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Author Topic: VERITASEUM DISCUSSION THREAD  (Read 250992 times)
streetgainer
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July 09, 2017, 04:31:40 AM
 #1561

More FUD about something Reggie has already answered

"Now... it was stated earlier that they can move it to a diiferent chain, if they can great because I think they won't have choice soon. Again, IMHO."



Veritaseum is platform agnostic per CEO Reggie Middleton

End of discussion .... oh in my fn humble opinion lol   

Anything else Activity 2 Newbie?


 Cheesy


Newbie?... is that what I'm categorized as? Damn, that's pretty cool. Wink ... I've been around, a long time. Trust me.
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July 09, 2017, 07:17:05 AM
 #1562

Newbie?... is that what I'm categorized as? Damn, that's pretty cool. Wink ... I've been around, a long time. Trust me.
6 posts = newbie. Just how long have you been around?

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Haddem
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July 09, 2017, 08:52:30 AM
 #1563

Newbie?... is that what I'm categorized as? Damn, that's pretty cool. Wink ... I've been around, a long time. Trust me.
6 posts = newbie. Just how long have you been around?

I might not look like it,  but I was in 'nam trading crypto's Grin
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July 09, 2017, 01:58:20 PM
 #1564

I think by using the word "published", this guy confused his point. I think he means "released".

No. I meant "published".

We are in a decentralised, non-equity market. That means we are trading initially worthless tokens on a blockchain, not companies.

Ask yourself, what happens in an equity market when a company issues new shares at will and you purchase those shares. You still have your money because the company's entire asset base is owed back to you. Even if it converts your monetary capital into plant & machinery, those assets will be valued at an aggregate level, reconciled to a unit share value and their cost will always be owed back to you at LEAST at book value. Years later, if there's a discrepancy between the prevailing corporate valuation and what you paid for your share, that will be accounted for in a continuous sequence of annual trading accounts - even if it goes to zero.

Now lets compare that model with issuing tokens on a blockchain.

Centralised vs Decentralised Archetypes

The original (mining) archetype was that tokens would be "released" through a decentralised process whereby the market at least paid for the cost of production of the token. A common definition of "marketcap" evolved which was based on the "circulating supply" (the mined supply to date) and "total supply" (the maximum ever possible to be mined). This would allow investors to reference an aggregate value for the asset - in so far as it is traded as a security - and work back to a corresponding exchange ratio with other assets.

So each of those two types of asset - corporate equity on the one hand and decentralised blockchain assets on the other - had their own respective valuation discipline which allowed markets to engage in a reasonable price discovery process.

The issue I've been raising in my previous, so called "troll" posts, is that we are now seeing a wholesale corruption of both these disciplines where ICO issuers simply cherry pick the capital generation properties from each paradigm while flushing all the key accountability properties down the toilet. Before illustrating why, lets recap the contrasting definitions of "token release" and "token supply" in the respective business models:

Summary of Distinctions

A. In the equity model, you can create 'tokens' (shares) at will, but the capital raised is still owned by the existing shareholders, not by the directors. Companies are therefore justified in calling themselves the 'source' of the equity and can fairly be described as "releasing" new shares in the sense of creating new capital that has immediate value for those investing, since investor capital is simply crossing from one side of a fence to the other and is still owned by the investor even though they’ve parted with their cash

B. In the (classic) blockchain model, the invested capital is not owed back to the investor, but, tokens cannot be created at will. The investment comes from the miner who creates a monetary token at cost which the market then executes a price discovery process over to establish a final traded value

C. In BOTH cases, there is a categorical protocol for establishing an AGGREGATE valuation for the asset which is the only meaningful reference since unit valuations are simply an arbitrary subdivision of this. In the centralised model, it's the number of shares times the traded price per share. In the decentralised model it's the number of blockchain tokens created to date times the market value of the last traded token

Corrupted Hybrid

Now lets observe how all the principle disciplines of accountability from the above protocols have been discarded in order to create a new "corrupt" hybrid:

From A. we've retained the ability to create tokens at will, while we've lost the condition that the invested capital is to be owed back to the investor

From B. we've lost the cost of production of the tokens

From C. we've lost the requirement to report an aggregate valuation appropriate to our business model which therefore leaves the unit exchange rate wide open to 'gaming' (i.e. we're issuing tokens as if they were equity but reporting them as if they were the current 'mined' supply).

So, in summary: in a decentralised context, Reggie is not the "issuer" and should not be presenting himself as such. He is a trader who is at liberty to sell as much or as little of his wallet as he likes. The difference being that if he was an "issuer", buyers would still own the Ether/bitcoin that they paid him for the tokens. His full wallet therefore counts towards marketcap just as much as mine or yours.


’The more the merrier’

Lets turn for a moment to all the hand waving surrounding the idea that it’s actually a good thing that more tokens are sold - the so called “Metcalfe's Law”:

…platform business model or you would realize that the more the merrier (you know, Metcalfe's Law, and all...). Again, you are consistently looking at the economics as a inflationary item count or some sort of dilutive effect similar to traded equities. That is almost the antithesis of what we have here

There was no dispute here. It’s almost a universally understood concept that greater adoption garners value - even if it comes out of “Reggie’s wallet”. However “Metcalfe’s law” is no more than a philosophical nuance unless its effect can be measured and quantified at an aggregate level - independently of the type of asset concerned. Contrary to what Reggie asserts in that post, it’s not the “antithesis of what we have here”, otherwise he’d be selling software as a service and not as a tradeable “security”.

The reason this is significant is because there are two ways in which Metcalfe’s law can have an impact and only one of them benefits the small investor holding a fixed quantity of tokens. In particular, if all the new sales come out of a part of the supply that is not currently counting towards marketcap, then the Metcalfe’s law all goes into the hidden supply growth but the market’s valuing the unit rate as if there was none, so you’ve got this timebomb waiting to go off as soon as the real valuation is known. (NOTE: Nothing to do with ‘dilution’, simply establishing an authentic, commonly accepted aggregate valuation).

What’s a ‘Security

Finally, lets consider the idea that’s been posted both by Reggie and by others that VERI somehow “isn’t a security”. All I’d say to that is that it’s the market that decides whether it’s a security or not and basically anything at all that has a resale value and a variable price is a potential candidate.

There are indeed some justifiable cases for arguing that a “blockchain token is not a security”, but only when the market is deprived of making trading gains on it and they’re more properly described here by one of the more respected Ethereum project staff (and none of which apply to the VERI token).



You stated:
"So, in summary: in a decentralised context, Reggie is not the "issuer" and should not be presenting himself as such. He is a trader who is at liberty to sell as much or as little of his wallet as he likes..."

This is wrong. Reggie (or more appropriately, a company that Reggie works for has created a contract that) is both the issuer (creator) and a major stakeholder. You are loosely throwing around terms as jargon that have very little correlation to the topic at hand. Traders are speculators who chase price movement (in any direction they can monetize - whether up or down - with the anticipation of economic gain). Stakeholders seek economic gain from the increase in economic value of the asset in which they have some for of "economic" (and not necessarily equity) stake. This major misunderstanding on your part. I cannot overemphasize this point enough. I really do mean major - for this is massively inappropriate application of perverse logic that renders you incapable of both understanding how to value Veritas and Veritaseum, and anticipating the future action of the assets that I shepherd. It is in my best interest to perform in a fashion that maximizes the value of the economic stake that I shepherd and oversee. Thus what is good for the relatively smaller stakeholder (ie. many of those in this forum) is very, VERI good for me. What is bad for the relatively smaller stakeholders in this forum will be very, VERI bad for me. Your assert that I am a trader, where there's potential parting of interests between myself and the smaller stakeholders where what's good for me may not necessarily be good for the rest of you guys. That is simply wrong on a wide variety of levels.

You also stated:
"His full wallet therefore counts towards marketcap just as much as mine or yours."

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but it is also not necessarily a stated negative either. More on this later, though.

You stated:
"otherwise he’d be selling software as a service and not as a tradeable “security”."

This is an arbitrarily contrived opinion of yours that you are stating as fact. We are distributed and autonomous software and financial engineering-based solutions provider. The token enables the distributed and autonomous attributes of the delivered solution. Attempting to pigeonhole us into either a SaaS or a security decision is simply a capricious lumping of every potential option into category A or category B, even worse, rendering category B potentially illegal.  
You then go on to state:
“However “Metcalfe’s law” is no more than a philosophical nuance unless its effect can be measured and quantified at an aggregate level - independently of the type of asset concerned”.
I don’t remember reading that in Professor Metcalfe’s thesis, but let’s give you the benefit of the doubt. Using the undisputed poster child of Metcalf’s thesis, the Internet, what is the stated “measure[d] and quanty[ified] at an aggregate level - independently of the type of asset concerned”?Huh
Again, you are arbitrarily casting you opinion as stated fact, and more egregiously, doing so without any evidentiary or empirical backing. That may fool the uninitiated, but just a little critical thought pierces the illusion of intellectual authority, easily!

You then go on to state:
“The reason this is significant is because there are two ways in which Metcalfe’s law can have an impact and only one of them benefits the small investor holding a fixed quantity of tokens. In particular, if all the new sales come out of a part of the supply that is not currently counting towards marketcap, then the Metcalfe’s law all goes into the hidden supply growth but the market’s valuing the unit rate as if there was none, so you’ve got this timebomb waiting to go off as soon as the real valuation is known. (NOTE: Nothing to do with ‘dilution’, simply establishing an authentic, commonly accepted aggregate valuation).”

This is nonsense!!! Valuation is derived from economic cashflows. In essence, the amount of real, inflation and risk adjusted capital generated. You haven’t broached this topic ONCE in your entire diatribe, yet you haphazardly throw in the term and concept of “valuation”. That’s simply not how a prudent person approaches fundamental analysis. I’ve even been lenient enough to overlook the use of the term “marketcap” which although popular in the media and discussion boards, is highly misleading. Download our Gnosis report to glean an understanding on how to value tokens. In order for real valuation to be “known” of even honestly discussed, we need to broach topic of revenue generation and margins. I’m listening….
 
Then you go on broach the topic of what is a security. This is a legal issue, yet you are quoting a developer? It’s not in my best interest to open that hornets nest, but let it be known that we established nearly immediately, the utility value of out tokens through the issuance of research, and through the announcement of strategic deals wherein established institutions with strict regulatory oversight have agreed to purchase the tokens solely for their utility value in building their own constructs of value. It just so happens that the first of these deals to be announced was a securities exchange. You are purposely ignoring fact, to build an argument on fiction, and worse yet you are doing the equivalent of asking a law firm to build software. Head Smack!!!

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July 09, 2017, 02:44:01 PM
 #1565

People in this forum would probably be surprised at how much VERI Reggie Middleton has sold to institutions already. There is high demand for it, and the demand should only increase over the next year.

Reggie is an extremely smart, experienced and honorable man, and he is not going to dump all his 'software' on us and crash the value of the current supply
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July 09, 2017, 02:56:42 PM
 #1566

More FUD about something Reggie has already answered

"Now... it was stated earlier that they can move it to a diiferent chain, if they can great because I think they won't have choice soon. Again, IMHO."



Veritaseum is platform agnostic per CEO Reggie Middleton

End of discussion .... oh in my fn humble opinion lol   

Anything else Activity 2 Newbie?


 Cheesy


Not only that, but remember, Veritaseum was already running on the Bitcoin blockchain/sidechain before this.  It's now being ported to run on the Etherium blockchain.
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July 09, 2017, 03:00:42 PM
 #1567

People in this forum would probably be surprised at how much VERI Reggie Middleton has sold to institutions already. There is high demand for it, and the demand should only increase over the next year.

Reggie is an extremely smart, experienced and honorable man, and he is not going to dump all his 'software' on us and crash the value of the current supply
how much is sold to institutions?
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July 09, 2017, 04:08:52 PM
 #1568

WolVERIne
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July 09, 2017, 04:10:45 PM
 #1569

More FUD about something Reggie has already answered

"Now... it was stated earlier that they can move it to a diiferent chain, if they can great because I think they won't have choice soon. Again, IMHO."



Veritaseum is platform agnostic per CEO Reggie Middleton

End of discussion .... oh in my fn humble opinion lol   

Anything else Activity 2 Newbie?


 Cheesy


Not only that, but remember, Veritaseum was already running on the Bitcoin blockchain/sidechain before this.  It's now being ported to run on the Etherium blockchain.


The previous beta Veri app was running on a sidechain? and not the mainchain? are you sure about that?
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July 09, 2017, 04:40:51 PM
 #1570

You stated:
"So, in summary: in a decentralised context, Reggie is not the "issuer" and should not be presenting himself as such. He is a trader who is at liberty to sell as much or as little of his wallet as he likes..."

This is wrong. Reggie (or more appropriately, a company that Reggie works for has created a contract that) is both the issuer (creator) and a major stakeholder. You are loosely throwing around terms as jargon that have very little correlation to the topic at hand.

Reggie -

Thanks for your reply. I'm afraid (IMHO) your post is the one better characterised as "throwing around terms as jargon that have very little correlation to the topic at hand" Wink

If you care to reread my summary, "the topic at hand" is the clear distinction between 2 types of "issuer":

 • the classic equity sense (where investors retain ownership of the capital paid to the 'issuer')
 • the blockchain sense (where they don't)

I made the case that in the second of those two, there is no distinction (as far as supply counting towards 'aggregate valuation' is concerned) between one wallet holder and another since the 'issuer' is the blockchain and the 'supply' is the sum total of all wallets. You are using the word "issuer" in a market distribution sense, I am using it in an accounting sense for purposes of valuation.

Traders are speculators who chase price movement (in any direction they can monetize - whether up or down - with the anticipation of economic gain). Stakeholders seek economic gain from the increase in economic value of the asset

This is a qualitative distinction you are making between different types of token holders. The distinction of stakeholder and trader is arbitrary and irrelevant to "the topic at hand" since it's moot in the context of accounting for aggregate value. Both are in posession of 'circulating supply' from the perspective of the blockchain-issued capital. Both are at liberty to exchange that supply for money and therefore both 'wallets' count towards the aggregate valuation of that supply. Again, the fact that they have different motivations is moot from an accounting point of view.

On "software as a service"...

This is an arbitrarily contrived opinion of yours that you are stating as fact. We are distributed and autonomous software and financial engineering-based solutions provider. The token enables the distributed and autonomous attributes of the delivered solution. Attempting to pigeonhole us into either a SaaS or a security decision is simply a capricious lumping of every potential option into category A or category B, even worse, rendering category B potentially illegal.

I wasn't "stating as fact" that you were selling "software as a service". I was simply pointing out that you had no grounds for expecting 98% of your blockchain supply to be exempted from the commonly understood 'marketcap' based on the role of the token as long as it's tradeable with a reseale value on the open market. Ironically, the implication of that point was specifically that you were not selling a "SAS" business model  Wink

This is nonsense!!! Valuation is derived from economic cashflows. In essence, the amount of real, inflation and risk adjusted capital generated. You haven’t broached this topic ONCE in your entire diatribe, yet you haphazardly throw in the term and concept of “valuation”.

You're confusing methods of equity valuation with the calculation of marketcap of a blockchain token. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Having challenged your perspective on accounting for token supply 'marketcap', I should add that I'm not otherwise challenging the viability of the token. I'm simply pointing out that the immature and unregulated conventions in this sector are being taken advantage of (gamed) by all and sundry ICO offerings with an audacity that is un-precendented in the sector. Ostensibly, we are in a period where more formal conventions will eventually evolve and right now it's arguably one person's reasoning against another which is why it's important that this debate be had and that (IMO) the view you are taking not be allowed to prevail.



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July 09, 2017, 04:58:13 PM
 #1571

After reading toknormal's comments, I believe the toughest person to deal with in life is not someone who is a dumbfuck, but someone who is a smart alec.

I am on Reggie's side.


     
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AweJohn
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July 09, 2017, 05:05:06 PM
 #1572

More FUD about something Reggie has already answered

"Now... it was stated earlier that they can move it to a diiferent chain, if they can great because I think they won't have choice soon. Again, IMHO."



Veritaseum is platform agnostic per CEO Reggie Middleton

End of discussion .... oh in my fn humble opinion lol   

Anything else Activity 2 Newbie?


 Cheesy


Not only that, but remember, Veritaseum was already running on the Bitcoin blockchain/sidechain before this.  It's now being ported to run on the Etherium blockchain.


The previous beta Veri app was running on a sidechain? and not the mainchain? are you sure about that?


I also i'm curious about this , anyone care to shade some light on this ?
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July 09, 2017, 05:08:31 PM
Last edit: July 09, 2017, 05:26:48 PM by Dorky
 #1573

This is a qualitative distinction you are making between different types of token holders. The distinction of stakeholder and trader is arbitrary and irrelevant to "the topic at hand" since it's moot in the context of accounting for aggregate value. Both are in posession of 'circulating supply' from the perspective of the blockchain-issued capital. Both are at liberty to exchange that supply for money and therefore both 'wallets' count towards the aggregate valuation of that supply. Again, the fact that they have different motivations is moot from an accounting point of view.

Dude, just because someone has a knife in the house doesn't mean the houseowner will go around killing people with it. If so, then you are a potential murderer and should be locked up asap.

I wasn't "stating as fact" that you were selling "software as a service". I was simply pointing out that you had no grounds for expecting 98% of your blockchain supply to be exempted from the commonly understood 'marketcap' based on the role of the token as long as it's tradeable with a reseale value on the open market. Ironically, the implication of that point was specifically that you were not selling a "SAS" business model  Wink

Dude, you are barking at the wrong tree. You should bark at coinmarketcap AND stock exchanges for using the exact same formulation in estimating the market cap. Reggie isn't inventing a new market cap formula. You are effectively talking nonsense.

You're confusing methods of equity valuation with the calculation of marketcap of a blockchain token. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Having challenged your perspective on accounting for token supply 'marketcap', I should add that I'm not otherwise challenging the viability of the token. I'm simply pointing out that the immature and unregulated conventions in this sector are being taken advantage of (gamed) by all and sundry ICO offerings with an audacity that is un-precendented in the sector. Ostensibly, we are in a period where more formal conventions will eventually evolve and right now it's arguably one person's reasoning against another which is why it's important that this debate be had and that (IMO) the view you are taking not be allowed to prevail.

Do you honestly have any idea what is the definition AND formula of calculating the market cap (accounting-wise) used by coinmarketcap AND stock exchanges? You are not trying to stir some trouble, are you?


I don't believe toknormal is an authoritative figure in any field. Not legal. Not accounting.

The next time toknormal comes and talk nonsense again, please keep asking him this "Do you honestly have any idea what is the definition AND formula of calculating the market cap (accounting-wise) used by coinmarketcap AND stock exchanges?" question.

Keep asking him the same question over and over again (which I believe he is denying) because that I believe will reveal the flaw of his intellect.


     
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July 09, 2017, 05:37:23 PM
 #1574

I speculate Veritaseum running on ethereum blockchain will be a long-term commitment, if not a permanent one.

This is because bitcoin is currently undergoing scaling issue, which if unresolved, will continue to see skyrocketing transaction fee. This is simply not viable for Veritaseum and others. And someone (@iamnotback) has figured out that bitcoin will never be allowed to scale with extensions like Segwit and LN, which I now begin to see, and agree. Will this be a problem overall? No. Andreas Antonopolous said it clearly that regardless of the scaling outcome, bitcoin (along with others) will continue to prosper. For those who knows, this is not a concern.


     
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July 09, 2017, 05:56:34 PM
 #1575

I speculate Veritaseum running on ethereum blockchain will be a long-term commitment, if not a permanent one.

This is because bitcoin is currently undergoing scaling issue, which if unresolved, will continue to see skyrocketing transaction fee. This is simply not viable for Veritaseum and others. And someone (@iamnotback) has figured out that bitcoin will never be allowed to scale with extensions like Segwit and LN, which I now begin to see, and agree. Will this be a problem overall? No. Andreas Antonopolous said it clearly that regardless of the scaling outcome, bitcoin (along with others) will continue to prosper. For those who knows, this is not a concern.
But isnt it also possible that Ethereum will get these problems? I like IOTA on that one; the more people uses it the faster it gets and there are no fees.
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July 09, 2017, 06:13:34 PM
 #1576

Girls girls girls,  you're both pretty. Now please sort your shit out, what you are both touting is irrelevant without a decent dept to the market and an  exchange that is capable of providing sockets to tradingveiw so that people can trade. You know like what traders do and shit.
Honestly 80 pages of pure shite.  Put on your big boy pants.
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July 09, 2017, 08:45:30 PM
 #1577

More FUD about something Reggie has already answered

"Now... it was stated earlier that they can move it to a diiferent chain, if they can great because I think they won't have choice soon. Again, IMHO."



Veritaseum is platform agnostic per CEO Reggie Middleton

End of discussion .... oh in my fn humble opinion lol   

Anything else Activity 2 Newbie?


 Cheesy


Not only that, but remember, Veritaseum was already running on the Bitcoin blockchain/sidechain before this.  It's now being ported to run on the Etherium blockchain.


The previous beta Veri app was running on a sidechain? and not the mainchain? are you sure about that?

That was during it's "Ultra-Coin" days.  I'm not sure of all the technical details, but as I understand it, it did use bitcoin.  Was there a sidechain?  That, I'm not sure.  I'm thinking there must have been something to encapsulate all the different aspects of what the software does, that would ultimately be confirmed on the bitcoin blockchain.  Maybe somebody who is more familiar with it would know more.  You can check these links for some more info.

https://blog.veritaseum.com/index.php/current-analysis/1-blog/8-bitcoin-2-0-aka-ultra-coin-bitcoin-s-derivative-layer-that-allows-the-virtual-to-control-real-things-featured

https://www.weusecoins.com/reggie-middleton-ultra-coin/

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July 09, 2017, 09:45:57 PM
 #1578

People in this forum would probably be surprised at how much VERI Reggie Middleton has sold to institutions already. There is high demand for it, and the demand should only increase over the next year.

Reggie is an extremely smart, experienced and honorable man, and he is not going to dump all his 'software' on us and crash the value of the current supply
Exactly. I'm wondering what happens when he runs low or runs out of VERI to sell?

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July 09, 2017, 09:48:21 PM
 #1579

BTW, looks like the firesale on VERI is over with no sale walls up to .775.

Thanks for the "cheap" VERI!

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July 10, 2017, 12:53:29 AM
Last edit: July 10, 2017, 01:13:10 AM by Fern
 #1580

Guys, I think a lot of Veri has been stolen from MEW Phishing websites. Around 2000 stolen then sent to and on-sold at etherdelta from this hacker address alone:

https://etherscan.io/address/0x6f931bac260e7fcbaa0244d3b43a2bd9e9acf698#tokentxns


Be VERY careful with using myetherwallet to transact
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