bitfloor issues?

[Minor Miner]

No, I think someone taking as much time to defend every single criticism constantly all day long is probably disingenuous when they claim to have no ties.
There was a guy here named inaba who did the same thing for a LONG time and then changed his name to admit who he actually worked for.

[Rassah]

No, I think someone taking as much time to defend every single criticism constantly all day long is probably disingenuous when they claim to have no ties.
There was a guy here named inaba who did the same thing for a LONG time and then changed his name to admit who he actually worked for.

There are "criticisms," and there are outright "lies and misinformation." It's not wrong to defend someone against "outright lies and misinformation," even if that someone really screwed up. Feel free to criticize Bitfloor for not having a contingency plan for something like this, or sending the e-mail to some people but not others, but don't criticize them for something beyond their control.

[Minor Miner]

No, I think someone taking as much time to defend every single criticism constantly all day long is probably disingenuous when they claim to have no ties.
There was a guy here named inaba who did the same thing for a LONG time and then changed his name to admit who he actually worked for.

There are "criticisms," and there are outright "lies and misinformation." It's not wrong to defend someone against "outright lies and misinformation," even if that someone really screwed up. Feel free to criticize Bitfloor for not having a contingency plan for something like this, or sending the e-mail to some people but not others, but don't criticize them for something beyond their control.

Beyond their control?   All of my criticisms were within their control and they should not have run a business that they do not understand.   They were completely undercapitalized for what they are doing.    I am not talking about the first incident which cost people over 23,000 BTC either (that is just complete incompetence.   
1.   Notifying everyone at the same time (and it just seems notifying everyone) --  within their control YES.
2.   Setting up their business in a proper way so that the compliance department is aware and approves what they are doing? --- within their control YES.
3.   Responding to customers complaints and staffing to do it in a timely manner ---  within their control YES.
4.   Repaying the money that was stolen because of your incompetence (admitted incompetence too, read his own admission) -- within their control YES.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[BitcoinAshley]

No, I think someone taking as much time to defend every single criticism constantly all day long is probably disingenuous when they claim to have no ties.
There was a guy here named inaba who did the same thing for a LONG time and then changed his name to admit who he actually worked for.

There are "criticisms," and there are outright "lies and misinformation." It's not wrong to defend someone against "outright lies and misinformation," even if that someone really screwed up. Feel free to criticize Bitfloor for not having a contingency plan for something like this, or sending the e-mail to some people but not others, but don't criticize them for something beyond their control.

This. I started responding because folks seemed rather confused, seemed to think that USD and BTC funds were at risk, that Bitfloor had announced permanent shutdown, didn't really understand the situation. I like to think that I was fighting FUD rather than actually defending Bitfloor. I use multiple exchanges, I have no particular allegiance to Bitfloor.

I know I said that "Roman handled this nicely" but that was way too general/premature on my part, and I agree with the following points that have been made:
1) The fact that some users have not yet received emails is ridiculous
2) The fact that international users are going to have to wait quite a while to even begin verification of an option to receive USD funds is outrageous
3) The fact that this seems to have been dealt with at last-minute and Roman probably didn't have a contingency plan for this eventuality... again, outrageous. It's not like an exchange hasn't gotten its account closed by a bank before...

OTOH, (I think of Topol every time...)
Roman was probably concerned about panic-trading if he kept trading open for long enough to convert user funds to BTC, and in addition, don't tell me people wouldn't criticize him just as much for forcing a certain price to prevent last-minute escape gouging. That is a legitimate suggestion but he would get just as much flak for that as he is getting for this.

Still, Mr. Miner coming in here and trolling about how "real businesses" don't get their Paypal accounts frozen, despite a quick google search being all it takes to prove him incontrovertibly wrong on that point, and then accusing me of working for bitfloor... I guess entertainment is always nice? I try to look for the silver lining.

2.   Setting up their business in a proper way so that the compliance department is aware and approves what they are doing? --- within their control YES.

Wait, you're still going on about this, after numerous counterexamples? You can set up your business perfectly well, be properly capitalized, and even contact the compliance department numerous times, only to be shut down with no reason given, as is stated in the contract. This has happened numerous times to numerous organizations. All it takes is for the compliance department to decide they don't like bitcoin businesses, and pull the plug on one when it gets too big for their liking. I like your pro-bank tilt though, assuming that they always play by the rules and have honorable intentions, am I to assume that you work for JPM or something? Maybe I'll put my tinfoil hat on and start calling you inaba
Paypal/Banks/etc have shown themselves numerous times to be corrupt institutions with their own self-interest at heart. There is absolutely no reason to assume that Bitfloor "wasn't doinitrite" and got shut down for actual compliance violations. It seems you have a personal beef with bitfloor and no amount of counter-FUD will stop your trolling ;D;D

[Rassah]

Beyond their control?   All of my criticisms were within their control and they should not have run a business that they do not understand.  

This is one of those not actual "criticisms" I was talking about. Why do you believe they did not understand their business?

They were completely undercapitalized for what they are doing.

Not true. They had enough BTC and enough USD to cover all withdrawals, since they did not do any fractional reserve. What extra capital did they need?

1.   Notifying everyone at the same time (and it just seems notifying everyone) --  within their control YES.

That's the one thing I mentioned that was, at the very least, weird.

2.   Setting up their business in a proper way so that the compliance department is aware and approves what they are doing? --- within their control YES.

They did. They were registered with the government, they had a business bank account. The bank decided not to like them. It's a fairly common occurrence with bitcoin-based businesses. Even happened to MtGox, where the bank they worked with knew what they were doing, was ok with it, then decided they're not ok with it, and MtGox actually had to take them to court.

3.   Responding to customers complaints and staffing to do it in a timely manner ---  within their control YES.

I was not aware they had customer support and staffing problems. Is this something you are bringing up just now? Why? and what does this have to do with their current situation?

4.   Repaying the money that was stolen because of your incompetence (admitted incompetence too, read his own admission) -- within their control YES.

What does this have to do with what happened now? Repay the money how, and from what source? And what do you think they were doing when they were using their own profits to make people whole? Would a competent thing have been to print 25,000BTC out of nothing and work under severe fractional reserve? Or would the more competent thing have been to say "We were robbed, oh well, good luck, I'm shutting down, and leaving you with nothing"? What is the competent thing to do?

[Minor Miner]

You lose your customers money from your own incompetence, you repay.   You borrow and repay it.   Or you have no credibility.   This is not a "they" are all out to get us bitcoiner thing.   If you honestly do not know why a bank would shut this and the european site down, then you should really start thinking about it.   It is not that complicated. 
So, if BofA was robbed and you had deposits there, would you expect the money back?   Or, would you expect them to "get back to you" and carry on their business?
You really think this shutdown is because the money center banks are terrified that roman and bitcoin is about to destroy their business with bitcoin?    That is truly insane.

[ninjasmurf]

Handled it nicely?   Real businesses do not get their bank accounts shut down.   He says he is registered with FinCen on his website.   He obviously has NO IDEA what he is doing and has no right to have been running a business and assuring people he did know what he was doing.   SCAMMER or complete incompetent.   Either way, a real blight on the BTC PR image.   Thanks a lot for setting us back.   Great PR.

I'm sorry you are a complete and utter idiot. I try to refrain from name-calling - but - as frozenlock mentioned: " REAL BUSINESSES " ? (WTF dude) do they also not get paypal accounts frozen or credit card chargebacks? Banks freeze whatever accounts they want to, this isn't the first time this has happened and it isn't the last. Basing your judgement of Roman's level of competence on his bank account being frozen shows pretty clearly that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

By the way, I not only have an opportunity to school you in value judgement based on the behavior of external institutions with a 100+ year record of flagrant corruption, but also in post quoting etiquette. My post was extremely long and you only responded to one small part of it - where I claimed that Roman handled it nicely. Quote etiquette demands that you prune when the opportunity is obvious.

Have a nice day! "Real businesses" lol. Real businesses don't get credit card chargebacks or paypal freezes in your bizarre-o fantasy world... stop smoking the fiat money and get in touch with reality bro.

+1  Certainly put more nicely than I would have...

+1 to the +1

[randrace]

I hope they get back on their feet. Am I the only one here that is desperate to get their USD into Bitfloor?

[Nuro77]

I hope they get back on their feet. Am I the only one here that is desperate to get their USD into Bitfloor?

Yes.

If you are trying to get USD into Bitfloor right now, you are the only one here like that.

We are all trying to get it out. Preferably via a check by mail, no way I'm going to give more personal details to Bitfloor.

[Rassah]

So, if BofA was robbed and you had deposits there, would you expect the money back?   Or, would you expect them to "get back to you" and carry on their business?

Funny you should ask, because in the real world ^(tm) I would expect to get the money back, but what actually happens most of the time is they just say "they'll get back" to me.

[Minor Miner]

So, if BofA was robbed and you had deposits there, would you expect the money back?   Or, would you expect them to "get back to you" and carry on their business?

Funny you should ask, because in the real world ^(tm) I would expect to get the money back, but what actually happens most of the time is they just say "they'll get back" to me.

When Roman tells everyone exactly why he was shutdown, we can debate.   My point is, it is more likely because of his business practices than the evil banking empire attacking the bitcoin rebels.
Let's take a step back and think about it.   A company where around $2 million of its clients money went missing six months ago.   The "ceo" of the company stops answering these customers questions and many are upset.   The business has a lot of small transactions (inbound and outbound) from many different people and countries (red flag for AML compliance).   Complaints are lodged against the company by many people whose money was stolen and who the CEO refuses to answer to (speculation but seems very likely).   What do you think you would do as the bank when the regulator contacts you about your clients account?    I do not see any big mystery here except a lot of people who do not seem to know what a pain in the ass it is to operate in the real world.

[Rassah]

You really think this shutdown is because the money center banks are terrified that roman and bitcoin is about to destroy their business with bitcoin?    That is truly insane.

NOBODY is suggesting that, and, frankly, you're an idiot for even thinking that anyone has. What we are saying is that banks have an uncanny tendency to shut down accounts of any businesses they deem "inconvenient." Bitfloor and MtGox trade currency, meaning their bank accounts get a lot of deposits and withdrawals. The bank could have closed the account because it was worried about money laundering issues (not from Bitfloor, but from the government auditing them), or they could even have closed the account because the accounting work to track all the money coming in and out was simply getting too tedious. Maybe the exchanges were just costing them too much in accountant salaries and overtime. It doesn't matter. Banks can close accounts on businesses without explanation or recourse, and you can't blame that on Bitfloor.


Well, you can, but then you shouldn't be involved with Bitcoin anyway, since the whole damn point of Bitcoin is to make this kind of bullshit go away. If you think that this kind of bs is the fault of the people using the banks, and not the banks themselves, you're in the wrong forum.

[Rassah]

When Roman tells everyone exactly why he was shutdown, we can debate.

No, no you can't. You can speculate and make up baseless accusations.

My point is, it is more likely because of his business practices than the evil banking empire attacking the bitcoin rebels.

See?

Let's take a step back and think about it.   A company where around $2 million of its clients money went missing six months ago.

25,000 BTC, not $2mil. Even if you convert it to USD, it's $250,000 that went missing.

The "ceo" of the company stops answering these customers questions and many are upset.

Total lie. The company answered questions, talked to people on the forums and came to the best course of action that it could get, that being, to repay the customers from it's future profits. Some customers complained, but either it's get repaid slowly, or the business goes away. No one was willing to invest enough in the LLC, or to give it a big enough loan, to cover the loss. And don't forget, it's an LLC. Roman isn't personally liable to anyone.

 The business has a lot of small transactions (inbound and outbound) from many different people and countries (red flag for AML compliance).

Despite Bitfloor being registered and following AML procedures? Or is this more "speculating?"

Complaints are lodged against the company by many people whose money was stolen and who the CEO refuses to answer to (speculation but seems very likely).

No, just speculation. Baseless fud more like it. See above.

What do you think you would do as the bank when the regulator contacts you about your clients account?    I do not see any big mystery here except a lot of people who do not seem to know what a pain in the ass it is to operate in the real world.

Please explain MtGox and their French bank account then? How can you say that it's a pain in the ass to operate in the real world, and then turn around and say that "Banks don't close people's accounts without explanations" and that "it must be all Bitfloor's fault?" Are you operating in the real world, and finding it to be a pain in the ass, because you are so incompetent, too?

[Minor Miner]

You really think this shutdown is because the money center banks are terrified that roman and bitcoin is about to destroy their business with bitcoin?    That is truly insane.

NOBODY is suggesting that, and, frankly, you're an idiot for even thinking that anyone has. What we are saying is that banks have an uncanny tendency to shut down accounts of any businesses they deem "inconvenient."

It doesn't matter. Banks can close accounts on businesses without explanation or recourse, and you can't blame that on Bitfloor.


Well, you can, but then you shouldn't be involved with Bitcoin anyway, since the whole damn point of Bitcoin is to make this kind of bullshit go away. If you think that this kind of bs is the fault of the people using the banks, and not the banks themselves, you're in the wrong forum.

No, they cannot close accounts for any reason.   There are actually federal laws protecting you but just ignore that since it does not fit in your theories.   The bitcoin community is USING banks, so until you stop you should grow up and learn the rules and regulations of using them.   So, yes, it falls on the people "using" the banks to further bitcoin to do it properly.
This conversation ends since you have resorted to name calling.   I assure you that I am not an idiot (other than I have been foolish trying to explain the way the world works to some one who has probably lived most of their life fantasizing about their avatar in their parent's basement for far too long to learn anything.

[Rassah]

No, they cannot close accounts for any reason.   There are actually federal laws protecting you but just ignore that since it does not fit in your theories.

Considering the whole business model of ING Direct was based on "we can close your account for any reason, even if we just don't like you," I'm going to have to say [citation needed]

I assure you that I am not an idiot

Then please, good sir, redeem yourself by explaining where you got the idea that anyone here was suggesting that Bitfloor's account is being closed as part of an attack on Bitcoin itself?

[Dr3AM$cAp3]

So, has anyone received their USD back from bitfloor yet this week?  As it stands now, I have not. Not saying I won't, but every day that passes doessn't make me feel any better.  

just wondering...

[MykelJH]

So, has anyone received their USD back from bitfloor yet this week?  As it stands now, I have not. Not saying I won't, but every day that passes doessn't make me feel any better.  

just wondering...

I have read, either in this thread or another that one person so far has said they got their funds. He said that it was also a substantial amount however he was one of the select few that got an email about it. Sounds sketchy to me

[FenixRD]

So, has anyone received their USD back from bitfloor yet this week?  As it stands now, I have not. Not saying I won't, but every day that passes doessn't make me feel any better.  

just wondering...

I'm waiting on some USD.

time   type   status   amount
Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:48:08 GMT   ach   pending   -####.## USD

(Replaced amount with #s.) That was around 8 PM CDT on Thursday for me, I think. Even during normal Bitfloor operation, that would mean I will get them next week most likely. Too late for the nightly ACH queue, means will be queued Friday which is not a business "night" for ACH which means, at least for me and my BofA account, it'll pre-post ~2 AM Monday. With BofA I can use it in prepost... Other banks, YMMV. Final processing of ACH takes a couple business days, so it depends on how your bank does it.

However on Bitfloor, Roman has written:
"Users who had pending outgoing ACH on 2013.04.18 which is showing as completed should note that their payments did not go out due to the bank account closure. We are aware of this and will send your payments as soon as possible." —2014.04.19

To me that means he has to open a new account at a different bank, deposit cash, and initiate a ton of transfers. Could be a few days, idk where he's at in this process.

FWIW, I moved my balance of "###.##" BTC seven minutes later. Panicked for a bit because it took a while, comforting myself ironically with an expensive wine tasting dinner followed by too many cocktails with the better half, and the assumption that with everyone doing the same thing, the hot wallet had long been empty and Roman would need to raid the cold wallet along with everything else he's doing. I received them at about 1 AM, though I admit I didn't know that until about 9 AM, because... wine and cocktails.

So, who knows. But there are many reasons to be optimistic currently. Frankly, Roman might just be the most honest exchange operator, so when shit happens, we know about it. Mt. Gox could be operating fractionally for all I know. You can operate dishonestly all day long until you either get bored or something catastrophic happens.

[FenixRD]

I have read, either in this thread or another that one person so far has said they got their funds. He said that it was also a substantial amount however he was one of the select few that got an email about it. Sounds sketchy to me

Also FWIW, I did not personally receive any email notification. I went to Bitfloor to conduct a trade and saw the suspension notice. Naturally, the first thing I did was check all Bitfloor threads on bitcointalk, and then the Bitfloor and Shtylman's personal twitters among other things. Then I made the transfers.

[Dr3AM$cAp3]

So, has anyone received their USD back from bitfloor yet this week?  As it stands now, I have not. Not saying I won't, but every day that passes doessn't make me feel any better. 

just wondering...

So, who knows. But there are many reasons to be optimistic currently. Frankly, Roman might just be the most honest exchange operator, so when shit happens, we know about it. Mt. Gox could be operating fractionally for all I know. You can operate dishonestly all day long until you either get bored or something catastrophic happens.

Thank you for the info, I have only withdrawn cash from bitfloor once before this.
And I agree; still optimistic.