home Guard.
My job would be to do what I was to do in case of war, namely manning a AA gun unit, in a ”Fast spärrbataljon” that translates to something like ”fixed stopping batalion”. Basically the same as before but not mobile. By that time the warsaw pact was no more and the only remaining enemy was the Russian Federation, however, in my mind, and in many peoples minds, that pretty much still equated to the old soviet union/Warsaw pact, it was just some kind of default setting in our brains.

And that default setting didn’t change until the Russians attacked Ukraine and I started really looking at the map and realized that Russia only has one port from where they can do a landing operation on Sweden and that is Königsberg/Kaliningrad, instead of all the Baltic states, Poland and East Gemany as it used to be.

The cannons were scrapped when the Swedish government decided, around 2000 that the eternal peace had come, and the coast was defended by missiles instead, namely the Rbs 15.
As it dawned on the government that Russia had not turned in to a peaceful democracy more and better missiles were made.
And what I finally realized was that we now have enough of these missiles to sink every landing ship and escort that that the russians can send towards us from Kaliningrad.

And with an air force about the size of the Ukrainian air force and 30 planes in storage, but with much better jets and state of the art missiles, especially the Meteor, the Russian air force in this region would not be a big problem for us.

In other words, I have recently realized that Russia is not a real threat to Sweden, and that feels good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBS_15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_(missile)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Coastal_Artillery#Cold_War

[Torque]

I think the point is that for now, these registers for property are simply databases or records, centralized and can mostly be accessed by anyone. Sometimes they are online, sometimes they are hardcopy (paper only) for some really old records that have not yet been computerized, and this can be seen in ancient records in some countries.

I know for example, my mother-in-laws birth certificate was not in their database, so she had to file for something called "late registration", and that's for something as recent as within the years 1940 to 1950. There are many cases like this that I have seen, even some as young or same age as me, because they are born in a different hospital or jurisdiction that did not have computers and everything was hand-written, and those original documents got lost, burned, damaged or whatever.

Eventually, they will be on some public or government website, and maybe from there they might transition to blockchains, and that's where these NFTs come in. How they are treated legally will take some time, just like how court cases involving evidence have evolved to allow DNA, and marks on bullets/casings for firearms related cases, and now they might even accept video or photos as evidence, provided they are proven not tampered or photoshopped or deep faked.

They took decades to digitize stuff, they will probably wait a few more years before anything happens.

Even if certain entities like govt offices start using an NFT/blockchain behind the scenes as a form of back office recordkeeping, who tf cares? What's the big deal? You'll still need to show ID, fill out digital paperwork or contracts, pay fees, have lawyers look it over, and endure waiting periods, all to get legal entitlement to the "thing". An NFT/blockchain won't change that process or make it easier/more efficient for the end user.

This whole idea of a future world where you'll buy a piece of real estate, a company, or get a divorce with a "single click of a mouse", get instant settlement and the NFT is all you will ever need, is a fantasy at best, and complete delusion at worst. The idea of a single global, centralized blockchain-driven NFT database for everything that is legally defensible is even more laughable.

Also, all the govt, corporate, legal, and other intermediaries that get fees to process all this stuff, have a vested interest in the status quo process. Because money. That will NEVER change, ever. If anything, it is likely to get worse. They will wring every dime they can out of the existing process, and even a new or modified process involving a blockchain.

[empowering]

https://jshee.substack.com/p/how-crypto-is-transforming-the-real?s=r

Blockchain based REIT anyone?

Not the worst read

[empowering]

Also, all the govt, corporate, legal, and other intermediaries that get fees to process all this stuff, have a vested interest in the status quo process. Because money. That will NEVER change, ever. If anything, it is likely to get worse. They will wring every dime they can out of the existing process.

Until they figure out that it can shave their margins too and enable them to make even more money....

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2019/05/24/could-blockchain-be-the-future-of-the-property-market/

(ps same goes for other player in the real estate industry, from developers to investors)


pps "To demonstrate the benefits of a fully distributed network, we worked with leading conveyancing firms Mishcon de Reya and MyHomeMove, payment intermediary Shieldpay, digital identity provider Yoti and HM Revenue & Customs to build an end-to-end proof of concept. We also created a simple mobile interface for the buyer and seller so they could complete their actions on their mobile phones, such as verifying their identity and signing their agreements. All we needed then was a real life property transaction to test the prototype"


ppps "The first digital transfer
On 6 March 2019 the sale of a recently refurbished, semi-detached house in Gillingham had completed. It had taken 22 weeks, much longer than the six weeks the buyer and seller had expected. In early April we sat down with all the parties involved to see how much time it would take to run the sale and purchase through our blockchain prototype.

We used a video chat to bring everyone together. The buyer, Peter, was at work in Medway and his conveyancer was in Manchester. The seller, Stefan, was in his partner’s home in Gravesend and his conveyancer was in central London. The Digital Street team were in Plymouth, with representatives from Yoti in London and Shieldpay calling in from Malaga, Spain. Once each action had completed (such as drafting the sales agreement) the application automatically informed the next party it was their turn to act. The demonstration of the technology ran through, end to end, in less than 10 minutes."

pppps Her Majesty's Land Registration here in the UK is where the buck stops, and from my understanding they are still actively working with companies to bring the whole process here "up to speed" in terms of cost and ease of use/accessibility , and I expect them to continue to do so..... will blockchains and NFTs have a role to play and gain traction going forward... perhaps , time will tell


ppppps - 10 minutes is better than 22 weeks, or 6 weeks.

[aysg76]

A picture which speaks the true reality and thousands words if you are understanding how the hell idealogy of the people has changed over the years about bitcoin inspite of many talking shit about it knowing nothing:



The fees and speed issues are solved by the LN channels and bitcoin capacity is increasing day by day with increased adoption but still if you belong to that group of people saying btc is dead and will not surge then you are on the wrong planet and maybe when Musk will colonize Mars doge and shitcoins can be used 

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Cosmic Beyonders]

Source : https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-institutional-buying-could-be-big-narrative-again-as-30k-btc-leaves-coinbase?utm_source=Telegram&utm_medium=social

[jojo69]

https://news.bitcoin.com/fumb-games-mobile-app-bitcoin-miner-integrates-real-btc-rewards-via-zebedee/

North Korean hackers target gamers in $615m crypto heist

[Torque]

Also, all the govt, corporate, legal, and other intermediaries that get fees to process all this stuff, have a vested interest in the status quo process. Because money. That will NEVER change, ever. If anything, it is likely to get worse. They will wring every dime they can out of the existing process.

Until they figure out that it can shave their margins too and enable them to make even more money....

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2019/05/24/could-blockchain-be-the-future-of-the-property-market/

(ps same goes for other player in the real estate industry, from developers to investors)


pps "To demonstrate the benefits of a fully distributed network, we worked with leading conveyancing firms Mishcon de Reya and MyHomeMove, payment intermediary Shieldpay, digital identity provider Yoti and HM Revenue & Customs to build an end-to-end proof of concept. We also created a simple mobile interface for the buyer and seller so they could complete their actions on their mobile phones, such as verifying their identity and signing their agreements. All we needed then was a real life property transaction to test the prototype"


ppps "The first digital transfer
On 6 March 2019 the sale of a recently refurbished, semi-detached house in Gillingham had completed. It had taken 22 weeks, much longer than the six weeks the buyer and seller had expected. In early April we sat down with all the parties involved to see how much time it would take to run the sale and purchase through our blockchain prototype.

We used a video chat to bring everyone together. The buyer, Peter, was at work in Medway and his conveyancer was in Manchester. The seller, Stefan, was in his partner’s home in Gravesend and his conveyancer was in central London. The Digital Street team were in Plymouth, with representatives from Yoti in London and Shieldpay calling in from Malaga, Spain. Once each action had completed (such as drafting the sales agreement) the application automatically informed the next party it was their turn to act. The demonstration of the technology ran through, end to end, in less than 10 minutes."

pppps Her Majesty's Land Registration here in the UK is where the buck stops, and from my understanding they are still actively working with companies to bring the whole process here "up to speed" in terms of cost and ease of use/accessibility , and I expect them to continue to do so..... will blockchains and NFTs have a role to play and gain traction going forward... perhaps , time will tell


ppppps - 10 minutes is better than 22 weeks, or 6 weeks.

Psssst... you can do all of that with a database and a streamlined digital process. NFTs/blockchain don't change or enable anything.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, speaking of streamlining processes:

As I sit here and contemplate the umpteenth Amazon package of mine that either got lost in the mail, or delayed by several days.

I'm reminded of that time at band camp when Jeff Bozos promised the world guaranteed 12-hour same day package delivery, and life-critical pharmaceutical 1-hour delivery by drone.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[empowering]

Psssst... you can do all of that with a database and a streamlined digital process. NFTs/blockchain don't change or enable anything.  

Well, sorta, but the very government agency who are charged with managing the land registry in the UK, and the HMRC, and many of the big players involved in the industry,  (who you earlier eluded would have nothing to gain from it and would never allow it) are in fact actively building out exactly that, using blockchain (no mention of NFTs YET)

There is a reason for that.

If I had to guess, the reason would be , that due to the nature of the transaction, and the multiple actors involved, that, from a legal standpoint, they prefer the immutability and distributed nature of a blockchain rather than a leaky old centralised system, which could potentially be gamed with more ease.  Not to mention, that there would also be a greater potential for interoperability going forward.


Personally, I would not be at all surprised, to see blockchains, and perhaps NFTs, utilised for this, and for many many other use cases...... by companies and government agencies alike.

Again, I try not to think in absolutes, and I am not married to the concept... I just do not think people realise how far advanced this already is.... and I do not think that is just pie in the sky and never going to happen...

If anything..... I think it is (almost) inevitable really

ps (and not just land registry, but conveyancing, legal, ID, taxation, lending, equity release, development funding, mortgages, contracts, buying/selling...the whole shebang and all eventually interoperable )