[Group Buy] Avalon ASIC Chips (SebastianJu) Batch 6 ordered (Closed)

[jlsminingcorp]

If yifu knew when he could deliver he would post it. No post means he does not know shit

That's a distinct possibility, but we could ask anyway.

That is not necessarily true, Yifu didn't know when would deliver, and yet said 9 to 10 weeks.  So the reverse is true.

Inverse psychology, I like it .

[hanz]

I'd prefer a somewhat later delivery to a partial refund. A partial refund means a loss, and no chance of winning it back. I did not buy mining equipment to cancel orders.

By the way, why is there no ROI if delivery is e.g. 3 months late? I'm still mining with an FPGA BFL miner (812 MH/s) because I have electricity included in the rent. It has been mining for more than 1 year and has paid for itself several times. That can also happen with other equipment.

Nobody knows how much chips (and hash rate) all companies will produce in total. That is pure speculation.

[Roy Badami]

Hi Sebastian, I'd like to keep my chips please.

Username: Roy Badami
BTC-Refund Payment-adress: N/A
Amount of chips you want to keep: 40

I know it probably won't make ROI now but I've already paid for assembly, and anyway, hopefully enough batches will cancel overall that this will bump our batches up the list a bit.

ETA: Besides I like mining - also, it's good for the network.  I never expected to make money out of mining - at best I hope it will pay a substantial proportion of the costs.  Mainly it's a more fun way of acquiring BTC than buying on an exchange.  If I didn't have my BFL tracking number in hand I wouldn't even have considered cancelling my Avalon chips as I only have 1.34 Gh/s of hashing power currently mining.  As it is the BFL tracking number made it a harder decision.  But I decided I will keep the Avalon chips, even assuming I will almost certainly get my Single before my Bitburners.  But the Bitburners are a lot prettier than a Single, and I think this way also supports burnin's work better.

roy

[Roy Badami]

hopefully enough batches will cancel overall that this will bump our batches up the list a bit.

I just had this thought (probably more of a risk for zefir's group buy than ours):  if enough batches file refund requests then it might happen that the group buys (at least the ones that ordered earlier) might find they've suddenly received several of their batches before they've even managed to reach any consensus on what to do about refunds.  (Personally, if all our batches shipped this week because so many other batches cancelled, it would seem like a good outcome, but I realise some people really want their refunds.)

roy

[DebitMe]

I would like to see how long Yifu thinks it will take to get the first batch for this GB shipped.  That will go a long way in determing whether I would like a refund or to get the chips.

We need to see if he will give some information on where shipping currently is.

[SebastianJu]

Is this refund message for batch #6 members too?

I would like to know what batch 6 members want because only then i can speak with zefir and the other groupbuy involved in that batch.

@All... it would be best to tell me what you want now so in case Yifu offers his refund form in the next days it will likely only be open for some days like it was for batch 3 miners. So i need to know what to do then. If you want to keep the next 4 weeks then tell me that and send me a pm in 4 weeks when you want a refund then. Of course this only works when the form wasnt online till then and refund/not refund was already decided. Then i cant change this anymore.

So send me a pm for your actual wish and i can know then what to do.

I only can make a correct decision when i know how many chips want to be owned still. If only 500 chips in all batches want to be kept it wont be possible to keep a whole batch then i guess.

Yifu did not give a date for refund. He only mentioned work on a refund form and that he would like full refund the most.

There is no date for delivery either. But that Yifu now thinks about refund seems for me like he sees problems that he cant deliver in the next days. Ill try writing him a pm but im really not sure if he will answer. Lets see...

[Roy Badami]

If only 500 chips in all batches want to be kept it wont be possible to keep a whole batch then i guess.

Interesting that people who want refunds will get precedence over those who want chips, given there was nothing in the OP about a batch being cancelled if other group buy members change their mind.  What happens in the more evenly balanced situation where 5000 chips in all batches want to be kept (i.e. exactly half a batch)?  Does that batch get ordered or not?

Besides, given the batch 3 refund experience, who knows if refunds will happen in a timely manner (if at all)?  What happens if you force some people in a batch to take a 'refund' they don't want, and then the 'refund' never turns up, even though YiFi finally ships all chip orders that remain open.?

Still I don't want to make a big deal out of this - I will accept that you can do what you feel is best if at any time you feel it becomes impossible to keep the group buy open.  I really feel that people like Sebastian, zefir, burnin, etc are the innocent parties in this and first and foremost these are people who are doing work that benefits the community, and I don't want them to be hurt by this situation.

But still, given the choice of holding out for chips or holding out for a refund, my preference remains chips - at least as long as burnin remains willing to assemble them.

roy

[Edited lightly for readability]

ETA: So it seems to me it would not so much be offering a refund (I wouldn't ask or expect you to refund out of your own pocket), but more cancelling our orders and putting our trust in YiFu refunding...  But still, as I say, my order is small and I don't want to make a big deal out of this.

[WynX]

What happens in the more evenly balanced situation where 5000 chips in all batches want to be kept (i.e. exactly half a batch)?  Does that batch get ordered or not?

I assume fragmented batches (and they will all be fragmented), will be merged. So refunded chips in the GB will be started to refund first batch 5, then 4 etc.
Batch 6 is a different thing all together since it was split between groupbuys.

How the chips advance in the queue is unclear to me as of yet. Lets say a batch 5 continued order will be moved to fill chipspace in batch 4, would that mean a genuine batch 4 buy needs to be moved to batch 3? I think some fairness and luck comes into play, especially because of very different order sizes... it might quite literaly be puzzling .

[Roy Badami]

[I assume fragmented batches (and they will all be fragmented), will be merged.

Sure.  But since (ignoring batch 6) we're very unlikely to get anything close to an exact multiple of 10,000, how do we get one?  Either we force some people who want refunds to get chips or we force some people who want chips to get refunds.

ETA: So to clarify: Pretending batch 6 didn't happen for a moment, to keep things simple: If we have 15,000 people across all batches wanting chips, do we order two batches or one?  And how do we deal with the people who didn't get their way?  Either way there will be 5,000 chipsworth of people who didn't get there way.  And BTW, I claim 'chipsworth' as a new word :-)

roy

[WynX]

Hahah nice one on the chipsworth lolz. Yes, so we might attempt the same thing as we did for batch 6 --> team up with other GB's (that just doesnt sound right lolz).
If cancelling has precedence: In the end the buyers might need to buy more, if they can't they face cancellation?
If buying has precedence: All cancelling buyers share the loss of remaining chipsworth in the batch that is not filled. Chips could be sold by auction, minimizing this loss....

Cancelling precedence seems to be easier to handle...

EDIT: I do feel buyers having precedence seems to be more fair. They like to continue the original plan and create actual miners. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if auctioning the chips would generate more money than their value either, you see crazy things these days .

[tiros]

Or Yifu could make this simple and allow us to take as many chips we want and not limit us to 10k per order?

[Roy Badami]

Hahah nice one on the chipsworth lolz. Yes, so we might attempt the same thing as we did for batch 6 --> team up with other GB's (that just doesnt sound right lolz).
If cancelling has precedence: In the end the buyers might need to buy more, if they can't they face cancellation?
If buying has precedence: All cancelling buyers share the loss of remaining chipsworth in the batch that is not filled. Chips could be sold by auction, minimizing this loss....

Cancelling precedence seems to be easier to handle...

The problem is, this isn't about chips and refunds.  This is about promises.  We can have no real confidence that either chips or redunds will happen in a timely manner, if at all.

We have evidence that chips are shipping, slowly.  We have little evidence that Avalon has yet honoured many of the promissed refunds to date (despite offering refunds for the delayed Avalon batch 3).

I don't imagine Sebastian is saying he might cancel my order and give me my coins back.  I think he's probably saying he might cancel my order and then hope for the best and if and when Avalon finally refunds the coins I'll get a refund.

But anyway, as I said, I don't have much skin in this game and anyway I will go with the will of Sebastian (as, no doubt, led by the will of the group).

roy

[SebastianJu]

If only 500 chips in all batches want to be kept it wont be possible to keep a whole batch then i guess.

Interesting that people who want refunds will get precedence over those who want chips, given there was nothing in the OP about a batch being cancelled if other group buy members change their mind.  What happens in the more evenly balanced situation where 5000 chips in all batches want to be kept (i.e. exactly half a batch)?  Does that batch get ordered or not?

Besides, given the batch 3 refund experience, who knows if refunds will happen in a timely manner (if at all)?  What happens if you force some people in a batch to take a 'refund' they don't want, and then the 'refund' never turns up, even though YiFi finally ships all chip orders that remain open.?

Still I don't want to make a big deal out of this - I will accept that you can do what you feel is best if at any time you feel it becomes impossible to keep the group buy open.  I really feel that people like Sebastian, zefir, burnin, etc are the innocent parties in this and first and foremost these are people who are doing work that benefits the community, and I don't want them to be hurt by this situation.

But still, given the choice of holding out for chips or holding out for a refund, my preference remains chips - at least as long as burnin remains willing to assemble them.

roy

[Edited lightly for readability]

ETA: So it seems to me it would not so much be offering a refund (I wouldn't ask or expect you to refund out of your own pocket), but more cancelling our orders and putting our trust in YiFu refunding...  But still, as I say, my order is small and I don't want to make a big deal out of this.

I ask all members how many chips they want to get anyway. If we get 10k together then i would try to get a refund for all batches except batch 1 and all members get their chips from batch 1 then.

The thing is... who will pay the 9500 chips that remains? You? Iam? Or will you find a buyer? Or which of the buyers should be forced to buy anyway? I mean it wouldnt be fair to move all chips to batch 1 then because all batch 1 buyers cant get a refund than. In this case in theory no one could get a refund because every batch would contain some buyers that want to keep. Thats the problem here. So i think the only solution at the end would be to handle this democratic since the solution is somewhat black or white. The choice in between is slim.

But i already posted a question to zefir if we could merge such chips into one batch that isnt refunded in case we only get enough chips together with other groupbuys.

If nothing works i guess there still will be some chips are sold somewhere that could be bought. At least Yifu most probably will have a good amount of chips at the end that he only can sell for low prices.

[Roy Badami]

If only 500 chips in all batches want to be kept it wont be possible to keep a whole batch then i guess.

Interesting that people who want refunds will get precedence over those who want chips, given there was nothing in the OP about a batch being cancelled if other group buy members change their mind.  What happens in the more evenly balanced situation where 5000 chips in all batches want to be kept (i.e. exactly half a batch)?  Does that batch get ordered or not?

Besides, given the batch 3 refund experience, who knows if refunds will happen in a timely manner (if at all)?  What happens if you force some people in a batch to take a 'refund' they don't want, and then the 'refund' never turns up, even though YiFi finally ships all chip orders that remain open.?

Still I don't want to make a big deal out of this - I will accept that you can do what you feel is best if at any time you feel it becomes impossible to keep the group buy open.  I really feel that people like Sebastian, zefir, burnin, etc are the innocent parties in this and first and foremost these are people who are doing work that benefits the community, and I don't want them to be hurt by this situation.

But still, given the choice of holding out for chips or holding out for a refund, my preference remains chips - at least as long as burnin remains willing to assemble them.

roy

[Edited lightly for readability]

ETA: So it seems to me it would not so much be offering a refund (I wouldn't ask or expect you to refund out of your own pocket), but more cancelling our orders and putting our trust in YiFu refunding...  But still, as I say, my order is small and I don't want to make a big deal out of this.

I ask all members how many chips they want to get anyway. If we get 10k together then i would try to get a refund for all batches except batch 1 and all members get their chips from batch 1 then.

The thing is... who will pay the 9500 chips that remains? You? Iam? Or will you find a buyer? Or which of the buyers should be forced to buy anyway? I mean it wouldnt be fair to move all chips to batch 1 then because all batch 1 buyers cant get a refund than. In this case in theory no one could get a refund because every batch would contain some buyers that want to keep. Thats the problem here. So i think the only solution at the end would be to handle this democratic since the solution is somewhat black or white. The choice in between is slim.

But i already posted a question to zefir if we could merge such chips into one batch that isnt refunded in case we only get enough chips together with other groupbuys.

If nothing works i guess there still will be some chips are sold somewhere that could be bought. At least Yifu most probably will have a good amount of chips at the end that he only can sell for low prices.

Yes, there is no good option that I can see :-(   Oh well, I trust you to do your best to do what you think is fairest...

roy

[SebastianJu]

Yes, there is no good option that I can see :-(   Oh well, I trust you to do your best to do what you think is fairest...

roy

Looks like zefir in general would work with us when it comes to this... but till now not many sent me their wish. So lets see how it turns out.

[Roy Badami]

Yes, there is no good option that I can see :-(   Oh well, I trust you to do your best to do what you think is fairest...

roy

Looks like zefir in general would work with us when it comes to this... but till now not many sent me their wish. So lets see how it turns out.

Cool, pooling will likely make sense and I was hoping we could work together with zefir again.  As you say, let's see how it turns out.  And thank you for your efforts here.

roy

[Zich]

I really hope that at least there is 1 batch left & make combine with zefir is good choise indeed.

[ajw107]

I think to minimise the stress to Sebastian, we shouldn't be thinking of "ifs", just hope that everyone PMs him in a timely manner with their PREFERRED action, and after either everyone has got back to him, or a set time, tally up how many chip orders remain, and then see the situation (maybe counting people who have not been heard from as still wanting their orders).
Alex

[baloo_kiev]

The thing is... who will pay the 9500 chips that remains? You? Iam? Or will you find a buyer? Or which of the buyers should be forced to buy anyway? I mean it wouldnt be fair to move all chips to batch 1 then because all batch 1 buyers cant get a refund than. In this case in theory no one could get a refund because every batch would contain some buyers that want to keep. Thats the problem here. So i think the only solution at the end would be to handle this democratic since the solution is somewhat black or white. The choice in between is slim.

But i already posted a question to zefir if we could merge such chips into one batch that isnt refunded in case we only get enough chips together with other groupbuys.

If nothing works i guess there still will be some chips are sold somewhere that could be bought. At least Yifu most probably will have a good amount of chips at the end that he only can sell for low prices.

One possible solution is refunding 5 batches divided between everyone who wants a refund. In this case everyone may receive as little as 5/6 of the initial cost. The remainder of the first batch may be taken by you. I believe most buyers will be OK with that.

[philr13]

Has anybody actually though that yifu might have wanted to have a lot of BTC to make a lot of BTC To shift the market up and down??

i might be talking crap but it is a big possibilty.

Sebastian i got your inbox and will be talking to the other members of our group today

Thanks.