Just-Dice.com : now with added CLAMs : Play or Invest

[blueparrot]

any chance of making it 10 offsite commands per day?
I hate the limit of 5 and hit it every day (i regularly switch between degening away
my CLAM and investing them).

Would you please consider increasing it?
Or are there any real disadvantages why you can´t allow a higher limit?

[1715700919]

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[dooglus]

I'm not sure it's worth the effort to go back and try to work out "what would have happened" - because you'll never get it right. My investment would have diluted others' investments, meaning they earned less, and so would have had less to gamble with, etc.

I've set up a new account with a 100x multiplier and will just leave it alone. I won't repeat the "/offsite max" at all, I'll just let it ride.

Remind me in a few weeks to post the results if I didn't do it already.

I didn't see anyone reminding me, but I just remembered on my own...

The stats on the left are the old 1x account, and on the right is the 100x account:

Dec 12 2014     0.00%   100.00%
Dec 15 2014     3.64%   103.64%
Dec 22 2014     5.02%   108.85%
Dec 29 2014     2.09%   111.13%
Jan  5 2015     8.16%   120.20%
Jan 12 2015     5.28%   126.55%
Jan 19 2015     3.55%   131.04%
Jan 26 2015     2.10%   133.79%
Feb  2 2015     2.10%   136.60%
Feb  9 2015     1.94%   139.24%
Feb 16 2015     1.93%   141.93%
Feb 23 2015     1.95%   144.70%
Mar  2 2015     1.81%   147.32%         Mar  7 2015     0.00%   100.00%
Mar  9 2015     1.77%   149.93%         Mar  9 2015     0.64%   100.64%
Mar 16 2015     1.73%   152.53%         Mar 16 2015     2.53%   103.18%
Mar 23 2015     1.74%   155.18%         Mar 23 2015     4.01%   107.32%
Mar 30 2015     1.67%   157.78%         Mar 30 2015     2.06%   109.53%
                                                                       
Mar 31 2015     0.24%   158.15%         Mar 31 2015     0.47%   110.04%

Note that I haven't changed the /offsite setting for the 100x account at all; I've just let it ride.

Its offsite amount is now only 90.97x. That's to be expected - the offsite amount hasn't changed while the onsite amount has grown, and so the total (offsite+onsite) is now only 91 times the onsite amount, where it used to be 100 times.

[dooglus]

any chance of making it 10 offsite commands per day?
I hate the limit of 5 and hit it every day (i regularly switch between degening away
my CLAM and investing them).

Would you please consider increasing it?
Or are there any real disadvantages why you can´t allow a higher limit?

During the testing phase, where we had a bunch of people playing and investing with dummy coins and no limit on the number of times you could "/offsite", we saw that people would use /offsite very frequently and as a result the maximum profit per bet would bounce up and down wildly.

I put the rate limit in place in response to that testing, but the limit is probably too strict.

I'll try increasing it from 5 up to 12 times per 24 hours. There are enough large investors now that the actions of a single one of them hopefully won't have too much effect on the maximum profit per bet.

[micalith]

I'm a little confused about how the investing works.

Since I invested, the site profit has gone up from 50k to 65k, a 23% cumulative increase. I know that this does not include staked Clams. During that time, my investment profit, which includes staked Clams, has gone up by nearly 10%. When looking at my commission history, the total profit there since I invested is about 0.08% of my investment.

I'm confused. If investors get 90%, and house gets 10% of the 1% edge, then I would have thought that I should have a cumulative profit of 20.7% (90% of 23%) not including staked Clams.

[dooglus]

I'm a little confused about how the investing works.

Since I invested, the site profit has gone up from 50k to 65k, a 23% cumulative increase.

[...]I should have a cumulative profit of 20.7% (90% of 23%)

Think of it this way.

The total amount invested is 1000.
In the first month the site makes a profit of 10 (1%).
Then you invest.
In the 2nd month the site makes another profit of 10 (another ~1%). Total profit is now 20.

You say "hey, profit went from 10 to 20. It doubled! When did I only make 1%?"

Do you see the error in your thinking?

The fact that the profit doubled is of no importance. You invested into a bankroll which grew from 1010 to 1020. That's about a 1% growth, and so you got about 1% growth on your investment.

You also need to take into account that different investors use different amounts of "offsite investment". See the Just-Dice FAQ tab for details. Your share of the profits is proportional to your total of (onsite + offsite), as is everyone else's. Your share of the staking is proportional to just your onsite coins, since they're the only ones the site can stake for you.

Edit: I just re-read your post, and found a bigger problem:

During that time, my investment profit, which includes staked Clams, has gone up by nearly 10%.

That seems wrong. Your investment profit started at zero, and is now presumably positive. That's not a 10% increase, that's an infinite percentage increase. "The site profit doubled so my investment profit doubled" isn't good logic. The only similar statement that is close to being true is: "the site's bankroll (onsite + offsite) went up by X%, so my total investment (onsite + offsite) should also have gone up by X% (until 10% commission is taken at the end of the week, at which point it will have gone up by 0.90*X%, and more because of staking rewards"

[micalith]

Edit: I just re-read your post, and found a bigger problem:

During that time, my investment profit, which includes staked Clams, has gone up by nearly 10%.

That seems wrong. Your investment profit started at zero, and is now presumably positive. That's not a 10% increase, that's an infinite percentage increase. "The site profit doubled so my investment profit doubled" isn't good logic. The only similar statement that is close to being true is: "the site's bankroll (onsite + offsite) went up by X%, so my total investment (onsite + offsite) should also have gone up by X% (until 10% commission is taken at the end of the week, at which point it will have gone up by 0.90*X%, and more because of staking rewards"

I meant that the total of my investment profit has gone from zero to nearly 10% of my investment. That doensn't matter now though.

I'm a little confused about how the investing works.

Since I invested, the site profit has gone up from 50k to 65k, a 23% cumulative increase.

[...]I should have a cumulative profit of 20.7% (90% of 23%)

Think of it this way.

The total amount invested is 1000.
In the first month the site makes a profit of 10 (1%).
Then you invest.
In the 2nd month the site makes another profit of 10 (another ~1%). Total profit is now 20.

You say "hey, profit went from 10 to 20. It doubled! When did I only make 1%?"

Do you see the error in your thinking?

The fact that the profit doubled is of no importance. You invested into a bankroll which grew from 1010 to 1020. That's about a 1% growth, and so you got about 1% growth on your investment.

I had already read the FAQs about onsite and offsite etc, but still couldn't figure it out. I see now how I mistook the increase of profit percentage for the increase of the total invested percentage. Thanks

I'm basically trying to figure out how to delineate my stakes profit from my share of the house edge profit. When I click on the 'commission' button in the 'History' tab, does this show my investment increase due to house edge, and the commission taken from that for just-dice, or is there a different way to view what I've gained from my share of the house edge?

[dooglus]

I'm basically trying to figure out how to delineate my stakes profit from my share of the house edge profit. When I click on the 'commission' button in the 'History' tab, does this show my investment increase due to house edge, and the commission taken from that for just-dice, or is there a different way to view what I've gained from my share of the house edge?

I don't think the site makes it very clear where your profits came from.

Let's look at a random user for an example. This guy hasn't touched his investment for the last couple of months, so things aren't complicated by invest/divest events.

Here's his "investments" report:



And his "commission" report:



Looking at the most recent week, we see his "profit" is shown as 0.00612616 and his commission is 10% of that. That is his profit from the house edge. It doesn't include his staking profit.

Each time we stake a block, 90% of the block's reward is distributed to investors, and 10% is taken as commission, immediately. Your share of the block reward is added to your investment, and also to your "base", which means it won't be seen as "profit" at the end of the week, and you won't have to pay any further commission on it.

If you look at the guy's "base" figure and how it changed this last week, you'll see it went up from 133.78519775 to 136.04771387. That's a rise of 2.26251612, and represents his total profit for the week, including from staking.

Finally, if you look at https://just-dice.com/wagered.txt you can see the site profit and staked amounts per day. For the week in question we see:

      date          wagered     site profit          staked
---------- ---------------- --------------- ---------------
2015-03-23   32280.08882750   -488.95573006   1174.53440000
2015-03-24   19304.31453942   1068.38936662   1174.78090000
2015-03-25   19708.77282317    436.22815195   1156.77740000
2015-03-26    8256.54706064    -82.17852754   1042.92220000
2015-03-27   38255.43853499    708.48484798   1151.07280000
2015-03-28   20398.10849971   -437.13806326   1132.20130000
2015-03-29   15471.67268932   -115.29556851   1179.41620000
---------- ---------------- --------------- ---------------
                              1089.53447718   8011.70520000

ie. the site staked 8011.70520000 CLAM and won 1089.53447718 CLAM.

The guy we're looking at has no offsite investment. His 'base' went up by 2.26251612 for the week, meaning that 90% of his total profit before commission is 2.26251612, and so his total profit for the week before commission was 2.26251612/0.9 = 2.5139068 CLAM. We already saw that his profit from the house edge before commission was 0.00612616 CLAM, so his profit from staking was 2.5139068 - 0.00612616 = 2.50778064 CLAM.

Note that his profit from staking is around 400 times bigger than his profit from the house edge. That's because the site made 8 times more from staking than it did from the house edge, and the average investor has roughly a 50x offsite investment. 50 * 8 = 400.

Does that make more sense now?

If you have any questions I'll do my best to answer them. Maybe post your 'investment' and 'commission' reports if you have specific questions about them.

[organofcorti]

I'm basically trying to figure out how to delineate my stakes profit from my share of the house edge profit. When I click on the 'commission' button in the 'History' tab, does this show my investment increase due to house edge, and the commission taken from that for just-dice, or is there a different way to view what I've gained from my share of the house edge?

I don't think the site makes it very clear where your profits came from.

Let's look at a random user for an example. This guy hasn't touched his investment for the last couple of months, so things aren't complicated by invest/divest events.

....

<snip>

Thanks Doog, I'd been wondering the same thing - I didn't think the average offsite investment was so high, so I didn't realise how diluted my investment would be.

[dooglus]

Thanks Doog, I'd been wondering the same thing - I didn't think the average offsite investment was so high, so I didn't realise how diluted my investment would be.

Type /supply in the Just-Dice chat tab:

19:40:51 INFO: 67,609 of 3,208,032 sets of 4.60545574 CLAM were dug up so far from the initial distribution
19:40:51 INFO: 311,370 CLAM were dug up and 300,545 CLAM were staked for a total of 611,915 CLAM
19:40:51 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 426,829 CLAM represents 69.75% of that amount
19:40:51 INFO: if all the distributed CLAMs were dug up, the total money supply would be 15,074,946 CLAM
19:40:51 INFO: the total bankroll of 19,887,448 CLAM is made up of 426,829 CLAM onsite and 19,460,619 CLAM offsite
19:40:51 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 46.59x

[organofcorti]

Thanks Doog, I'd been wondering the same thing - I didn't think the average offsite investment was so high, so I didn't realise how diluted my investment would be.

Type /supply in the Just-Dice chat tab:

19:40:51 INFO: 67,609 of 3,208,032 sets of 4.60545574 CLAM were dug up so far from the initial distribution
19:40:51 INFO: 311,370 CLAM were dug up and 300,545 CLAM were staked for a total of 611,915 CLAM
19:40:51 INFO: Just-Dice's onsite bankroll of 426,829 CLAM represents 69.75% of that amount
19:40:51 INFO: if all the distributed CLAMs were dug up, the total money supply would be 15,074,946 CLAM
19:40:51 INFO: the total bankroll of 19,887,448 CLAM is made up of 426,829 CLAM onsite and 19,460,619 CLAM offsite
19:40:51 INFO: the average multiplier (total / onsite) is 46.59x

Thanks, I guess I should read the FAQ a bit better

I was not complaining, btw, just wondering why the commission was so low each week.

[micalith]

I'm basically trying to figure out how to delineate my stakes profit from my share of the house edge profit. When I click on the 'commission' button in the 'History' tab, does this show my investment increase due to house edge, and the commission taken from that for just-dice, or is there a different way to view what I've gained from my share of the house edge?

I don't think the site makes it very clear where your profits came from.

Let's look at a random user for an example. This guy hasn't touched his investment for the last couple of months, so things aren't complicated by invest/divest events.

....

<snip>

Thanks Doog, I'd been wondering the same thing - I didn't think the average offsite investment was so high, so I didn't realise how diluted my investment would be.

Yeah, thanks Doog for the thorough explanation! Your examples really helped to expound the principles I hadn't gotten my head around.

[MICRO]

Hey is something wrong with just-dice or cloudflare or whatever . For some reason i cant access the site says it cant display page. And sometimes i do get in but it brings me to login screen which never did before it always got me straight to the site. And i menaged to log in once then later it was down again . And i got in once more and got me to log in screen again. Rly weird.

[BayAreaCoins]

Hey is something wrong with just-dice or cloudflare or whatever . For some reason i cant access the site says it cant display page. And sometimes i do get in but it brings me to login screen which never did before it always got me straight to the site. And i menaged to log in once then later it was down again . And i got in once more and got me to log in screen again. Rly weird.

Working fine for me 

[MICRO]

Hey is something wrong with just-dice or cloudflare or whatever . For some reason i cant access the site says it cant display page. And sometimes i do get in but it brings me to login screen which never did before it always got me straight to the site. And i menaged to log in once then later it was down again . And i got in once more and got me to log in screen again. Rly weird.

Working fine for me 

Might be my isp or something . It started with some other sites to. Its just rly weird that it gets me to login screen even when i try with full access token link.

Now cant access blockchain.info, poloniex , and some other sites , it must be my isp fuckup.

Tnx for response.

[dooglus]

Might be my isp or something.

I think it must be. I've not heard about it from anyone else.

[dooglus]

I just checked in on the site and see that it has been paying out staking rewards like crazy:



It turns out we staked a block with a transaction that paid a fee of 50 CLAM. Just-Dice is set to only pay staking rewards out 2 CLAMs at a time if there's more than 5 CLAMs outstanding, else to pay the rest, so that's what it did.

So we've split the 50 CLAM fee, which was presumably paid by mistake, between all the Just-Dice investors. So what now?

Edit: it was xploited's error and he says:

16:50:00 (1) <@dooglus> hey xploited
16:50:04 (1470) <xploited> hey dooglus
16:50:11 (1) <@dooglus> what do you want me to do about that fee you paid?
16:50:49 (1470) <xploited> I mean, I did screw up. Just keep it as is... I'll learn my lesson better.

[cloverme]

I just checked in on the site and see that it has been paying out staking rewards like crazy:

It turns out we staked a block with a transaction that paid a fee of 50 CLAM. Just-Dice is set to only pay staking rewards out 2 CLAMs at a time if there's more than 5 CLAMs outstanding, else to pay the rest, so that's what it did.

So we've split the 50 CLAM fee, which was presumably paid by mistake, between all the Just-Dice investors. So what now?

Invoke golden rule of mistaken fees: "losers weepers finders keepers".

[xploited]

I just checked in on the site and see that it has been paying out staking rewards like crazy:

It turns out we staked a block with a transaction that paid a fee of 50 CLAM. Just-Dice is set to only pay staking rewards out 2 CLAMs at a time if there's more than 5 CLAMs outstanding, else to pay the rest, so that's what it did.

So we've split the 50 CLAM fee, which was presumably paid by mistake, between all the Just-Dice investors. So what now?

Invoke golden rule of mistaken fees: "losers weepers finders keepers".

I concede my 50 clams on account I should have been sleeping.. not creating raw transactions.

If it hadn't have went to JD it wouldn't even be a question, someone would be up 50 clams.

Lesson learnt!

[cloverme]

I concede my 50 clams on account I should have been sleeping.. not creating raw transactions.

If it hadn't have went to JD it wouldn't even be a question, someone would be up 50 clams.

Lesson learnt!

Ouch, I sent a clam your way... hopefully others join the gesture of goodwill.

[BayAreaCoins]

I just checked in on the site and see that it has been paying out staking rewards like crazy:



It turns out we staked a block with a transaction that paid a fee of 50 CLAM. Just-Dice is set to only pay staking rewards out 2 CLAMs at a time if there's more than 5 CLAMs outstanding, else to pay the rest, so that's what it did.

So we've split the 50 CLAM fee, which was presumably paid by mistake, between all the Just-Dice investors. So what now?

Edit: it was xploited's error and he says:

16:50:00 (1) <@dooglus> hey xploited
16:50:04 (1470) <xploited> hey dooglus
16:50:11 (1) <@dooglus> what do you want me to do about that fee you paid?
16:50:49 (1470) <xploited> I mean, I did screw up. Just keep it as is... I'll learn my lesson better.

I vote roll it back and give him his CLAMS back.

Mistakes happen and it's nice enough we are in the position to fix his mistake.

I don't think any other JD investors would be upset about that either.