Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[NotLambchop]

The consumer won't even know they're using it. Gateways like Stripe, Apple Pay, Transferwise, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc will take care of that for them. The consumer will merely make payments like they always have - except at a fraction of the cost.

A fair point, but one that still relies on for-profit groups with self-serving interests.

Sorry missed that you had replied. Yes it does rely. It has to rely for a time. There's no way the finance sector is going to dive head-first into the deep-end of fully p2p finance. There will be a transition period where centralised institutions act as gateways to the decentralised network. Those tech savvy enough will be the only niche complete p2pers. However, once the infrastructure becomes developed enough, we won't even need gateways.

...At that point, the for-profit gateways will politely step out of the way & utopia will ensue.

[marcelus]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

Yea, except this will take us back to the wild west ages where everyone fucks everyone and where most of the opportunities are for the elites while the majority slave or barely survive in an unfair community, which leads people to rise against the CHAOS and enforce governments and laws and constitutions... you know the same circle all over again.

Libertarians usually talk about their ideas of a communities without considering history of failed experiences.... you cant give too much freedom when most of the opinions varies, you have to enforce some boundaries,  how would a libertarian free of government community even agree on priorities and necessities when the human nature is to fight and differ on stupid matters.... we see that kind conflicts all around the world.

You're mistaking a revolution against inefficient centralised institutions with one against law and order.

[marcelus]

The consumer won't even know they're using it. Gateways like Stripe, Apple Pay, Transferwise, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc will take care of that for them. The consumer will merely make payments like they always have - except at a fraction of the cost.

A fair point, but one that still relies on for-profit groups with self-serving interests.

Sorry missed that you had replied. Yes it does rely. It has to rely for a time. There's no way the finance sector is going to dive head-first into the deep-end of fully p2p finance. There will be a transition period where centralised institutions act as gateways to the decentralised network. Those tech savvy enough will be the only niche complete p2pers. However, once the infrastructure becomes developed enough, we won't even need gateways.

...At that point, the for-profit gateways will politely step out of the way & utopia will ensue.

No, they will simply just not be used. Like any business that runs its course. Is that so hard to grasp?

[superresistant]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits^{[citation needed].
...}

FTFY
*If you are suggesting some sort of free-form, ungoverned anarcho-capitalist society, there are no historical examples that survived for a meaningful length of time.

Haha bulshit.
Centralized-obese-governments are a very recent invention that is not gonna last.
99.99% of human History is without it.

Yeah, if you start counting from the Big Bang. 
>>>/pol/

The Gold standard was eventually abandoned in 1971.
Deregulation and globalisation : 80s - 90s
Since, the banking system is backed by centralized-obese-governments which is the reason it exist.

So what 20-30 years ? Wow that's all human History !

[NotLambchop]

The consumer won't even know they're using it. Gateways like Stripe, Apple Pay, Transferwise, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc will take care of that for them. The consumer will merely make payments like they always have - except at a fraction of the cost.

A fair point, but one that still relies on for-profit groups with self-serving interests.

Sorry missed that you had replied. Yes it does rely. It has to rely for a time. There's no way the finance sector is going to dive head-first into the deep-end of fully p2p finance. There will be a transition period where centralised institutions act as gateways to the decentralised network. Those tech savvy enough will be the only niche complete p2pers. However, once the infrastructure becomes developed enough, we won't even need gateways.

...At that point, the for-profit gateways will politely step out of the way & utopia will ensue.

No, they will simply just not be used. Like any business that runs its course. Is that so hard to grasp?

Why and how will this transition take place?  Consumers have grown to trust these payment services, not Bitcoin.

[touhonoob]

What is Payza? And what demographic uses it?

It supports 100+ countries
https://www.payza.com/local-payment-options

[cbeast]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

Yea, except this will take us back to the wild west ages where everyone fucks everyone and where most of the opportunities are for the elites while the majority slave or barely survive in an unfair community, which leads people to rise against the CHAOS and enforce governments and laws and constitutions... you know the same circle all over again.

Libertarians usually talk about their ideas of a communities without considering history of failed experiences.... you cant give too much freedom when most of the opinions varies, you have to enforce some boundaries,  how would a libertarian free of government community even agree on priorities and necessities when the human nature is to fight and differ on stupid matters.... we see that kind conflicts all around the world.

I used to think like you when I believed in crystal balls. Then I grew a pair. Brave New Worlds have been emerging from fiction into reality. There's no reason why a more libertarian world cannot emerge through complex systems. The reason they have never existed is because society wasn't ready for it. It still won't be exactly how Ayn Rand pictured it or even motivated the same way. There is a seed of merit in her claims, but it will take enormous resource management efficiency technology to make it work.

[NotLambchop]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits^{[citation needed].
...}

FTFY
*If you are suggesting some sort of free-form, ungoverned anarcho-capitalist society, there are no historical examples that survived for a meaningful length of time.

Haha bulshit.
Centralized-obese-governments are a very recent invention that is not gonna last.
99.99% of human History is without it.

Yeah, if you start counting from the Big Bang.  
>>>/pol/

The Gold standard was eventually abandoned in 1971.
Deregulation and globalisation : 80s - 90s
Since, the banking system is baked by centralized-obese-governments which is the reason it exist.

So what 20-30 years ? Wow that's all human History !

>Lists of things having nothing to do with anarchy<->governed society debate.

You realize we had governments and laws and consumer protection before 1971, right?  How old r u?

[marcelus]

The consumer won't even know they're using it. Gateways like Stripe, Apple Pay, Transferwise, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc will take care of that for them. The consumer will merely make payments like they always have - except at a fraction of the cost.

A fair point, but one that still relies on for-profit groups with self-serving interests.

Sorry missed that you had replied. Yes it does rely. It has to rely for a time. There's no way the finance sector is going to dive head-first into the deep-end of fully p2p finance. There will be a transition period where centralised institutions act as gateways to the decentralised network. Those tech savvy enough will be the only niche complete p2pers. However, once the infrastructure becomes developed enough, we won't even need gateways.

...At that point, the for-profit gateways will politely step out of the way & utopia will ensue.

No, they will simply just not be used. Like any business that runs its course. Is that so hard to grasp?

Why and how will this transition take place?  Consumers have grown to trust these payment services, not Bitcoin.

Yes. Again, that's why I said there will be a transition period for 15 years or so. Once more, is it really that hard to grasp?

1. Bitcoin comes along - offers borderless, frictionless, secure transactions at almost zero cost.
2. Financial institutions utilise the tech and pass on the operational savings to their customers.
3. All the while synthetic (or real world asset-backed) non-volatile assets are created on blockchains, savings wallets for insurance against theft, etc, etc, etc
4. One day the consumer has enough easy-to-use tools in his box to not feel the need to use any third party intermediary.

QED

[superresistant]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.
Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.
In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

Yea, except this will take us back to the wild west ages where everyone fucks everyone and where most of the opportunities are for the elites while the majority slave or barely survive in an unfair community, which leads people to rise against the CHAOS and enforce governments and laws and constitutions... you know the same circle all over again.
Libertarians usually talk about their ideas of a communities without considering history of failed experiences.... you cant give too much freedom when most of the opinions varies, you have to enforce some boundaries,  how would a libertarian free of government community even agree on priorities and necessities when the human nature is to fight and differ on stupid matters.... we see that kind conflicts all around the world.

Order is an illusion.
If you believe that banking system backed by centralized-obese-governments bring stability to the world you're a clown.

[octaft]

Please ignore the troll argument and focus on the legitimate one: if you use your credit card, you can name, shame, and still have your money at the end of it.

as more and larger companies adopt bitcoin they will focus on repeat business - not one time scams. Most large companies offer refunds for returned goods or store credits without any complaint. As the number of reputable merchants accepting bitcoin increases the number of "problematic refunds" as a percentage of total transactions will decline. Certainly the economic losses from these types of transactions will be far lower than the economic gains from the reduction in fraud. The volume of transactions involving a disreputable seller is much smaller than the volume of transactions involving a disreputable buyer.
A company I am involved with recently deactivated their credit card processor, they have found this has increased their business via bitcoin and with a corresponding decrease in fraud and time wasted wondering whether that payment/order is real or not this translates into increased efficiency. They are currently debating whether they take credit cards in the future or not, but the time savings are so great from not having to deal with the credit card processor I think they should not bother.

The fact that a company you worked for benefited from switching to bitcoin does not disprove my point that bitcoin is much more beneficial for the merchant than the consumer. I understand that most large companies offer refunds, and most will be legitimate about it and process them, but almost all of those companies will also accept a credit card, so, again, what is the benefit of bitcoin for the consumer over traditional methods?

What you're listing is a bunch of benefits for merchants. The problem is, the benefits to merchants are unimportant in the grand scheme of things, if no consumer thinks it's worth the trouble to buy with bitcoin, I guarantee you those merchants are not going to decline being paid in some other way. It's not the merchant who gets to decide whether to walk away, it's the consumer. If the merchant doesn't want to accept their credit card, they'll just go to the tons of other places that will.

So "problematic refunds" will decline relative to number of transactions over time. Even if I grant you that, they will still exist, and when those "problematic refunds" (aka ripoffs, let's call a spade a spade) do arise, the consumer will be much better protected if they don't use bitcoin. If bitcoin isn't much better than, and in some cases actively worse, than current options, why should consumers be willing to take the plunge and make the change?

tl;dr you don't have to convince the merchants, ultimately you have to convince the consumer.

If it benefits the merchant, prospective entrepreneurs will build infrastructure so that the consumer will find it beneficial to use. Simples.

I'll believe it when I see it, but yes, if there is a convincing way to sway consumers into using bitcoin, THAT'S what you really need. So why is the focus always on the benefits to merchants?

It still won't be exactly how Ayn Rand pictured it or even motivated the same way. There is a seed of merit in her claims, but it will take enormous resource management efficiency technology to make it work.

Not for nothing, but the last time the world listened to a crackpot author on issues that people take seriously, we got Scientology.

[superresistant]

The Gold standard was eventually abandoned in 1971.
Deregulation and globalisation : 80s - 90s
Since, the banking system is baked by centralized-obese-governments which is the reason it exist.
So what 20-30 years ? Wow that's all human History !

>Lists of things having nothing to do with anarchy<->governed society debate.
You realize we had governments and laws and consumer protection before 1971, right?  How old r u?

Money is power.
A government have no power if you separate it from bank and the ability to print infinite money.
A government is not necessarily a bad thing, it becomes a monster only if you give him power.

[NotLambchop]

The consumer won't even know they're using it. Gateways like Stripe, Apple Pay, Transferwise, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc will take care of that for them. The consumer will merely make payments like they always have - except at a fraction of the cost.

A fair point, but one that still relies on for-profit groups with self-serving interests.

Sorry missed that you had replied. Yes it does rely. It has to rely for a time. There's no way the finance sector is going to dive head-first into the deep-end of fully p2p finance. There will be a transition period where centralised institutions act as gateways to the decentralised network. Those tech savvy enough will be the only niche complete p2pers. However, once the infrastructure becomes developed enough, we won't even need gateways.

...At that point, the for-profit gateways will politely step out of the way & utopia will ensue.

No, they will simply just not be used. Like any business that runs its course. Is that so hard to grasp?

Why and how will this transition take place?  Consumers have grown to trust these payment services, not Bitcoin.

Yes. Again, that's why I said there will be a transition period for 15 years or so. Once more, is it really that hard to grasp?

1. Bitcoin comes along - offers borderless, frictionless, secure transactions at almost zero cost.

Bitcoin's transaction costs, if Satoshi's statement that BTC price should tend toward BTC mining costs, is currently ~10% of Bitcoin's market cap.  Imagine if 10% of the world's wealth was destroyed yearly on transaction costs

[snip]
QED

[NotLambchop]

The Gold standard was eventually abandoned in 1971.
Deregulation and globalisation : 80s - 90s
Since, the banking system is baked by centralized-obese-governments which is the reason it exist.
So what 20-30 years ? Wow that's all human History !

>Lists of things having nothing to do with anarchy<->governed society debate.
You realize we had governments and laws and consumer protection before 1971, right?  How old r u?

Money is power.
A government have no power if you separate it from bank and the ability to print infinite money.
A government is not necessarily a bad thing, it becomes a monster only if you give him power.

No, money is money, power is power.  But that's beside the point.  The point is centralized governments, in one form or another, existed throughout human history.  While Anarcho-capitalism remained a fiction.

[touhonoob]

Almost 40% of Americans have never heard of Bitcoin
https://coinforum.ca/discussion/2138/almost-40-of-americans-have-never-heard-of-bitcoin?new=1

[marcelus]

If it benefits the merchant, prospective entrepreneurs will build infrastructure so that the consumer will find it beneficial to use. Simples.

I'll believe it when I see it, but yes, if there is a convincing way to sway consumers into using bitcoin, THAT'S what you really need. So why is the focus always on the benefits to merchants?

We've been seeing it every day for two years. 100s of millions of dollars have been pumped into bitcoin-related startups this year. The Bit License and forthcoming legislation in the UK and Japan, will encourage a flood of more money in as regulatory compliance fears are eased. It won't happen over night, but its happening is an inevitability.

[mmitech]

Laws, regulations, and a mechanism to enforce both are "the fruits of civilized society."

Voluntary free association creates civilization and all it's benefits.

Those benefits are so great that civilization can survive (for a short time) even under the predation of institutionalized violence.

In the end, however, the parasite always grows until it destroys the host civilization.

Yea, except this will take us back to the wild west ages where everyone fucks everyone and where most of the opportunities are for the elites while the majority slave or barely survive in an unfair community, which leads people to rise against the CHAOS and enforce governments and laws and constitutions... you know the same circle all over again.

Libertarians usually talk about their ideas of a communities without considering history of failed experiences.... you cant give too much freedom when most of the opinions varies, you have to enforce some boundaries,  how would a libertarian free of government community even agree on priorities and necessities when the human nature is to fight and differ on stupid matters.... we see that kind conflicts all around the world.

I used to think like you when I believed in crystal balls. Then I grew a pair. Brave New Worlds have been emerging from fiction into reality. There's no reason why a more libertarian world cannot emerge through complex systems. The reason they have never existed is because society wasn't ready for it. It still won't be exactly how Ayn Rand pictured it or even motivated the same way. There is a seed of merit in her claims, but it will take enormous resource management efficiency technology to make it work.

OK, the difference of empires through history is related to the culture and demographic of that population, try the same model of an empire with the same philosophy but on different demographic and you will simply fail... the problem of libertarians is that you compare the whole population/humanity to one ideal, that if pushed certain ideas upon in a certain way it will work, but at the end of the day you ignore the fact that  people differ, from the way they think, to their traditions, to their culture, to their color, to their.... this is why states and borders exist, and some kind of enforced regulation has to exist so people can live with each other.

[marcelus]

Bitcoin's transaction costs, if Satoshi's statement that BTC price should tend toward BTC mining costs, is currently ~10% of Bitcoin's market cap.  Imagine if 10% of the world's wealth was destroyed yearly on transaction costs

Destroyed. LOL.

[mmitech]

Order is an illusion.
If you believe that banking system backed by centralized-obese-governments bring stability to the world you're a clown.

The clown is the one who mixes two different issues, an obese governments is not the same as a missing one.... I am not endorsing these kinds of governments, but I believe in other ways of change.

[Richy_T]

OK, the difference of empires through history is related to the culture and demographic of that population, try the same model of an empire with the same philosophy but on different demographic and you will simply fail... the problem of libertarians is that you compare the whole population/humanity to one ideal, that if pushed certain ideas upon in a certain way it will work, but at the end of the day you ignore the fact that  people differ, from the way they think, to their traditions, to their culture, to their color, to their.... this is why states and borders exist, and some kind of enforced regulation has to exist so people can live with each other.