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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26390027 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
600watt
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November 15, 2014, 06:13:13 PM

btc-doomsday trollcunts are taking over this thread.

bullish.
Fatman3001
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November 15, 2014, 06:14:17 PM

I fail to see how $370 is not a great price right now

Sure, we were at $360 2 days ago but we've had retracements before we got there and it really looks like we are entering a bull market right now.

Why is nobody buying Huh

They bought up to $370, then we took a stroll down "manipulation alley" and now people are wondering where the price ought to be. If they think it should have risen a bit since the start of the "rally" the price will push up to $390-$400 and slowly climb from there. If the roller coaster scared off enough people we will see stagnation/decline. These kinds of price movements are not very helpful with regards to Bitcoin adoption so whatever happens will probably still be speculator driven. What I want to see is an adoption wave but there are obviously people out there who have no interest in this happening.
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November 15, 2014, 06:26:51 PM

...but this, this is looking like a disaster in the making.

Well, not to all of us.  To my less fortunate friends:

dinofelis
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November 15, 2014, 06:28:34 PM

In a steady-state system, the price of a monetary asset is given by the "quantity theory of money", which states that:

P x Q = M x V, where

P is the price of the goods, Q is the amount of goods bought by the monetary asset, M is the amount of monetary asset in circulation, and V is the average velocity (the number of times per year that a given bitcoin is used to buy something).
Dump the velocity. and you are good to go. It has to be liquid, the owner needs to know that he can easily get rid of the bitcoins, actual trades are not needed.

You cannot ignore the velocity.  If everybody would pay their bills the same day they get the money, instead of waiting to the end of the month, the same amount of trading would require 1/30 as much currency in circulation.  If the currency it bitcoin, the smaller demand would imply a lower value per BTC.
[...]

If you have money, change your mind to having a car instead; someone else having a car, but prefers holding money, then the two switched roles, and no change in demand for money or cars happened. So it depends on the seller, does he have the same wish to hold money as the buyer before he decided to buy?

One has to use consistent quantities Q, V, M and P of course.

So in your example, if you include the car in Q, then you have to include the money transfer in V.   Of course, if two people exchange something, you might think that that doesn't influence anything.  That would be correct if they were going to exchange, no matter what happens.  If I'm going to exchange my car with my father, who gives me money he has under his matrass instead, then this might not influence the price of cars on the car market.
However, that is not the case in general.
I will make a decision to buy a car, or to buy something else, or to hold my money, based upon several criteria, like the price of the car, my projections of getting money in the future and so on.  And it are these decisions which determine demand and offer, and settle prices.  If I think I will get money next month, I might consider buying a car.   If I think I will not get much money next month, I might reconsider buying that car.  The person supposed to give me some money next month (my employer) will have to get that money from somewhere.  Maybe by selling goods.  The price he will get from his goods will depend on how much money people are willing to give.  And so on.

So, exchanges, or better, the arbitration between different possible exchanges (or not), determine offer and demand, and hence price.  So they are not "neutral to price" except if there is no choice and they are going to happen no matter what.


It is neutral, in my case when everything that happened was a change of roles. If the seller turns around and uses his money, and also everyone down the road, then there will be a cascade of exchanges. If down the road, some seller should just keep the money, the situation is restored.

The point is that if we use the quantity theory of money, we use also the amount of goods bought with the money, Q.  Because after all, money serves in the end to buy goods.  Money that doesn't buy goods isn't any good.  It can be a "store of value" for a long time, but in the end, you want to get something for your money.  Money is by definition an intermediate asset, which is no good if it doesn't serve in the end to "complete the transaction". 
If I exchange two apples for an egg, the transaction is completed.
If I sell two apples today, put the money aside for 3 months, and then I buy an egg, it is only at that point that the transaction is completed.  In the mean time, the money served as "store of value" for that transaction that took 3 months. 
But there's no use in acquiring money that doesn't end up buying goods.  This is why Q is important.

Quote
In the end it means that it is the aggregate demand to hold money (and the aggregate demand to hold anything else, which is just the inverse), that decides what the money is worth. Not the transactions.

I agree with you.  However, what is the drive of that aggregate demand ?  The storage of value in order to bridge the two parts of a trade.  In our example, part of the aggregate demand to hold money was 3 months, and the worth of 2 apples.

And we're back to Q (2 apples) and V (4 times 3 months in a year).

Quote
The velocity does not include financial transactions.

You can choose.  In that case, you have to put the other financial asset into Q.  But I agree with you that that is not usual.  However, as long as V and Q are consistent, there is no problem.    The sum must always match, because the left and the right side of the equation P x Q = M x V count the same thing, namely the amount of money (the flux) that went over the counter.

Quote
Money is never produced or never consumed (sound money, that is), so the velocity is a number that tries to express the trade in the production chain. That is, it is fundamenentally expressing the same as GDP. It is never measured, it is computed. It is basically useless for thinking about the value of bitcoin.

I wouldn't say so.  I think it is fundamental.  The formula also works with exchanges of money.
Consider an asset like gold, which is only exchanged for "other money".

You can still write P x Q where Q stands for "all the other money bought with gold and P the price of that money in gold".  I

We then *still* have: P x Q = M x V

Here M is the total amount of gold, and V is the velocity of gold (namely the number of times it has been traded for other money).  P x Q is the amount of "other money" that has been traded for gold, at the money's price in gold.

So it still works.  The only problem is, that there is nothing fundamental in it in this case.  It is essentially just the two sides of the bookkeeping of "all the exchanges in the world".  The traded volume increases just as well Q as it increases V.

But you are dealing with another aspect, that is, the market share of the demand for "store of value" that will be taken by bitcoin, in competition with all other "stores of value".  This is indeed the thing I have no idea for how to estimate , and honestly, I don't believe that it can be the principal driver for the bitcoin price.

If bitcoin were just the "replacement for gold" in store of value, but without any stuff you could buy with it directly, then this price could be just anything.  The current price is no indication.  The current price is purely speculative "to the moon".

This "ponzi" side of bitcoin, which is an essential part in becoming a monetary asset, has of course to stop sooner or later.
You want to buy bitcoin at $100,- because you think people will want to buy it at $1000,- one day.  But people will buy it at $1000,- one day because they think people will want to buy it at $10 000, - one day.  And so on.  This will stop of course.

Because NOBODY is ever going to pay $1000 trillion for a bitcoin.  So nobody is going want to buy  it at $100 trillion.  All the way down.

So one has to consider that in order for bitcoin to have a value X, it means that people will be willing to buy it at X without expecting to resell it at more than X.   Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.

What is that value X ?  It will indeed depend on the share bitcoin has in the general aggregate demand for store of value.  But in my opinion, that could just as well be a very tiny fraction, as well as a large fraction.  Moreover, bitcoin is made especially to do transactions with.  To buy stuff.  I think it is much safer to look at bitcoin as a monetary asset which serves to buy goods and services, and which has hence an inherent store of value in between earning it and spending it, rather than a competition with other stores of value.  This last aspect will probably only become important if bitcoin is already a monetary asset with which you can buy stuff.

I have a hard time imagining people putting a lot of their stored value in, if the speculative aspect (winning value) which is driving us now, is gone (as the ceiling has been reached), if there's no other use of it.

NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 06:37:18 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible


podyx
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November 15, 2014, 06:39:41 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible




Gold is not a speculative asset? You sir, are not very bright.
dinofelis
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November 15, 2014, 06:40:15 PM



In a steady-state system, the price of a monetary asset is given by the "quantity theory of money", which states that:

P x Q = M x V, where P is the price of the goods - so the price of the monetary asset is its inverse: B = 1 / P

B = 1/P = Q / (M x V)

Q is the amount of goods bought by the monetary asset, M is the amount of monetary asset in circulation, and V is the average velocity (the number of times per year that a given bitcoin is used to buy something).

V is the inverse of T, the (harmonic) average holding time of a bitcoin: the number of years a bitcoin is held as store of value.

So the "end value" in steady state of a bitcoin will ultimately depend on two things:
how much stuff is bought using bitcoin, and how long one holds one's bitcoins.


This theory is too simplified, and has many flaws, thus not used by bitcoin community  Cheesy

1. The formula only works when there is only one currency
If there are multiple currencies in circulation, that will become PQ=m1v1+m2v2+m3v3+... Because bitcoin is only one small currency in circulation, you can not use the formula to calculate its price since you don't know how much goods are exclusively sold for bitcoin (maybe none)

As I said elsewhere, this formula does work, for every monetary asset.  But you have to be consistent.

After all, what does that formula say ?  It counts a flux of monetary asset over the counter, on both sides.  How much is spend (the M x V side), and how much was received (the P x Q side).  That is twice the same flux.  
On the left and the right side, you have to take into account of course the same events of payment, all concerning the monetary asset under consideration (here bitcoin).

P x Q is ALL the events you care to consider where bitcoins paid it (if you want, including fiat), and exactly the same events should be included in M x V to calculate V.

In P x Q is not included all those transactios where goods were not exchanged for bitcoin.

Quote
2. Not all the money has the same circulation speed
For a given amount of dollar, the V for each dollar is different, impossible to use this model to calculate anything. For example, FED has created 6x more money since 2008, but majority of those money has a velocity of 0 (hold at FED as reserve), thus removed from circulation


V is the average, as taken over M.   With fiat money, you have the option of including or not, some kinds of money.  Money that "doesn't move"  can be included in M, but you should then take the average V lower.  Or you can remove the money that doesn't move from M (making its smaller) but then V will be larger.
As long as you work with a consistent set, this formula works (it has to, it is trivial bookkeeping).

Quote
3. The P in the formula usually don't include capital goods (for example MBS or bitcoin), which consists of majority of today's money flow. When capital goods enter the formula, the calculation will be totally changed and the price level of daily goods will become irrelevant

You have to include it, if you included those exchange events in your bookkeeping.

Again, consistent sets of P, Q M and V.


Quote
For bitcoin, there is one simple method to calculate its value: The mining cost. Mining cost is the lowest possible cost to get bitcoin, it is the baseline for its valuation

No, that would be ridiculous.  It is not BECAUSE miners are spending more money, that other people are going to put money into it !   Miners will simply go broke if the bitcoin market price falls under the mining cost.  That will diminish hashing rate, diminish difficulty, and lower mining costs until mining cost falls below the market price again.

The day that the bitcoin market price is half a cent, the whole bitcoin network will become 5 PC's running a mining software :-)
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November 15, 2014, 06:50:03 PM


You must be on something.

Wrong price charts all day.

Yeah, something is up. That info comes directly from Bitstamp. I think something similar has happened before but Bitstamp cleaned its act up before I got around to working around it.
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November 15, 2014, 06:52:11 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible




Gold is not a speculative asset? You sir, are not very bright.

Do colors help?
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November 15, 2014, 06:53:24 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible




Gold is not a speculative asset? You sir, are not very bright.

Do colors help?

Yea Grin
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November 15, 2014, 06:54:08 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible

I stand corrected, I used "speculative" in two different senses.  Of course all store of value and all monetary assets are speculative in the sense "counting on the fact that someone will put some value for it later".

But what I meant with speculative here is "counting that others will put MUCH MUCH more value for it later than I have to do now".  (to the moon...)

I would say that that is the case for bitcoin for the moment.  People buying coins speculate on a MUCH higher value for them later ("too the moon").  Me too.  

If you would know that bitcoin will have a steady value of, say, $700 10 years from now, I'm not sure you would buy any coins now.

Nevertheless, that's more or less what you do when you buy gold or when you buy real estate as "store of value".  

A good store of value compensates for fiat inflation, and follows economic growth.  
An investment does some more (shares in a company will generate also dividend in most cases).  It can generate cash flow.

I would think that not many people buying gold think it will "go to the moon".  They may hope that they buy low, and that it  will rise, but there's no realistic expectation of a real surge in buying power of gold of a factor of 100 or so.  Which is what bitcoin holders are hoping for.  That's what I meant with "speculative".

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November 15, 2014, 06:54:43 PM

Ride the Wave
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November 15, 2014, 07:01:18 PM


Explanation
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 07:12:44 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible

I stand corrected, I used "speculative" in two different senses.  Of course all store of value and all monetary assets are speculative in the sense "counting on the fact that someone will put some value for it later".

But what I meant with speculative here is "counting that others will put MUCH MUCH more value for it later than I have to do now".  (to the moon...)

I would say that that is the case for bitcoin for the moment.  People buying coins speculate on a MUCH higher value for them later ("too the moon").  Me too.  

If you would know that bitcoin will have a steady value of, say, $700 10 years from now, I'm not sure you would buy any coins now.

Nevertheless, that's more or less what you do when you buy gold or when you buy real estate as "store of value".  

A good store of value compensates for fiat inflation, and follows economic growth.  
An investment does some more (shares in a company will generate also dividend in most cases).  It can generate cash flow.

I would think that not many people buying gold think it will "go to the moon".  They may hope that they buy low, and that it  will rise, but there's no realistic expectation of a real surge in buying power of gold of a factor of 100 or so.  Which is what bitcoin holders are hoping for.  That's what I meant with "speculative".

Gotcha.
I sort of went off on a tangent with the second point, "non-speculative store of value is [not] possible," but it's not hair-splitting.  I sincerely feel that precious metals, conventionally considered good stores of value, are anachronisms in contemporary economy.  The entire "store of value" concept is.  This is a bit out there, but "store of value" is not a prerequisite, or even desirable, in fiat-based economies.  Can you sorta see what I mean?

*Another aside:  If "stores of value" (like gold) did not exist, would substantial economic changes result?
edited
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November 15, 2014, 07:32:09 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.
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November 15, 2014, 07:39:32 PM

If you bought BTC one year ago:


http://oneyearbitcoin.info/
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November 15, 2014, 07:46:22 PM

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November 15, 2014, 07:52:55 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

Good Luck! It will be interesting to see if you can get it much beyond $360-$370.
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November 15, 2014, 07:54:47 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

Good Luck! It will be interesting to see if you can get it much beyond $360-$370.

If that,

shorting here is suicide.
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November 15, 2014, 07:56:18 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

!?I am itching to go long?! (not 2222:1, no, just 2:1, may be Tongue)
4h MACD should reach an inflection point soon (or else...) and 4h StochRSI have been below the floor for 12 hours. So, it should bounce up in <12h (or else... "end of the world" dump, I guess, down to 320-ish in a spike -> but who would possibly want that...?).
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