Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Richy_T]

...
Again I ask: why should that have anything to do with the price? The price of Euro's doesn't drop if some credit card details are leaked or some bank accounts fished.

Because your credit card company guarantees your CC account.  It gets hacked, you lose nothing.  Bitcoin gets hacked?  A different story

So the credit card companies losing money on this is a much much better reason for the price of the currency to drop than the loss of money for some (foolish) consumers.

The CC companies lose money? LOL. You don't think they got rich from writing checks, do you?

[wachtwoord]

...
Again I ask: why should that have anything to do with the price? The price of Euro's doesn't drop if some credit card details are leaked or some bank accounts fished.

Because your credit card company guarantees your CC account.  It gets hacked, you lose nothing.  Bitcoin gets hacked?  A different story

So the credit card companies losing money on this is a much much better reason for the price of the currency to drop than the loss of money for some (foolish) consumers.

The CC companies lose money? LOL. You don't think they got rich from writing checks, do you?

They lose money on a specific thing. On aggregate they are making vast profits of course.

[mmitech]

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you are now just being a fucking moron, if those issues wont be fixed Bitcoin is not going to survive 20 years and neither will self distract in case of mass adoption..... these were my exact words, so please stop twisting them, period.

You and your camel What area of engineering btw, IT related?

Shows how bad this place has got when a troll is indistinguishable from a realist, by 20 years there will be so many potential improvements to crypto's that Bitcoin would likely need a complete rewrite at some stage (then the BS artists can do the whole "Bitcoin 2.0" thing again). Another crypto could take over at that stage unless it gets like email and too many people depending on it but more likely the trustless transfer of ownership thing will matter more than exchange rates before then.

yep, IT...I always forget that I am just posting wrong things in the wrong section of the forum... I shouldn't bother so much...  

[JayJuanGee]

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if the technical part of Bitcoin stay as it is today, then simply Bitcoin wont survive for 20 years... and this is for sure.

You are bullish, in this case I'll only give it 4 - 5 years.

apart from the obvious answer to extend functionality would any of you care to elaborate why.
And please give concrete technical reasons

Even if you cant figure for your self half of the challenges Bitcoin is facing, there is a wiki for that... take some time and read about it here  


Edit: for some reason they didn't include the Block size limit and blockchain size problem (could be in the future)

At least you are providing some support for your rationale, this time, rather than just spreading unsubstantiated FUD.    I am NOT inclined to read through that wiki in detail, but just looking at the topics, I see that they seem to be mostly technical and there may be some additional reasons for bitcoin's potential failure that is NOT explored, including political regulation / hostility and market manipulation.

[adamstgBit]

some people just have no balls...

[JorgeStolfi]

The CC companies lose money? LOL. You don't think they got rich from writing checks, do you?

They lose money on a specific thing. On aggregate they are making vast profits of course.

Some of the fees they charge are spent in refunding and fighting CC fraud, but it is actually very little (0.7% of the total transaction volume, IIRC). As an oligopoly (cartel) they of course make big profits anyway. 

[adamstgBit]

some people just have no balls...

Bitchick?

she has more balls then some grown men. it seems.
 

[Richy_T]

They lose money on a specific thing. On aggregate they are making vast profits of course.

Often not even then. In many cases, unauthorized charges are borne by the merchant. This is one more reason Bitcoin should be appealing to them.

[Richy_T]

....
you are now just being a fucking moron, if those issues wont be fixed Bitcoin is not going to survive 20 years and neither will self distract in case of mass adoption..... these were my exact words, so please stop twisting them, period.

You and your camel What area of engineering btw, IT related?

Ironically, it was a train engineer. Choo choo!

[tarmi]

it means the mission to infest bitcointalk and sway it into a bitcoin-negative site is working ... Jorge and the team will get their bonuses from Uncle Sam

I wonder why it turns out this way. Initially it was such a quality forum.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

Interesting, thanks. Nothing new though, disinformation is all through history. The Luddite movement is a good example, as a movement the Luddites had nothing against technology, their fight was with the owners and that bit of disinformation has lasted over 200 years.

Yesterday I read an article about the connection between Roswell and the current bear market. I will search for the source, it's really interesting.

As an insider i can tell you that JP Morgan pays about 4000$ a month if you provide at least 10 semi quality bearish manipulation posts per day on BCT.

where can I join you?

btw, all btct bulls selling into 400 is a good buy sign in my book.

[JayJuanGee]

well I think most of you Bitcoin cultists refuse to be objective, and considering the fact that most of you call Bitcoin the most important innovation after internet, I would just like to point out that TCP/IP protocol didn't change much in a decade or so.... and no, Google is very very bad example in this case, we are talking about protocols that we can build on..

But this is where you are mistaken. Bitcoin is a protocol, that is true. Yet you fail to understand what it does.

Bitcoin forms probabilistic consensus on a ledger of units where ownership is proven through digital signatures.
The value lies in the ledger and that consensus is formed on it. Not on the concrete protocol specification

See, I know exactly what is Bitcoin, and everything I wrote above has a simple yet a deep meaning to it, now if you fail to see that, this simply means that you are way too much invested (blindly invested) into Bitcoin, and I honestly have no energy to argue or explain that to you.

It is my opinion on this matter, consider me wrong with the possibility of being right, also all you said above doesn't argue or solve the real known issues, so I don't see any value with arguing further with you.

You may be correct in the end that bitcoin has various flaws that cannot be overcome, and maybe you need NOT attempt to articulate your concerns to convince others, especially in a public forum like this.

Your problem, even in the above post, is your patronizing tone to suggest that you have higher knowledge, insight and vision than others, which is frequently coupled with your attempts to persuade others to follow in your direction.  When you seem to be striving to get others to follow, then that requires more explanatory obligations, IMHBO.

[Tzupy]

.....
As an insider i can tell you that JP Morgan pays about 4000$ a month if you provide at least 10 semi quality bearish manipulation posts per day on BCT.
.....

Really, where can I sign? I'm currently doing this (well, not 10 per day ) for free.

[DubFX]

That paypal news made only few hours pump and we were back as low as 396 today, what's up why is it loosing value was it really overvalued?

[adamstgBit]

That paypal news made only few hours pump and we were back as low as 396 today, what's up why is it loosing value was it really overvalued?

who knows, its pure madness out there, pure madness i tell you!

[fonzie]

Huobi has some serious buy walls.

[JayJuanGee]

ok you've got my intention there, this suggest that you have most of the issues figured out, how do you think we will solve:
1-The Block size limit when the number of transaction/minute is 100 times higher than today.
2-The block chain size when it exceeds 200GB or 1TB ? most users or services will have to use clusters of storage, if the adoption rate picks up this has to be fixed really fast.
3-The energy waste, it has been known that when the price goes up mining becomes more profitable and more resources are brought online...resources that most of us consider wasted, as of today the hashrate is more that 250 Petahash/s, assuming that the worst chip on the network consume 0.5w/ghs (which is way too optimistic) this means that at this point miners consume way more than 125 hourly Megawatts... just FYI a typical nuclear plant produce from 500-2000 hourly Megawatts.
4-DDOS attacks: when Bitcoin become bigger, there will be Big services that run the Bitcoind in order to offer their services, organized groups can run denial of service attacks against these services, you can read more about how they can do it in that wiki I provided before.
5-Malleability issue, and don't tell me it is not an issue, because it really is, and it is not fixed yet, they just found some work around it.
6-Double Spending, even if you don't have 51% of the network you can perform double spending with as little as 25% of the network,
7- The 51% attack, we all know what it is, it is achievable, any government can achieve it if they want to kill Bitcoin, even at this point.
8-man in the middle or packet sniffing, also described in that wiki.
There many more issues, but these are the one that concerns me for now. now I would like to hear your solutions.

Two more:
9- The average wait time for 1 confirmation is about 10 minutes; and, in a significant fraction of cases, can be 30 minutes or more.  That is too much even for internet payments, and is unacceptable for shopping at brick-and-mortar stores.  (In contrast, verification and payment with a chip-enabled credit card, which is the standard here in Brazil, takes less than 1 minute.)

10- There is no way to correct mistakes (like sending bitcoins to the wrong address) or to recover stolen coins.

There is also the question of security against theft, but I am tired of arguing the obvious there...  

If you really care about the answer to questions such as these, you should probably ask in the 'Development & Technical Discussion' forum.  The people in there can answer your questions handily, and very few of them read this thread, I think.

The big assumption is that these posters want a real discussion (they really do NOT,but they want to spread FUDD) .

Additionally, does sound like a topic for a different thread - however, we do get into quite a variety in this thread - at least on a more superficial level.

[DubFX]

That paypal news made only few hours pump and we were back as low as 396 today, what's up why is it loosing value was it really overvalued?

who knows, its pure madness out there, pure madness i tell you!

I gotta agree on that i didn't think that we would hit sub 400 again.

[wachtwoord]

.....
As an insider i can tell you that JP Morgan pays about 4000$ a month if you provide at least 10 semi quality bearish manipulation posts per day on BCT.
.....

Really, where can I sign? I'm currently doing this (well, not 10 per day ) for free.

I might be a bull but I'll join this too. I think because I swing for the other side I'll be able to provide a unique perspective

[adamstgBit]

.....
As an insider i can tell you that JP Morgan pays about 4000$ a month if you provide at least 10 semi quality bearish manipulation posts per day on BCT.
.....

Really, where can I sign? I'm currently doing this (well, not 10 per day ) for free.

I might be a bull but I'll join this too. I think because I swing for the other side I'll be able to provide a unique perspective

4000$/month

for spreading FUD everyone already knows over and over

count me in JPM

[JayJuanGee]

--snip--

Amusing that you say bitcoin will fail yet assume the transaction volume goes up 100 times

Don't be ignorant, when did I say Bitcoin will fail ? I said IF these issues wont be fixed then Bitcoin wont survive 20 years, and I added that TCP/IP didn't have much changes in the protocol over a decade, all you wrote above is still theoretically right, but when you get a practical solution that can be implemented we can discuss things further.

and no, I don't think Bitcoin is the greatest thing after internet... this is an insult for all the huge innovators and innovations that took place the last 20 years.

well done snipping my reply out of context as I immediately followed with a statement of you using the "if it doesn't change in 20 years" excuse.
So your argument boils down to "There are potential scalability and security issues if bitcoin is not maintained for 20 years"

IPv4 will/is running out of address space. So should I say it is a failed protocol? Should I call it useless? That issue was known for a long time.
Or even more to the point. Do the address space limitations of IPv4 directly prevent you from writing witty comments in this forum? (assuming you or your provider still run on it)
The same goes for the bitcoin protocol. Absolutely essential changes will come when needed, more is bonus.

I asked you why you believe that technically bitcoin is so flawed that it simply can't last 20 years.
The issues you posted are possible problems that may or may not be relevant.
To make such a definitive claim I would have liked to hear something along the lines of "at difficulty x the nonce is too small to guarantee that a solution can be found" (btw this is a real possibility)
That would be a real issue.

[edit] just to clarify : the nonce is 4 bytes, the block hash 32. You can vary other things like the timestamp but unless you can ensure that you have at least 32 bytes to modify you may not find a solution

Btw I agree with you that bitcoin is not the greatest thing after the internet but I think it is quite significant. Some people get carried away with their enthusiasm.

It remains too early to determine for sure, but bitcoin carries a lot of very interesting innovations that have never been implemented in such a package  - accordingly bitcoin does appear to be amongst the greatest inventions since the invention of the internet (by Al Gore).