Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[mmitech]

--snip--

Amusing that you say bitcoin will fail yet assume the transaction volume goes up 100 times

Don't be ignorant, when did I say Bitcoin will fail ? I said IF these issues wont be fixed then Bitcoin wont survive 20 years, and I added that TCP/IP didn't have much changes in the protocol over a decade, all you wrote above is still theoretically right, but when you get a practical solution that can be implemented we can discuss things further.

and no, I don't think Bitcoin is the greatest thing after internet... this is an insult for all the huge innovators and innovations that took place the last 20 years.

well done snipping my reply out of context as I immediately followed with a statement of you using the "if it doesn't change in 20 years" excuse.
So your argument boils down to "There are potential scalability and security issues if bitcoin is not maintained for 20 years"

IPv4 will/is running out of address space. So should I say it is a failed protocol? Should I call it useless? That issue was known for a long time.
Or even more to the point. Do the address space limitations of IPv4 directly prevent you from writing witty comments in this forum? (assuming you or your provider still run on it)
The same goes for the bitcoin protocol. Absolutely essential changes will come when needed, more is bonus.

I asked you why you believe that technically bitcoin is so flawed that it simply can't last 20 years.
The issues you posted are possible problems that may or may not be relevant.
To make such a definitive claim I would have liked to hear something along the lines of "at difficulty x the nonce is too small to guarantee that a solution can be found" (btw this is a real possibility)
That would be a real issue.

[edit] just to clarify : the nonce is 4 bytes, the block hash 32. You can vary other things like the timestamp but unless you can ensure that you have at least 32 bytes to modify you may not find a solution

Btw I agree with you that bitcoin is not the greatest thing after the internet but I think it is quite significant. Some people get carried away with their enthusiasm.

I think we are arguing about the same thing here, I agree with what you said, and yes it is still all theoretically possible, again I will repeat it or rephrase it for you: "I didn't say Bitcoin will fail today or tomorrow but in order for it to be a success and be around for the next 20 years, so many things needs to be changed"

BTW: about the IPv4 argument, this is why IPv6 was found

[inca]

These sort of people would never dare post in such an area, because the opposition to their tired unsophisticated "critiques" would get completely decimated and ignored by people with any kind of subject matter expertise.

And it is exactly this sort of reply by "bitcoin experts" (the kind who claim that paying with BitPay or Coinbase is "paying with bitcoin") that keeps most people away from bitcoin.

Don't be silly professor. Most people have never heard of bitcoin except superficially, nor do they understand it's properties or obvious advantages over fiat currency. I bought a takeaway last night from my blockchain.info wallet using my smartphone via bitpay. It was seamless, instantaneous and flawless. That is typical of the average bitcoin transaction in the future.

[mmitech]

These sort of people would never dare post in such an area, because the opposition to their tired unsophisticated "critiques" would get completely decimated and ignored by people with any kind of subject matter expertise.

don't worry about the other sub-forum, because unlike this sub-forum, people there are aware of these challenges and acknowledge them, and most of them are fairly objective and not a cultist blind speculator like you, I would like to add that most of people there come from IT careers, people that can drive their own dreams, not like some of the speculators here who trash everyone just because they didn't achieve anything in their lives so they count on Bitcoin as their only and last hope.

[ShroomsKit]

This place would be so much better if everyone would just stop quoting idiot stolfi.
It's amazing you guys still don't get it. This isn't about Bitcoin. This is about him getting attention. All you are doing is feeding his need for attention. He will keep saying the opposite of what you say just to get attention.
Why don't you people realize this?
If this thread would be closed he would find another high traffic thread about a much talked about subject. He will read it and then start posting in a way that will make a lot of people reply to him. This can be a forum about candy, seals or trees. He doesn't care. He is obsessed with getting attention and you are giving it to him.

[mmitech]

These sort of people would never dare post in such an area, because the opposition to their tired unsophisticated "critiques" would get completely decimated and ignored by people with any kind of subject matter expertise.

And it is exactly this sort of reply by "bitcoin experts" (the kind who claim that paying with BitPay or Coinbase is "paying with bitcoin") that keeps most people away from bitcoin.

Don't be silly professor. Most people have never heard of bitcoin except superficially, nor do they understand it's properties or obvious advantages over fiat currency. I bought a takeaway last night from my blockchain.info wallet using my smartphone via bitpay. It was seamless, instantaneous and flawless. That is typical of the average bitcoin transaction in the future.

this is not an argument for "Bitcoin is better than Fiat", last time I used my paypal it was as fast or faster than you described, in fact today I paid for my groceries with my bank issued debit card and it was as simple and fast transaction as it would get.

when Bitcoin becomes that simple and easy and safe and secure and less volatile, then and only then it can get mass adopted and be praised by the average Joe.... and yes I am aware of all what Bitcoins offer, but we are still in Beta and it is still not worth risking too much of money.

[Richy_T]

wtf is taking so long for my fiat transfer 

[Richy_T]

Shell shock?

a general bug they found on linux's bash allowing hackers to run commands remotely. no reported comparisons as of yet, bash getting patched.

Also on Windows. Though it's likely to be installed by default on Linux.

Oh, MacOS is affected too.

And there are other Unixes and Unix clones.

[Torque]

This place would be so much better if everyone would just stop quoting idiot stolfi.
It's amazing you guys still don't get it. This isn't about Bitcoin. This is about him getting attention. All you are doing is feeding his need for attention. He will keep saying the opposite of what you say just to get attention.
Why don't you people realize this?
If this thread would be closed he would find another high traffic thread about a much talked about subject. He will read it and then start posting in a way that will make a lot of people reply to him. This can be a forum about candy, seals or trees. He doesn't care. He is obsessed with getting attention and you are giving it to him.

Actually he's a paid troll.  He's paid to be here.  As I'm sure there are others here as well... starting to think mmitech is a paid troll too, the way he blathers on and on ad nauseum...

[adamstgBit]

http://youtu.be/zev2nsVS7M0?t=16m30s

[fonzie]

I would pay money if people stop quoting the troll shroomskit.

[Torque]

I would pay money if people stop quoting the troll shroomskit fonzie.

FTFY

[adamstgBit]

relax people...

[ShroomsKit]

This place would be so much better if everyone would just stop quoting idiot stolfi.
It's amazing you guys still don't get it. This isn't about Bitcoin. This is about him getting attention. All you are doing is feeding his need for attention. He will keep saying the opposite of what you say just to get attention.
Why don't you people realize this?
If this thread would be closed he would find another high traffic thread about a much talked about subject. He will read it and then start posting in a way that will make a lot of people reply to him. This can be a forum about candy, seals or trees. He doesn't care. He is obsessed with getting attention and you are giving it to him.

Actually he's a paid troll.  He's paid to be here.

Why you think so?
To me he seems to enjoy all the attention way too much. He has all the signs of a narcissist. He would do this shit for free, i'm sure of that. Even if he is paid it's still 100% his own behaviour and it will only stop if everyone here would stop taking the bait.
There is no point in argueing with the idiot. No matter what you say, he will say the opposite just to get another reaction out of you. It isn't about the subject for him. It's about him.
Stop feeding him.

[mmitech]

This place would be so much better if everyone would just stop quoting idiot stolfi.
It's amazing you guys still don't get it. This isn't about Bitcoin. This is about him getting attention. All you are doing is feeding his need for attention. He will keep saying the opposite of what you say just to get attention.
Why don't you people realize this?
If this thread would be closed he would find another high traffic thread about a much talked about subject. He will read it and then start posting in a way that will make a lot of people reply to him. This can be a forum about candy, seals or trees. He doesn't care. He is obsessed with getting attention and you are giving it to him.

Actually he's a paid troll.  He's paid to be here.  As I'm sure there are others here as well... starting to think mmitech is a paid troll too, the way he blathers on and on ad nauseum...

Well unlike most of idiots who talk about me being a troll, I actually owned Bitcoin and I actually made good profits and that was achieved by using so commonsense and objectivity.

I am not a Bitcoin die hard cultist and if Bitcoin would crash down and burn that wouldn't change my life style allot... I have a profession that I can start using again anytime, I was(am) a successful engineer even before I learned about Bitcoin.

[JayJuanGee]

aww someone deleted my blood bath post

i guess we are in the stage of denial.

>10% drop coming  soon.

*edit: so much for free speech, fascist wankers

1st:  you gotta admit that the bloodbath pic was pretty gory and likely beyond acceptable

2nd:  drop in price is NOT inevitable and likely does NOT rise to the level of a "blood bath"

3rd:  there is no such thing as free speech on a private forum... (so you likely misunderstand the concept, at least in the legal sense)

[hmmmstrange]

Two more:
9- The average wait time for 1 confirmation is about 10 minutes; and, in a significant fraction of cases, can be 30 minutes or more.  That is too much even for internet payments, and is unacceptable for shopping at brick-and-mortar stores.  (In contrast, verification and payment with a chip-enabled credit card, which is the standard here in Brazil, takes less than 1 minute.)

10- There is no way to correct mistakes (like sending bitcoins to the wrong address) or to recover stolen coins.

There is also the question of security against theft, but I am tired of arguing the obvious there... 

As to 9:
Why do you spew this garbage? You know damn well that the first confirmation is instant.

The average wait time for the first confirmation is less then 1 second. This instant confirmation is checked by 1000's of computers verifying that the transaction is valid. An invalid transaction will not be propagated by the nodes. This instant confirmation is much better then the chip card because the chip card transaction can be reversed for 30 days. Even bank transfers can be reversed within 14 days with no hassles and up to 30 days.

There is a reason that large sales in the real world use 30 day escrows, ie buying a house. With bitcoin you would get the same 30 day escrow safety within an hour.

[JorgeStolfi]

I bought a takeaway last night from my blockchain.info wallet using my smartphone via bitpay. It was seamless, instantaneous and flawless. That is typical of the average bitcoin transaction in the future.

To be precise, you actually bought the takeaway with dollars that BitPay sent to the merchant, and BitPay will later recover those dollars by selling the bitcoins that you sent to BitPay.  How does Bitpay know that you are not double spending your bitcoins?

[Torque]

This place would be so much better if everyone would just stop quoting idiot stolfi.
It's amazing you guys still don't get it. This isn't about Bitcoin. This is about him getting attention. All you are doing is feeding his need for attention. He will keep saying the opposite of what you say just to get attention.
Why don't you people realize this?
If this thread would be closed he would find another high traffic thread about a much talked about subject. He will read it and then start posting in a way that will make a lot of people reply to him. This can be a forum about candy, seals or trees. He doesn't care. He is obsessed with getting attention and you are giving it to him.

Actually he's a paid troll.  He's paid to be here.  As I'm sure there are others here as well... starting to think mmitech is a paid troll too, the way he blathers on and on ad nauseum...

Well unlike most of idiots who talk about me being a troll, I actually owned Bitcoin and I actually made good profits and that was achieved by using so commonsense and objectivity.

I am not a Bitcoin die hard cultist and if Bitcoin would crash down and burn that wouldn't change my life style allot... I have a profession that I can start using again anytime, I was(am) a successful engineer even before I know about Bitcoin.

You're really going to come on a pro-bitcoin forum, drag out 4 years old, tired counter-arguments about how Bitcoin is doomed to fail and here are the valid reasons, pat yourself on the back and tell everyone else they lack the objective thinking of your brilliant mind??

That sir, is the purest definition of TROLL that I can think of.

ALL HAIL THE BRILLIANCE OF MMITECH!

[mmitech]

Two more:
9- The average wait time for 1 confirmation is about 10 minutes; and, in a significant fraction of cases, can be 30 minutes or more.  That is too much even for internet payments, and is unacceptable for shopping at brick-and-mortar stores.  (In contrast, verification and payment with a chip-enabled credit card, which is the standard here in Brazil, takes less than 1 minute.)

10- There is no way to correct mistakes (like sending bitcoins to the wrong address) or to recover stolen coins.

There is also the question of security against theft, but I am tired of arguing the obvious there... 

As to 9:
Why do you spew this garbage? You know damn well that the first confirmation is instant.

The average wait time for the first confirmation is less then 1 second. This instant confirmation is checked by 1000's of computers verifying that the transaction is valid. An invalid transaction will not be propagated by the nodes. This instant confirmation is much better then the chip card because the chip card transaction can be reversed for 30 days. Even bank transfers can be reversed within 14 days with no hassles and up to 30 days.

There is a reason that large sales in the real world use 30 day escrows, ie buying a house. With bitcoin you would get the same 30 day escrow safety within an hour.

Holy fuck....are you kidding ? a first confirmation is when your Transaction is included into a block, a block needs to be solved first, and incoming unconfirmed transaction is one thing and a confirmed transaction is another thing. I cant believe you just said that.

[JayJuanGee]

...
if the technical part of Bitcoin stay as it is today, then simply Bitcoin wont survive for 20 years... and this is for sure.

You are bullish, in this case I'll only give it 4 - 5 years.

apart from the obvious answer to extend functionality would any of you care to elaborate why.
And please give concrete technical reasons

Neither of these guys are going to give you anything concrete.. beyond spreading some FUD - possibly some other bear would chime in, but few who participate in this thread have any decent explanation(s).. probably need to ask a bull in order to get a more accurate assessment.