Just-Dice.com : now with added CLAMs : Play or Invest

[ranlo]

Hello everyone, Red here. So, everyone complains about liquidity of the CLAM market. I feel your pain. If all participants, particularly the large ones, were acting in line with rational self-interest, it would be less of a problem. My naive hope is that some brief education about asset portfolio management will help to correct this.

Rebalancing works like this. If you invest in CLAMS, you establish for yourself a basket of at least 2 assets. A simple basket might include a 50/50 balance of CLAM and BTC. Suppose your basket is worth 1 btc. At a price of .005, you would have 100 CLAM and 0.5 BTC.

If the CLAM price drops by 20% to .004, now you have .4 BTC worth of CLAM and .5 BTC worth of BTC. To rebalance, you would buy 12.5 clams at a cost of .05 BTC, so that your basket now contains 112.5 CLAM and .45 BTC, a total value of .9 BTC.

If the CLAM price goes back up to .005, now you have .5625 worth of CLAM and .45 BTC worth of BTC. To rebalance, you would sell 11.25 clams at a cost of .05625, so that your basket now contains 101.25 CLAM and .50625 BTC, a total value of 1.0125 BTC. The .0125 BTC is what is known as the rebalancing bonus.

You can put up limit orders for how many clams you would buy or sell if the price were to reach a certain point. This adds liquidity.

Rebalancing is a well established asset management technique (not Red's hair-brained scheme). All professional asset managers do this. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebalancing_investments . The benefits of rebalancing include risk control and the rebalancing bonus. The rebalancing bonus is compounded by the market maker bonus when the market is illiquid, as is the case with the CLAM market.

If rebalancing still sounds like too much of a hassle to you, despite the selfish benefits, consider that you could be contributing to the liquidity of the market for everyone's benefit.

Can you please explain what the point of limit orders is? If it just buys/sells if the price hits certain points, you could achieve the same thing if you just set a sell order and a buy order. So what is the benefit of a "limit" order?

[1714886174]

1714886174

[1714886174]

1714886174

[1714886174]

1714886174

[Domrada]

Can you please explain what the point of limit orders is? If it just buys/sells if the price hits certain points, you could achieve the same thing if you just set a sell order and a buy order. So what is the benefit of a "limit" order?

An order to buy or sell can either be a "market" order, or a "limit" order. A market order means you take whatever price the market is currently offering and executes immediately. A limit order has a particular price and executes whenever someone executes a market order against it. Limit orders add liquidity; market orders remove liquidity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_%28exchange%29

[ranlo]

Can you please explain what the point of limit orders is? If it just buys/sells if the price hits certain points, you could achieve the same thing if you just set a sell order and a buy order. So what is the benefit of a "limit" order?

An order to buy or sell can either be a "market" order, or a "limit" order. A market order means you take whatever price the market is currently offering and executes immediately. A limit order has a particular price and executes whenever someone executes a market order against it. Limit orders add liquidity; market orders remove liquidity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_%28exchange%29

Ahhh, I see now. The "Limit" is the normal buy/sell on places like Cryptsy then. That explains the confusion. Thanks, .

[dooglus]

Ahhh, I see now. The "Limit" is the normal buy/sell on places like Cryptsy then. That explains the confusion. Thanks, .

I guess that depends on whether you are asking for a better or worse price than is currently on offer.

If you put in an order to sell CLAM for more than someone is willing to pay for them for right now, that's a limit order, and it will stay in the orderbook until it is matched.

If you put in an order to sell CLAM for less than someone is willing to pay for them right now, that's a market order, and at least some of it will be filled immediately.

[cryptasm]

Also got into claims and understand them finally fully since today thanks to doog=)

[picolo]

Ahhh, I see now. The "Limit" is the normal buy/sell on places like Cryptsy then. That explains the confusion. Thanks, .

I guess that depends on whether you are asking for a better or worse price than is currently on offer.

If you put in an order to sell CLAM for more than someone is willing to pay for them for right now, that's a limit order, and it will stay in the orderbook until it is matched.

If you put in an order to sell CLAM for less than someone is willing to pay for them right now, that's a market order, and at least some of it will be filled immediately.

If you put a limit order, you may get a better price than the best price available but the market could move on you and you will not have buy/sell so you will have to settle for a worse price than you could have.

On poloniex it's common to see as much as 0.0002 or 0.0003 so as much as 5% of difference between the best bid and the best ask so you often want to try to get a better price than you would get from a market order but your order will usually not be filled fast.

[uvwvj]

14:08:52 INFO: 62,689 of 3,208,032 sets of 4.60545574 CLAM were dug up so far from the initial distribution
14:08:52 INFO: 288,711 CLAM were dug up and 220,147 CLAM were staked for a total of 508,858 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 355,323 CLAM represents 69.83% of that amount
14:08:52 INFO: if all the distributed CLAMs were dug up, the total money supply would be 14,994,548 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: the total bankroll of 12,370,052 CLAM is made up of 355,323 CLAM onsite and 12,014,729 CLAM offsite
14:08:52 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 34.81x

Market Cap of CLAM (508858) CLAM =  $664,807  USD

JD opened ~2 Months

Profit is $141,064 *10% = $14,064 * 6 (2 month increments) * 10 Years = $846,384 USD

Believe it or not Clams might be a little underpriced - 

[ranlo]

14:08:52 INFO: 62,689 of 3,208,032 sets of 4.60545574 CLAM were dug up so far from the initial distribution
14:08:52 INFO: 288,711 CLAM were dug up and 220,147 CLAM were staked for a total of 508,858 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 355,323 CLAM represents 69.83% of that amount
14:08:52 INFO: if all the distributed CLAMs were dug up, the total money supply would be 14,994,548 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: the total bankroll of 12,370,052 CLAM is made up of 355,323 CLAM onsite and 12,014,729 CLAM offsite
14:08:52 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 34.81x

Is there a total cap on CLAM or will it always produce 1 per staked block in perpetuity?

[dooglus]

14:08:52 INFO: 62,689 of 3,208,032 sets of 4.60545574 CLAM were dug up so far from the initial distribution
14:08:52 INFO: 288,711 CLAM were dug up and 220,147 CLAM were staked for a total of 508,858 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 355,323 CLAM represents 69.83% of that amount
14:08:52 INFO: if all the distributed CLAMs were dug up, the total money supply would be 14,994,548 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: the total bankroll of 12,370,052 CLAM is made up of 355,323 CLAM onsite and 12,014,729 CLAM offsite
14:08:52 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 34.81x

Is there a total cap on CLAM or will it always produce 1 per staked block in perpetuity?

The network rules as they currently stand say 1 per block forever. But the rules have changed many times in the past. I would be surprised if they didn't change again.

For a while the block reward was a lottery: a random number between 0.1 and 1000 CLAM per block, heavily weighted towards 0.1, but not really random. As a result it was gameable and so eventually was gamed, and thus changed to the current system. Before the lottery, the reward depended on the age of the coin that was staking.

[SuperClam]

14:08:52 INFO: 62,689 of 3,208,032 sets of 4.60545574 CLAM were dug up so far from the initial distribution
14:08:52 INFO: 288,711 CLAM were dug up and 220,147 CLAM were staked for a total of 508,858 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 355,323 CLAM represents 69.83% of that amount
14:08:52 INFO: if all the distributed CLAMs were dug up, the total money supply would be 14,994,548 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: the total bankroll of 12,370,052 CLAM is made up of 355,323 CLAM onsite and 12,014,729 CLAM offsite
14:08:52 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 34.81x

Is there a total cap on CLAM or will it always produce 1 per staked block in perpetuity?

The network rules as they currently stand say 1 per block forever. But the rules have changed many times in the past. I would be surprised if they didn't change again.
For a while the block reward was a lottery: a random number between 0.1 and 1000 CLAM per block, heavily weighted towards 0.1, but not really random. As a result it was gameable and so eventually was gamed, and thus changed to the current system. Before the lottery, the reward depended on the age of the coin that was staking.

Accurate as always, dooglus

CLAM is a consensus supported p2p open source project.

The current consensus provides for roughly 3% inflation (less systemic deflation) in perpetuity.


There have been some ideas, including demurrage and proof-of-burn, that have been discussed; none of which are any where near "agreed", let alone coded.  And barring a fundamental change to the incentive structure such as the above; the current intention is to proceed with the monetary policy as it is set out in the current code base.

[ranlo]

14:08:52 INFO: 62,689 of 3,208,032 sets of 4.60545574 CLAM were dug up so far from the initial distribution
14:08:52 INFO: 288,711 CLAM were dug up and 220,147 CLAM were staked for a total of 508,858 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 355,323 CLAM represents 69.83% of that amount
14:08:52 INFO: if all the distributed CLAMs were dug up, the total money supply would be 14,994,548 CLAM
14:08:52 INFO: the total bankroll of 12,370,052 CLAM is made up of 355,323 CLAM onsite and 12,014,729 CLAM offsite
14:08:52 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 34.81x

Is there a total cap on CLAM or will it always produce 1 per staked block in perpetuity?

The network rules as they currently stand say 1 per block forever. But the rules have changed many times in the past. I would be surprised if they didn't change again.
For a while the block reward was a lottery: a random number between 0.1 and 1000 CLAM per block, heavily weighted towards 0.1, but not really random. As a result it was gameable and so eventually was gamed, and thus changed to the current system. Before the lottery, the reward depended on the age of the coin that was staking.

Accurate as always, dooglus

CLAM is a consensus supported p2p open source project.

The current consensus provides for roughly 3% inflation (less systemic deflation) in perpetuity.


There have been some ideas, including demurrage and proof-of-burn, that have been discussed; none of which are any where near "agreed", let alone coded.  And barring a fundamental change to the incentive structure such as the above; the current intention is to proceed with the monetary policy as it is set out in the current code base.

Technically, all cryptos are consensus-based, though... voted on by the miners.

In any case, thanks for the clarification!

[chriswen]

Another thing to consider is whether profit staking is actually profit as it increases the money supply.

[dooglus]

Another thing to consider is whether profit staking is actually profit as it increases the money supply.

At least part of it is profit, since not all CLAMs are trying to stake. There are thousands on poloniex which never get to stake, for instance. The ~15 million that haven't been dug up also aren't staking, so by staking you're increasing your share of the total money supply.

[CoinDiver]

What's the easiest way to claim the clams from an old bitcoinqt wallet?

[coric]

What's the easiest way to claim the clams from an old bitcoinqt wallet?

I used the just-dice website, because at the time the Clam client for OSX didn't exist yet. Transferred all to a new bitcoin address, went on bitcoinqt through the list (listaddressgroupings on qt console) then entered the private key of the empty (funded) ones.

[chriswen]

Well things are shaping up.  I think there is a bit more liquidity which is good.

[cloverme]

The network rules as they currently stand say 1 per block forever. But the rules have changed many times in the past. I would be surprised if they didn't change again.

For a while the block reward was a lottery: a random number between 0.1 and 1000 CLAM per block, heavily weighted towards 0.1, but not really random. As a result it was gameable and so eventually was gamed, and thus changed to the current system. Before the lottery, the reward depended on the age of the coin that was staking.

Was that the "pearl reward" that I hear about every now and again or is it something else?

[chriswen]

The network rules as they currently stand say 1 per block forever. But the rules have changed many times in the past. I would be surprised if they didn't change again.

For a while the block reward was a lottery: a random number between 0.1 and 1000 CLAM per block, heavily weighted towards 0.1, but not really random. As a result it was gameable and so eventually was gamed, and thus changed to the current system. Before the lottery, the reward depended on the age of the coin that was staking.

Was that the "pearl reward" that I hear about every now and again or is it something else?

yeah that was the pearl reward.

[dooglus]

Was that the "pearl reward" that I hear about every now and again or is it something else?

yeah that was the pearl reward.

You're thinking of "proof of pearl", and I think it's something to do with a mining pool run by the CLAM developers. I never paid it much attention because I don't mine, but from the little I read about it I think you point your mining gear at their pool, they mine whatever altcoin is most profitable, and use it to buy CLAM on the exchange, then send you the CLAM they bought. There was something about the payouts being long lived - slow to start up and slow to die off.

I've not heard of it for a while now. I don't know if it's still a thing or not. You could ask on the CLAM thread or on #clams on freenode IRC. Or ask creative or xploited if you see them in the JD chat.

[SuperClam]

The network rules as they currently stand say 1 per block forever. But the rules have changed many times in the past. I would be surprised if they didn't change again.
For a while the block reward was a lottery: a random number between 0.1 and 1000 CLAM per block, heavily weighted towards 0.1, but not really random. As a result it was gameable and so eventually was gamed, and thus changed to the current system. Before the lottery, the reward depended on the age of the coin that was staking.

Was that the "pearl reward" that I hear about every now and again or is it something else?

There is some ambiguity; there are three concepts that have at times been called "proof-of-pearl".

1. A new payout system that existed at a since shut-down multi-pool, which featured long-term payouts similar to p2pool, but much longer "n" periods.

2. The CLAM lottery.  An algorithm for determining random block reward, which has also since been removed due to exploits.

3. I have even heard the CLAM distribution, officially called Proof-Of-Chain, referred to as Proof-of-pearl.