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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
$120K - 19 (17.6%)
$130K - 17 (15.7%)
$140K - 9 (8.3%)
$150K - 19 (17.6%)
$160K - 2 (1.9%)
$170K+ - 33 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 108

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26813171 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 06:37:18 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible


podyx
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November 15, 2014, 06:39:41 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible




Gold is not a speculative asset? You sir, are not very bright.
dinofelis
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November 15, 2014, 06:40:15 PM



In a steady-state system, the price of a monetary asset is given by the "quantity theory of money", which states that:

P x Q = M x V, where P is the price of the goods - so the price of the monetary asset is its inverse: B = 1 / P

B = 1/P = Q / (M x V)

Q is the amount of goods bought by the monetary asset, M is the amount of monetary asset in circulation, and V is the average velocity (the number of times per year that a given bitcoin is used to buy something).

V is the inverse of T, the (harmonic) average holding time of a bitcoin: the number of years a bitcoin is held as store of value.

So the "end value" in steady state of a bitcoin will ultimately depend on two things:
how much stuff is bought using bitcoin, and how long one holds one's bitcoins.


This theory is too simplified, and has many flaws, thus not used by bitcoin community  Cheesy

1. The formula only works when there is only one currency
If there are multiple currencies in circulation, that will become PQ=m1v1+m2v2+m3v3+... Because bitcoin is only one small currency in circulation, you can not use the formula to calculate its price since you don't know how much goods are exclusively sold for bitcoin (maybe none)

As I said elsewhere, this formula does work, for every monetary asset.  But you have to be consistent.

After all, what does that formula say ?  It counts a flux of monetary asset over the counter, on both sides.  How much is spend (the M x V side), and how much was received (the P x Q side).  That is twice the same flux.  
On the left and the right side, you have to take into account of course the same events of payment, all concerning the monetary asset under consideration (here bitcoin).

P x Q is ALL the events you care to consider where bitcoins paid it (if you want, including fiat), and exactly the same events should be included in M x V to calculate V.

In P x Q is not included all those transactios where goods were not exchanged for bitcoin.

Quote
2. Not all the money has the same circulation speed
For a given amount of dollar, the V for each dollar is different, impossible to use this model to calculate anything. For example, FED has created 6x more money since 2008, but majority of those money has a velocity of 0 (hold at FED as reserve), thus removed from circulation


V is the average, as taken over M.   With fiat money, you have the option of including or not, some kinds of money.  Money that "doesn't move"  can be included in M, but you should then take the average V lower.  Or you can remove the money that doesn't move from M (making its smaller) but then V will be larger.
As long as you work with a consistent set, this formula works (it has to, it is trivial bookkeeping).

Quote
3. The P in the formula usually don't include capital goods (for example MBS or bitcoin), which consists of majority of today's money flow. When capital goods enter the formula, the calculation will be totally changed and the price level of daily goods will become irrelevant

You have to include it, if you included those exchange events in your bookkeeping.

Again, consistent sets of P, Q M and V.


Quote
For bitcoin, there is one simple method to calculate its value: The mining cost. Mining cost is the lowest possible cost to get bitcoin, it is the baseline for its valuation

No, that would be ridiculous.  It is not BECAUSE miners are spending more money, that other people are going to put money into it !   Miners will simply go broke if the bitcoin market price falls under the mining cost.  That will diminish hashing rate, diminish difficulty, and lower mining costs until mining cost falls below the market price again.

The day that the bitcoin market price is half a cent, the whole bitcoin network will become 5 PC's running a mining software :-)
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November 15, 2014, 06:50:03 PM


You must be on something.

Wrong price charts all day.

Yeah, something is up. That info comes directly from Bitstamp. I think something similar has happened before but Bitstamp cleaned its act up before I got around to working around it.
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 06:52:11 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible




Gold is not a speculative asset? You sir, are not very bright.

Do colors help?
podyx
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November 15, 2014, 06:53:24 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible




Gold is not a speculative asset? You sir, are not very bright.

Do colors help?

Yea Grin
dinofelis
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November 15, 2014, 06:54:08 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible

I stand corrected, I used "speculative" in two different senses.  Of course all store of value and all monetary assets are speculative in the sense "counting on the fact that someone will put some value for it later".

But what I meant with speculative here is "counting that others will put MUCH MUCH more value for it later than I have to do now".  (to the moon...)

I would say that that is the case for bitcoin for the moment.  People buying coins speculate on a MUCH higher value for them later ("too the moon").  Me too.  

If you would know that bitcoin will have a steady value of, say, $700 10 years from now, I'm not sure you would buy any coins now.

Nevertheless, that's more or less what you do when you buy gold or when you buy real estate as "store of value".  

A good store of value compensates for fiat inflation, and follows economic growth.  
An investment does some more (shares in a company will generate also dividend in most cases).  It can generate cash flow.

I would think that not many people buying gold think it will "go to the moon".  They may hope that they buy low, and that it  will rise, but there's no realistic expectation of a real surge in buying power of gold of a factor of 100 or so.  Which is what bitcoin holders are hoping for.  That's what I meant with "speculative".

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November 15, 2014, 06:54:43 PM

Ride the Wave
ChartBuddy
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November 15, 2014, 07:01:18 PM


Explanation
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 07:12:44 PM

...Then it would stop being a speculative item, and become a "store of value".  Like gold or the like.
...

You start out with unjustified premises, such as:
-gold is not a speculative asset
-non-speculative store of value is possible

I stand corrected, I used "speculative" in two different senses.  Of course all store of value and all monetary assets are speculative in the sense "counting on the fact that someone will put some value for it later".

But what I meant with speculative here is "counting that others will put MUCH MUCH more value for it later than I have to do now".  (to the moon...)

I would say that that is the case for bitcoin for the moment.  People buying coins speculate on a MUCH higher value for them later ("too the moon").  Me too.  

If you would know that bitcoin will have a steady value of, say, $700 10 years from now, I'm not sure you would buy any coins now.

Nevertheless, that's more or less what you do when you buy gold or when you buy real estate as "store of value".  

A good store of value compensates for fiat inflation, and follows economic growth.  
An investment does some more (shares in a company will generate also dividend in most cases).  It can generate cash flow.

I would think that not many people buying gold think it will "go to the moon".  They may hope that they buy low, and that it  will rise, but there's no realistic expectation of a real surge in buying power of gold of a factor of 100 or so.  Which is what bitcoin holders are hoping for.  That's what I meant with "speculative".

Gotcha.
I sort of went off on a tangent with the second point, "non-speculative store of value is [not] possible," but it's not hair-splitting.  I sincerely feel that precious metals, conventionally considered good stores of value, are anachronisms in contemporary economy.  The entire "store of value" concept is.  This is a bit out there, but "store of value" is not a prerequisite, or even desirable, in fiat-based economies.  Can you sorta see what I mean?

*Another aside:  If "stores of value" (like gold) did not exist, would substantial economic changes result?
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Phillis
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November 15, 2014, 07:32:09 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.
Wandererfromthenorth
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November 15, 2014, 07:39:32 PM

If you bought BTC one year ago:


http://oneyearbitcoin.info/
LFC_Bitcoin
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November 15, 2014, 07:46:22 PM

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November 15, 2014, 07:52:55 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

Good Luck! It will be interesting to see if you can get it much beyond $360-$370.
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November 15, 2014, 07:54:47 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

Good Luck! It will be interesting to see if you can get it much beyond $360-$370.

If that,

shorting here is suicide.
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November 15, 2014, 07:56:18 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

!?I am itching to go long?! (not 2222:1, no, just 2:1, may be Tongue)
4h MACD should reach an inflection point soon (or else...) and 4h StochRSI have been below the floor for 12 hours. So, it should bounce up in <12h (or else... "end of the world" dump, I guess, down to 320-ish in a spike -> but who would possibly want that...?).
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November 15, 2014, 08:01:18 PM


Explanation
Fatman3001
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November 15, 2014, 08:02:07 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

Good Luck! It will be interesting to see if you can get it much beyond $360-$370.

If that,

shorting here is suicide.

I agree, even though there has been quite a bit of manipulation the last couple of days it seems to me that XBT is heading up and a fair price right now is between $370 and $390 until the dust settles.
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November 15, 2014, 08:12:43 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

!?I am itching to go long?! (not 2222:1, no, just 2:1, may be Tongue)
4h MACD should reach an inflection point soon (or else...) and 4h StochRSI have been below the floor for 12 hours. So, it should bounce up in <12h (or else... "end of the world" dump, I guess, down to 320-ish in a spike -> but who would possibly want that...?).

Plenty,if all those so called funds,ETF etc are looking to get going

they are wanting as low a price to start from

manipulation is rife and I hope you can see it

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November 15, 2014, 08:14:07 PM

get those shorts ready, down we go.

!?I am itching to go long?! (not 2222:1, no, just 2:1, may be Tongue)
4h MACD should reach an inflection point soon (or else...) and 4h StochRSI have been below the floor for 12 hours. So, it should bounce up in <12h (or else... "end of the world" dump, I guess, down to 320-ish in a spike -> but who would possibly want that...?).

Plenty,if all those so called funds,ETF etc are looking to get going

they are wanting as low a price to start from

manipulation is rife and I hope you can see it



yep. Whales are eating.
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