Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[NotLambchop]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

[Richy_T]

And fees are not yet mandatory, is that correct?  

Nor should they be. The market should decide.

thought it was the miners (not the market) that could choose to deal with transactions that have fees prioritarily

Yes. In this case, the miners are part of the market.

[inca]

How is it that such stupid people have so much money to get rid of?

It is a great graph. But more important in my view is money velocity (cratering) and total credit market debt. When monetary velocity picks up the inflation is going to be something epic.

[Richy_T]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

[hdbuck]

And fees are not yet mandatory, is that correct?  

Nor should they be. The market should decide.

thought it was the miners (not the market) that could choose to deal with transactions that have fees prioritarily

Yes. In this case, the miners are part of the market.

In my understanding, miners are above the market. They are somehow the new Moneylords. But eh, as long as bitcoin rise..

How is it that such stupid people have so much money to get rid of?

[NotLambchop]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart? 

[Richy_T]

In my understanding, miners are above the market. They are somehow the new Moneylords. But eh, as long as bitcoin rise..

Users place a transaction on the network, without or with a fee (of whatever value), miners can choose whether to process that transaction (and obtain the fee) or not. Competition should ensure that the fee is kept as low as reasonably possible (miner collusion would be quite hard to orchestrate and barrier to entry is fairly low due to lack of regulation)

Currently, miners are mostly mining for the block reward which dwarfs transaction fees but as that goes away, properly providing a transaction fee will become more important

[Richy_T]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart? 

That there is an oversupply of dirty fiat and financial instruments are in a bubble. I was simply answering hdbuck's question of where people are getting all this money from.

[inca]

How is it that such stupid people have so much money to get rid of?

It is a great graph. But more important in my view is money velocity (cratering) and total credit market debt. When monetary velocity picks up the inflation is going to be something epic.

Will this actually happen?? Isn't it more of a stretched or drawn out proccess?

Basically negative real interest rates is devaluing Western currency annually. The credit market needs money to become devalued so a new credit cycle can blast off again (people borrowing). All those excess dollars have been used to buy government debt and increase the money supply or have been given to private banks in exchange for worthless assets. That money isn't moving because people hoard in a depression/recession. Once it starts moving inflation is inevitable. Timing is another matter.

Oh and if they turn off the QE programs privately then the markets all crash, asset prices crater and rates rise, causing an economic catastrophe. So they are trying to gradually get out of the markets by tapering. Basically the central banks in preventing a global depression have dislocated markets from true price discovery and noone knows what anything is really worth. But everyone knows it is all being held up by money printing. True markets and capitalism are currently dead. That is why I think bitcoin is so interesting.

[hdbuck]

In my understanding, miners are above the market. They are somehow the new Moneylords. But eh, as long as bitcoin rise..

Users place a transaction on the network, without or with a fee (of whatever value), miners can choose whether to process that transaction (and obtain the fee) or not. Competition should ensure that the fee is kept as low as reasonably possible (miner collusion would be quite hard to orchestrate and barrier to entry is fairly low due to lack of regulation)

Currently, miners are mostly mining for the block reward which dwarfs transaction fees but as that goes away, properly providing a transaction fee will become more important

Exactly, but as the large mining ops will also strenghten their position, centralizing the power of the network into a handful number of private corps (Bitfury, KNC, et al), they could eventually agree on a minimum fee, excluding other types of transactions, and then reajust such fee according to the margin they would aim.

[NotLambchop]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart?  

That there is an oversupply of dirty fiat and financial instruments are in a bubble. I was simply answering hdbuck's question of where people are getting all this money from.

"So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking... "

If BTC $ price doubles while the the dollar's value falls by more than 50%, BTC's actual value has fallen.

Now you know.

[inca]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart?  

That there is an oversupply of dirty fiat and financial instruments are in a bubble. I was simply answering hdbuck's question of where people are getting all this money from.

"So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking... "

If BTC $ price doubles while the the dollar's value falls by more than 50%, BTC's actual value has fallen.

Now you know.

Stop being naughty. Narrow money is not the value of the dollar!

[NotLambchop]

^
That brings us back to "What are you suggesting by posting that chart?"

[inca]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart?  

That there is an oversupply of dirty fiat and financial instruments are in a bubble. I was simply answering hdbuck's question of where people are getting all this money from.

"So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking... "

If BTC $ price doubles while the the dollar's value falls by more than 50%, BTC's actual value has fallen.

Now you know.

Stop being naughty. Narrow money is not the value of the dollar!

That brings us back to "What are you suggesting by posting that chart?"

Yes but it gets all complicated when you add credit and base money together

[Richy_T]

Exactly, but as the large mining ops will also strenghten their position, centralizing the power of the network into a handful number of private corps (Bitfury, KNC, et al), they could eventually agree on a minimum fee, excluding other types of transactions, and then reajust such fee according to the margin they would aim.

They could. And then someone could come in and eat their lunch since one doesn't have to go begging (and bribing) to the government to obtain a license to mine.

[NotLambchop]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart?  

That there is an oversupply of dirty fiat and financial instruments are in a bubble. I was simply answering hdbuck's question of where people are getting all this money from.

"So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking... "

If BTC $ price doubles while the the dollar's value falls by more than 50%, BTC's actual value has fallen.

Now you know.

Stop being naughty. Narrow money is not the value of the dollar!

That brings us back to "What are you suggesting by posting that chart?"

Yes but it gets all complicated when you add credit and base money together

The question stands:  What was the intended message of that chart, beyond "oooh, scary!"?

[inca]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart?  

That there is an oversupply of dirty fiat and financial instruments are in a bubble. I was simply answering hdbuck's question of where people are getting all this money from.

"So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking... "

If BTC $ price doubles while the the dollar's value falls by more than 50%, BTC's actual value has fallen.

Now you know.

Stop being naughty. Narrow money is not the value of the dollar!

That brings us back to "What are you suggesting by posting that chart?"

Yes but it gets all complicated when you add credit and base money together

The question stands:  What was the intended message of that chart, beyond "oooh, scary!"?

I didnt post it. But try comparing it a chart of bitcoin issuance from 2009 to 2140

[Richy_T]

@Richy_T:
Whoa.  So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking...  Nice to know.

I know you're trolling but I hope others can see how disconnected from logic and mathematics that statement is.

What are you suggesting by posting that chart?  

That there is an oversupply of dirty fiat and financial instruments are in a bubble. I was simply answering hdbuck's question of where people are getting all this money from.

"So even when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking... "

If BTC $ price doubles while the the dollar's value falls by more than 50%, BTC's actual value has fallen.

Now you know.

Yes. But if BTC's price goes up by 10% and the dollar falls by 5%, you're still ahead. And if BTC's price goes up by 5% and the dollar falls by 10%, that would not even be close to "tanking" so

"when BTC dollar price goes up, its actual value is still tanking"

is the usual lie.

[hdbuck]

Exactly, but as the large mining ops will also strenghten their position, centralizing the power of the network into a handful number of private corps (Bitfury, KNC, et al), they could eventually agree on a minimum fee, excluding other types of transactions, and then reajust such fee according to the margin they would aim.

They could. And then someone could come in and eat their lunch since one doesn't have to go begging (and bribing) to the government to obtain a license to mine.

hm alright i guess. havent though of it because i expect the amount of money to catch up with these corps would be just phenomenal. but eh, that QE chart surely helps to put things in perspective. ^^