MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[sturle]

Services using bitcoind, like mine, may be vulnerable as well.

Or rather services using bitcoind programmed by clueless programmers like you, who accept transactions with zero confirmations.

So what should I do?  Patch bitcoind to reject them?  Every bitcoind accept unconfirmed transactions into mempool as a guard against intentional double spending, and potentially for mining them.  If bitcoind didn't accept unconfirmed transactions, then no transaction would ever get confirmed.

Clueless yourself.

[zyk]

About malleability: it's a known and documented issue, its been on the Wiki for months if not years. [...]

It is known and documented, [...]

The question remains why MtGox took so long to pull this rabbit out of their hat? A convenient excuse. They could have voiced their concerns earlier.

ToS...makes them liable to put the held BTC of clients to the blockchain in case of request !!!

Nobody will complain if this is done ! One by one beginning now! as they even stopped trying, its fair to sue the hell out

of them as not doing anything is a criminal offense !

[sturle]

20:28 < sturles> Question: I have an autobuy system where I give each seller an unique address to transfer to when selling, and use a
                 -walletnotify script to trigger a price check when someone transfer coins to their address.  When the transaction

you are asking questions when you wrote the answer, you give each customer a unique address, so why are you afraid? you just wait for 3 confirmatons like the rest of the world and you are good to go. regarding your script that checks the price, I would check the price when I get the 3rd confirmation and not before, as easy as it can get.

I agree that this has to be fixed, but I just dont feel it is an issue that will cause the failure of the protocol !! if it worked for 5 years it will hold till the fix...

I don't claim it to be a protocol failure.  It is a client failure, and a design error in Bitcoin to depend so much on a malleable transaction ID.  A unmallable unique transaction identifier is needed.  It would be up to the client to calculate it, of course, but services should agree on the format because it will be very visible if used correctly.  Instead of an unconfirmed tx which is listed as a double spend with one txid and a confirmed which is OK listed under another, the transaction will be merged under the same unique ID.

As for the price – when selling on an exchange at market price, would you want the actual known price when you sell or some unpredictable price some very random time ahead?  In my system you can always get my current price (within about 2 seconds by average).  .

[alfabitcoin]

Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris, please come to the Mark
Karpleles office!

[sturle]

I feel I am missing something here, so gox halted BTC withdrawals claiming that its is the protocol fault, we all agree on the bug and it has been known for a long time now, what I cant understand is how users are effected.

ok take a moment and hear me out, or in other words try to explain to me how this works:

1- I request a BTC withdraw
2- Gox hot wallet is empty
3- now 1000 user requests BTC withdrawals.
4- gox fill up the hot wallet to make it possible to withdraw or at the mean time they get enough deposits to proceed with the withdrawals.
5- the attacker is one of those users who did request a withdraw.
6- gox send TX1.
7- attacker change the TX1 to TX2
8- everyone get their Bitcoins regardless which tx is.
9- attacker claims that he didn't receive the BTC so they check their DB for TX1 and they agree on his claim and credit his account ( but again why, what about the other 999 user).
10- all the 999 user got their bitcoins and no one complains.

if we agree on the 10 steps above, then there is something fishy here, now when I see thousands of customers complaining about not getting Bitcoin withdrawals it makes me wonder how is this possible !!? because my logic tells me the 999 user shouldn't be effected, only the attacker who can claim on being "effected".

but for the last couple of weeks some people got their bitcoins when others didn't, how do we explain this ? anyone try to explain this to me ?

Trivial: The inputs used for TX1 have not been marked as spent, and wMtGox will attempt to use one of more of the inputs again for the transactions to the 999 other users.  And this escalates very fast, beacuse those inputs will soon be the oldest unspent inputs in their wallet.  MtGox will always use the oldest unspent output first as input when it create transactions.  After just a few changes transactions, most of the 999 other users will start complaining.

[stompix]

Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris, please come to the Mark
Karpleles office!

Even Chuck Norris can't handle the mess that's in there.

[sturle]

Sturle: I wonder if you are paid to take Gox's side on EVERYTHING

This is simply untrue.  I don't take anyone's side.  I try to be helpful and correct misinformation from people who are actively manipulating the market.  Why is that bad?

[donk4u]

Todays gold at #mtgox - remember to pop popcorn before entering..

On "manual" withdraws and the 5% manual withdraw  (normal) fee:

<@SarahCoinBit> zewelor It's complicated as to who can use it and who can not so we deal  with people individually on it instead

On the need for making public announcements on their website and not just on IRC:

09:49 <@SarahCoinBit> zewelor IRC gets copied and pasted all over the internet. It is not a  secret because it is only on IRC and not the website

On the current SEPA queue:

09:53 <@SarahCoinBit> Saykor SEPA are still being processed.  I think the queue is 5 to 6 weeks,  maybe less for smaller ones

Yes, SarahCoinBit actually works for MtGox. From the UK, of course.

Yes, giving some people the access of their money, and other people no access, IS A CRIME.

Yes, giving different information to different customers, so that some of them can profit financially on the expense of others, IS A CRIME.

Yes, lying in the age of open Internet is fucking distasteful. What are you waiting for? No matter how much time passes and how much money you can suck from your victims, you are still a bunch of lying bastards AND CRIMINALS. (That is, unless "justice" system is meanwhile completely overhauled to prosecute only victimless "crimes" instead of the real ones where the criminal does harm others.. )


Ah you (sturle) were so smart as to have prioritized address to the trading system so that you can pull your orders in the middle of my market buy execution? How smart you are, congratulations. Listen now, asshole: I also operate a silverbank, and know what is an honest way to design such systems, and not by a frigging long-shot would there be such an exploit that you mentioned!!! You are so deep in your crime that you deny even realizing it, making you such a sad clown in everyone's eyes who have a shred of sense of justice left.

I got your name and address, but this part of the message is still not discussed through. I am calling Mt.Gox and you CRIMINALS, which means that you are BREAKING EXISTING LAWS with your procedures regarding ability to get value out of Mt.Gox, in that they are designed, informed and applied discriminator(il)y between customers. Also the trading software allows for blatant manipulation of the trading, making it unpredictable for a customer even to know the outcome of a market order in advance! (I am in no way claiming that this was the most incredulous purposeful misexecution in your history, but this was the very trigger that caused the buy panic in Jan 26, which caused the withdrawal panic, which caused the lockdown.)

That is the thing that worries me the most: (Moral considerations aside), I would not dare to steal money from such many such important people as you are continuously stealing from with your machinations. This makes me believe that you are for all practical purposes under the same control as the (central) banks, known to ream people's ass with the expansion and contraction of credit ever since 1800s and before. Your workings resemble the workings of the installed puppets that claim to be our elected representatives. Sturle speaks like a fucking banker.

I am actually waiting for an answer. The time of silently stealing from widows, orphans and the working class is soon coming to an end.



ADD: To show how you should deal with a situation when it is not clear (due to fire, flood, theft, hack, seizure, external pressure, technical or organizational problem) that you can immediately pay all customers what you have promised or lead them expect that will be paid, thus causing discrimination between clients:

III.2 Special situations

Force Majeure is a negative condition outside of the influence of the Merchant. Such includes, but is not limited to: war or riot, act of God, interruption of public transport, public communications or electricity supply, crime or attempted crime, act or order by authority, strike, lockout, boycott or other such activity, or a force majeure condition affecting a subcontractor. Suppliers of silver, however, are excluded from "subcontractors", and difficulties of the suppliers of silver will not have any impact on Merchant, Vault or Customers.

Merchant must immediately inform, by email, the Customers, if force majeure applies or ceases to apply.

As a result of force majeure, all or part of the Vault may not be in 100% control of the Merchant and thus not deliverable. To avoid any discrimination between the Customers, the following will happen:

Merchant immediately determines the amount of Coins still in Vault and in Merchant's control. This is prorated to Customers in their current accounts. The difference between previous and new balance will be credited to a new, "frozen" account. When the control to the Coins is re-established, the frozen account balance will be merged to the current account. This procedure ensures that Purchase, Withdrawal, Instant Withdrawal, Transfer and Pick-up activities can be continued in current accounts with no risk of actual or anticipated Coins deficit in the Vault. In other words, the Coins representing the balances of Accounts that the Customer can operate, are 100% controlled by the Merchant and usable by the Customers, even during force majeure.

SO obvious what these MTGOX thieves are doing. More and more obvious they have a limited amount of funds on hand and as not to appear broke are cashing out people in europoe bank accounts. Who knows if its not gox engaging in buying sell off accounts themselves at this point I wouldn't put anything past them. Everyone applauds the unregulation of bitcoin and how pure it is. Leave it to crooks to completly undermine everything bitcoin stands for by being the thieves and crooks they have portrayed themselves to be with their criminal actions.

Mt gox is allowing people to profit by short selling who have no means to get coins off ie americans. Mt gox should cease all withdrawls until everyone is allowed to cashout  to prevent what is going on now  short sales. And lol at keeping things positive while someone is outright based on agruments presented stealing money based on panic and fear that mt gox has themselves created .

[sturle]

Conclusion: Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind does not track changed transactions properly.  Changed

Yes, and that is why they look at what coins they have spent not which TXID was used.

Why does a changed transaction look like someone hacked your Bitcoin-Qt then?  If you send one which is changed by a thrid party, your original will stay there forever as unconfirmed.  Fortunately there is work going on to change Bitcoin-Qt to use a normalized transaction hash instead to track transactions.  Which is exactly what MtGox requested.  It would be nice if everyone used the same transaction hash so you could look it up using bitcoind, don't you think?

[sturle]

Even if not, Sturle confessed that his bot has priority access to remove the orders when goxlag hits a certain threshold,

Nope, my bot watch the lag and issue normal API commands to pull it's orders when the threshold is crossed.  I can't influence the order of execution, and certainly not get anything executed in the middle of a market order.  If the lag was 1 second when you issued your order, my bot can not have pulled it's orders.  I honestly don't know what happened then.  Perhaps Mark or someone else can analyze the trade and order book logs for the period to see what happened?  Try prof7bit, he may happen to have a log of everything.

Check the logs, it is all public, and I even took screenshots. Next time anyone do a critical market order, take a screenvideo. That'll teach them 

It should be visible in the order book log and the trade log, yes.  MtGox probably already put the logs in Google Big Table or something, and I am sure there are many people logging everything in private (I am not one of them).

[sturle]

Conclusion: Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind does not track changed transactions properly.  Changed transactions will show up as a new transaction, and I would need the  "new txid" thing to track those properly.  It is not only MtGox.  Services using bitcoind, like mine, may be vulnerable as well.

Hm, wonder if this explains why I've heard all other exchanges updating their systems as well. I believe this mutability issue is not as "insignificant" as the core dev team is attempting to convey.

Yes, the problem may be sperading.  I have been waiting more than three hours now for the withdrawal of the rest of my BTC from Bitstamp.  #bitcoin-otc is full of other people with the same problem.  Anyone else experiencing problems withdrawing BTC from other exchanges today?  The withdrawal is marked "Finished" in my Bitstamp transaction history.  I have tried to contact support there, but no answer yet.

you make it up as you go along. nobody in the entire universe except you is having problems with bitstamp

Seems to be a common problem.

Reddit is full of it as well.  Both Bitstamp and BTC-E.  I don't know if it is related to MtGox's problem or not.  So far only Coinbase and blockchain.info released statements claiming they were not affected by the issue, and Coinbase wasn't exactly clear about it..

[donk4u]

Conclusion: Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind does not track changed transactions properly.  Changed transactions will show up as a new transaction, and I would need the  "new txid" thing to track those properly.  It is not only MtGox.  Services using bitcoind, like mine, may be vulnerable as well.

Hm, wonder if this explains why I've heard all other exchanges updating their systems as well. I believe this mutability issue is not as "insignificant" as the core dev team is attempting to convey.

Yes, the problem may be sperading.  I have been waiting more than three hours now for the withdrawal of the rest of my BTC from Bitstamp.  #bitcoin-otc is full of other people with the same problem.  Anyone else experiencing problems withdrawing BTC from other exchanges today?  The withdrawal is marked "Finished" in my Bitstamp transaction history.  I have tried to contact support there, but no answer yet.

you make it up as you go along. nobody in the entire universe except you is having problems with bitstamp

Seems to be a common problem.

Reddit is full of it as well.  Both Bitstamp and BTC-E.  I don't know if it is related to MtGox's problem or not.  So far only Coinbase and blockchain.info released statements claiming they were not affected by the issue, and Coinbase wasn't exactly clear about it..

both bitstamp and coinbase are still allowing thier customers to cashout to wallets and thier customers are not being forced to short sell because of mass panic that mt gox induced created.People like yourself are able to take advantage of those not being able to cashout  and are doing just that. If Mt gox had a shred of concern about their customers they would implement alternative withdrawl to wallets instead of halting cashouts trapping certain peoples money while allowing people like you to take advantage and make huge profits.

[smoothie]

Sturle: I wonder if you are paid to take Gox's side on EVERYTHING

This is simply untrue.  I don't take anyone's side.  I try to be helpful and correct misinformation from people who are actively manipulating the market.  Why is that bad?

This ^ is utter BS. You 'spin' everything in their favor when clearly it is their fault for whatever issue is being discussed. This is called "taking sides". YOu obviously can't see past your own unbias point of view. Like I said I have 0$ and 0BTC at risk if MTGOX closes up shop. So my opinion is unbias and actually non-emotional nor manipulative. It is purely the way I see it based on past signs/red flags.

Sure you call me a manipulator but how did I cause MTGOX to fuck up withdrawals?

Oh right it was their own incompetence was the reason.

QUESTION: You think it is possible that MTGOX actually could have fucked up their custom implementation and therefore be at fault for the issues concerning withdrawals?

MY ANSWER: I believe so. Their track record speaks for itself especially now that they have tried to shift the blame to the core developers for their issues.

Both Gavin, Jeff, and Greg will all tell you MTGOX is broken, not Bitcoin.

Now can you come to grips with the fact that you might have been oh so wrong in your presumptions about MTGOX? Perhaps take a more neutral stand point and actually call them out on their fuck ups?

Or are you just going to continue to SPIN ever piece of evidence proving how much of a JOKE mtgox really is (not to mention their incompetence)?

[Rampion]

QUESTION: You think it is possible that MTGOX actually could have fucked up their custom implementation and therefore be at fault for the issues concerning withdrawals?

MY ANSWER: I believe so. Their track record speaks for itself especially now that they have tried to shift the blame to the core developers for their issues.

Both Gavin, Jeff, and Greg will all tell you MTGOX is broken, not Bitcoin.

Its pretty clear. Most of my transactions are being "malleated" since yesterday... So what?

I'm using Bitcoin-QT (reference implementation), and thus my wallet balance is displayed correctly. Sure, its a visual annoyance to see all my transactions twice on the UI, with all the unconfirmed ones piling up on the top of the window... But again... So what? Balance is correct, the money is transferred to whom it was supposed to, and at the same speed it would without some joker trying to "malleate" all transactions.

So, reference implementation users are NOT affected. Its easy to check, just broadcast a few transactions and see.

[smoothie]

Conclusion: Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind does not track changed transactions properly.  Changed transactions will show up as a new transaction, and I would need the  "new txid" thing to track those properly.  It is not only MtGox.  Services using bitcoind, like mine, may be vulnerable as well.

Hm, wonder if this explains why I've heard all other exchanges updating their systems as well. I believe this mutability issue is not as "insignificant" as the core dev team is attempting to convey.

Yes, the problem may be sperading.  I have been waiting more than three hours now for the withdrawal of the rest of my BTC from Bitstamp.  #bitcoin-otc is full of other people with the same problem.  Anyone else experiencing problems withdrawing BTC from other exchanges today?  The withdrawal is marked "Finished" in my Bitstamp transaction history.  I have tried to contact support there, but no answer yet.

you make it up as you go along. nobody in the entire universe except you is having problems with bitstamp

Seems to be a common problem.

Reddit is full of it as well.  Both Bitstamp and BTC-E.  I don't know if it is related to MtGox's problem or not.  So far only Coinbase and blockchain.info released statements claiming they were not affected by the issue, and Coinbase wasn't exactly clear about it..

both bitstamp and coinbase are still allowing thier customers to cashout to wallets and thier customers are not being forced to short sell because of mass panic that mt gox induced created.People like yourself are able to take advantage of those not being able to cashout  and are doing just that. If Mt gox had a shred of concern about their customers they would implement alternative withdrawl to wallets instead of halting cashouts trapping certain peoples money while allowing people like you to take advantage and make huge profits.

Agreed. Mtgox should have halted trading before halting withdrawals of BTC. Obvious market manipulation while MTGOX collects fees on every trade. Utter BS.

[pedro82]

soo... has anybody received any fiat from Gox today or yesterday?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=428242 (Japan)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189977 (SEPA)

Earlier Jan. SEPA are not processed that's for sure ! Are they with technical problem also with SEPA transfers, these guys are totally joke !

[Zarathustra]

Agreed. Mtgox should have halted trading before halting withdrawals of BTC. Obvious market manipulation while MTGOX collects fees on every trade. Utter BS.

Yes, fees of several thousand coins within the last month alone. But not willing to recruit staff to support the customers, or at least to eliminate the misleading lies on the frontpage. It's a crime, and defending a crime is a crime.

[igorr]

withdrawal will be fine, when bitcoin price comes to 10 usd.

[cozytrade]

lol  
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-10/bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-says-users-can-withdraw-cash-as-normal.html

“We’re sending cash to people in Japan and around the world as normal. They can exchange coins into cash,” Keferl said in Tokyo.

[BreathOfZen]

MtGox is a criminal organization at this point, and a simple example of their skullduggery is that they have shills like sturle running around making really, incredibly bad arguments in Gox's favor that depend on the naivete of the reader for plausibility.  I am going to start putting GoxShills on ignore when I see em, starting with sturle.