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Author Topic: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game  (Read 434844 times)
GOB
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October 01, 2013, 08:27:38 PM
 #3181

Lastly, this has been a gut-wrenching experience as an investor.  I was prepared for losses, but not for the amounts sustained for 3 reasons:
1.  The speed and improbability of the losses.  We have huge losses that occur in very short order
2. Magificaition of losses inflicted upon passive investors at those who successfully "day trade" their investment. These investors sustain bigger losses than the site
3. Much harder to get back to even since investor take losses and then get diluted by new investor (or day trading ones) after the drop.  In the last example, Nakowa brought the site down to 36k BTC and then invested over 12k himself diluting all other investors by over 25%.  He causes losses (due to whatever improbable mechanism) on his wagers and then he profits from the sites over the smaller wagers which tend to behave +EV.  It seems Nakowa has been able to overcome the +EV for his large bets for whatever reason (variance, luck, a good system, a flaw in RNG or cheating)

At the very least, the risks of points 2 & 3 should be added to the FAQ in the name of full disclosure.  I must admit my morale is shot to hell at this point looking at 30%+ losses and greatly diluted bankroll percentage due to all the reinvestment (by nakowa and daytraders).

Please, please take this in the spirit in which it's intended. I'm not trying to mock you.

Mechs, in all honesty, I think you really should consider divesting, or at least severely reducing your investment. You don't seem to take this well.

I sympathize with you. I once played poker pretty regularly, and I was decent at it. Eventually I made my way up the limits a bit, but then I had a string of bad beats at a couple grand a pop, and I realized it was too much, I couldn't take the swings. So I stopped and played less regularly, and only 1-3NL $100 max tables. Here on Just Dice, same deal, I'd love to put in a hundred BTC, but it's too much risk for me. So I was at 15btc for a while, and with the recent variance I dropped to 10. I'm in it more because I find the website to be fascinating than because I think it's a rock solid investment (in fact, I think investment is a misnomer here).

From your postings I think it's abundantly clear that this is too much risk/variance for you. Maybe just re-invest when there's variable risk, or doog drops to 1/10 kelly or something. But not your full stack of Bitcoins.

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October 01, 2013, 08:54:01 PM
 #3182

Lastly, this has been a gut-wrenching experience as an investor.  I was prepared for losses, but not for the amounts sustained for 3 reasons:
1.  The speed and improbability of the losses.  We have huge losses that occur in very short order
2. Magificaition of losses inflicted upon passive investors at those who successfully "day trade" their investment. These investors sustain bigger losses than the site
3. Much harder to get back to even since investor take losses and then get diluted by new investor (or day trading ones) after the drop.  In the last example, Nakowa brought the site down to 36k BTC and then invested over 12k himself diluting all other investors by over 25%.  He causes losses (due to whatever improbable mechanism) on his wagers and then he profits from the sites over the smaller wagers which tend to behave +EV.  It seems Nakowa has been able to overcome the +EV for his large bets for whatever reason (variance, luck, a good system, a flaw in RNG or cheating)

At the very least, the risks of points 2 & 3 should be added to the FAQ in the name of full disclosure.  I must admit my morale is shot to hell at this point looking at 30%+ losses and greatly diluted bankroll percentage due to all the reinvestment (by nakowa and daytraders).

Please, please take this in the spirit in which it's intended. I'm not trying to mock you.

Mechs, in all honesty, I think you really should consider divesting, or at least severely reducing your investment. You don't seem to take this well.

I sympathize with you. I once played poker pretty regularly, and I was decent at it. Eventually I made my way up the limits a bit, but then I had a string of bad beats at a couple grand a pop, and I realized it was too much, I couldn't take the swings. So I stopped and played less regularly, and only 1-3NL $100 max tables. Here on Just Dice, same deal, I'd love to put in a hundred BTC, but it's too much risk for me. So I was at 15btc for a while, and with the recent variance I dropped to 10. I'm in it more because I find the website to be fascinating than because I think it's a rock solid investment (in fact, I think investment is a misnomer here).

From your postings I think it's abundantly clear that this is too much risk/variance for you. Maybe just re-invest when there's variable risk, or doog drops to 1/10 kelly or something. But not your full stack of Bitcoins.

I think your reply was very polite.  I went into this investment realizing I could lose coins - even all of them due to fraud.  I did not anticipate the amount and speed through "normal" gambling activity since noone could predict a Nakowa and the results he has had.  The max profit did not really enter into the equation when first considering this investment  since I figured noone would be spamming 300+ BTC bets. Obviously, in hindsight, this was an incorrect assumption.  My dilemma, like the majority of investors (esp the passive ones), is I am already significantly down in my investment but I do believe in the math.  To quit when down due to variance is the exact opposite thing to do.  I am prepared to lose the entire investment without BKing myself - even if Doog ran off with the coins or was robbed, or etc.

It just that we are so far from what would be considered likely results that it is hard to reconcile.  And when you are 35% down and getting constantly diluted, it is frustrating indeed.  The house luck suggests a 0.51% historical edge which is perplexing to me after 150M bets.  Anyway, I know I am merely vocalizing the concerns of many other investors and concerns Doog himself has brought up.
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October 01, 2013, 09:05:12 PM
 #3183

I don't like the investment fee, I think investment should be encouraged by being totally free.

On the contrary, I'm entertaining the idea that a divestment fee applied on profit only could be good for the long term investors and thus the Casino. It would be a fee independent from the weekly one, and it could be redistributed between investors that did not divest, being a reward for maintaining a stable roll for the Casino. At first sight it seems to me a nice way to minimize the risk of "bank run", which was the main concern during nakowas winning streaks.
I like a divestment fee and it should only kick in if you divest more than once every 10 days. 

Investment or divestment fee, it doesn't really make a difference to long term investors, though I slightly prefer the investment fee as it's expected to be a lesser amount for long-term investors.

I think it would be interesting to have the fee be paid directly to the site bankroll, i.e. currently invested investors. This creates a nice incentive for folks to stay invested for the long term.
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October 01, 2013, 09:57:02 PM
 #3184

I think your reply was very polite.  I went into this investment realizing I could lose coins - even all of them due to fraud.  I did not anticipate the amount and speed through "normal" gambling activity since noone could predict a Nakowa and the results he has had.  The max profit did not really enter into the equation when first considering this investment  since I figured noone would be spamming 300+ BTC bets. Obviously, in hindsight, this was an incorrect assumption.  My dilemma, like the majority of investors (esp the passive ones), is I am already significantly down in my investment but I do believe in the math.  To quit when down due to variance is the exact opposite thing to do.  I am prepared to lose the entire investment without BKing myself - even if Doog ran off with the coins or was robbed, or etc.

It just that we are so far from what would be considered likely results that it is hard to reconcile.  And when you are 35% down and getting constantly diluted, it is frustrating indeed.  The house luck suggests a 0.51% historical edge which is perplexing to me after 150M bets.  Anyway, I know I am merely vocalizing the concerns of many other investors and concerns Doog himself has brought up.

I'm glad you took it well, I was worried when I pressed send.

What I'd say is I feel your pain in trying to make up for your losses, but keep in mind that that's a classic gambling problem. In fact:

http://jeu-aidereference.qc.ca/www/signs_problem_gambling_en.asp

#2 Chasing losses.

The reality that 35% you lost is gone. And, honestly unlikely to return with fractional kelly and the increasing value of bitcoin. So you need to ask yourself what is the best option for you as of right now. Well, as of right now your confidence is shaken, you can't convince yourself that the site is not in fact hacked (that 0.51% historical edge/luck thing you've referenced a few times now is incorrect: look up dooglus' explanation of why that is), you're afraid of the varience. So drop your investment a bit until you're confident again that it is a good investment. Again, not trying to spread FUD, for everyone, just saying in your case to drop it until you're comfortable again. I did the same thing. I had 15 invested, Nakowa had an enormous win, so I divested, investigated, was convinced the site wasn't hacked and re-invested.

Anyway, hope that helps. I'll leave it alone now Smiley

"Bitcoin is to bank transfers, credit cards & Paypal, as Email is to letters, faxes & FedEx." 1BAMFrk1qJai5u7UnrhDXoBudGwbYynams
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October 01, 2013, 09:58:07 PM
 #3185

Quote
It just that we are so far from what would be considered likely results that it is hard to reconcile.  And when you are 35% down and getting constantly diluted, it is frustrating indeed.  The house luck suggests a 0.51% historical edge which is perplexing to me after 150M bets.  Anyway, I know I am merely vocalizing the concerns of many other investors and concerns Doog himself has brought up.

The JD we have now is not the same JD as when I first invested.  Investor behavior is different, for one thing.  Nor is it the same JD that we will have whenever dooglus implements the variable max profit settings.

I think it's reasonable to divest, stand aside, and see how things go with the new features.
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October 01, 2013, 11:05:17 PM
 #3186

My favourite bit was "How can you trust me? Well, you can't..." Smiley

Are you planning to press charges or just going to let it slide?

Is this something I have any chance of winning?  There's an email address on the ticket, but I imagine it's a throwaway.  He came into the chat asking "did you read my email?" so I'll have his IP address logged too.  How illegal is what he did?  He ended up saying sorry after all.  That makes it all better.  Right?

Quote
(167873) <agatha> DOOGLOUS, can you check your e-mail please, it's from John
(167873) <agatha> Okay DOOGLUS, so are people really retarted? DOGLOUS IS CHEATING
(167873) <agatha> I HAVE PROOF THAT DOUGLUS IS CHEATING!!!
(167873) <agatha> GIVE ME 5 minutes, to write it out, exactly how!
(167873) <agatha> PROOF that DOUGLOUS IS CHEATING: DOUGLOUS can open any random account, let's say \"PLAYERX\", NOW site's database will generate secret key for PLAYERX, however PLAYERX doesn't know the secret key because PLAYERX doesn't have access to database. Guess what? D
(167873) <agatha> Douglas has access to database because he owns the site! Douglas can easily login and pretend to be playerX, since douglas knows what the secret key, he can make a prediction of let's say the next 100 bets. Douglas has the ability to know what the next
(167873) <agatha> 100 bets will be!!! So douglas can login as PlayerX, deposit his own money, let's say 50K, and then make ACCURATE prediction BETS!!!! he can make on purpose, let's say 60, loses, and 40 wins. out of those 100 bets, he will ensure that he will be on the
(167873) <agatha>  winning side guaranteed. He is doing this EVERY day. And you people cannot even notice it!!! So he is stealing investors money, because he is able to predict the roll outcomes. There, are you happy now DOUGLAS?
(167873) <agatha> DOUGLAS, it's not proof, but it is EASILY POSSIBLE
(167873) <agatha> So are you guys okay, the Douglas has 100% ability to be Nakawoa, make accurate large bets and WIN?
(167873) <agatha> It's impossible to proove that Douglas is Nakaowa. However it's 100% possible that Douglas can be Nakaowa, and it's 100% possible that a whale like Nakanowa CAN 100% predict the outcome of bets to his advantage!!!!
(167873) <agatha> PMPMPM, if you had the ability to take 50K in a day, without being noticed would you do it? Douglas has same ability!
(167873) <agatha> The answer is morality
(167873) <agatha> ALLOVER no I am not, if you had programming knowledge, you would understand!
(167873) <agatha> DOOGLOUS, congrats to you, people know the information, and still choose to play or invest, is this a retarded world? WOW, I'm at disbelief!!!
(167873) <agatha> DOOGLOUS, i guess you have people under mind control too, let's leave it at that
(167873) <agatha> DOOGLOUS Smiley
(167873) <agatha> DOOGLOUS, I apologize for that e-mail. I'd like to meet you one day, and have a beer! HAH Smiley Enjoy, this. It's very beattiful.
(167873) <agatha> DOOGLOUS, I won't go farther than that. It's pretty pointless. Good night.
(167873) <agatha> DOOGLOUS, okay, good night Smiley

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October 01, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
 #3187

Damn, that guy really doesn't understand the word "trust".

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October 01, 2013, 11:08:16 PM
 #3188

graphs should be automated.
investing/divesting should be made easier and faster. (allow remove 2fa for invest/divest only)
multiple chats should be implemented. (one with only investors, one for just high rollers)
return to 1% max profit
no invest/divest fees
flat fee on just profits, even as high as 25%
rewards for high rollers (special colors, characters, names, free rolls, separate chat, etc)

no specific order.

JD should be known for it's simplicity yes, but that doesn't mean a lack of innovation.

of course this is not a democracy. there are no votes. just opinions.
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October 01, 2013, 11:08:35 PM
 #3189

Is this something I have any chance of winning?  There's an email address on the ticket, but I imagine it's a throwaway.  He came into the chat asking "did you read my email?" so I'll have his IP address logged too.  How illegal is what he did?  He ended up saying sorry after all.  That makes it all better.  Right?

You cannot win anything, as it is with criminal prosecution. He can face jail time for trying to extort you. I think I'd chuckle and let it slide too (I'm lazy), but he might do this to someone else who's more gullible then you in the future too. Blackmail is despicable ...
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October 01, 2013, 11:25:20 PM
 #3190

My favourite bit was "How can you trust me? Well, you can't..." Smiley

We should invent a "provably fair blackmailing" to help the poor, defenseless guys like this one...  Tongue
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October 02, 2013, 12:27:24 AM
 #3191

Is this something I have any chance of winning?  There's an email address on the ticket, but I imagine it's a throwaway.  He came into the chat asking "did you read my email?" so I'll have his IP address logged too.  How illegal is what he did?  He ended up saying sorry after all.  That makes it all better.  Right?

You cannot win anything, as it is with criminal prosecution. He can face jail time for trying to extort you. I think I'd chuckle and let it slide too (I'm lazy), but he might do this to someone else who's more gullible then you in the future too. Blackmail is despicable ...

How do you file charges of extortion when you are running an illegal casino? The royal mounted police would have a field day with that.

"Mr. Officer, I have this online casino in which some days up to $150M are wagered, but do not worry, its just magic Internet money... "

Cheesy

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October 02, 2013, 12:59:07 AM
 #3192

I don't think we should have instant investing and divesting.  Cause people could actually trade even smaller ranges with instant which is not the best.  I think a 15 s to 30 s delay on investing and divesting will be a good idea.  And this should solve short term day trading.  It will still not protect on longer term day trading but that should be fine.  As shown before there can be some benefits to day trading.

Also, having an investing and divesting fee doesn't sound like the worst thing in the world but that might be against Dooglus's vision for the site.
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October 02, 2013, 02:04:03 AM
 #3193

Why is just-dice so addictive? 

Once you click you just cant stop(unless you run out of BTC)
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October 02, 2013, 03:02:44 AM
 #3194

How delusional are people to care about others day trading.  If they divest it increases your share of a +ev pie, there's nothing else to it.  Makes me wonder about the world each and every day.

The only thing that would make sense would be to alter it if it lagged up the system because of bots micro trading or something physical.




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October 02, 2013, 04:55:35 AM
 #3195

What if instead of investing a specific amount of bitcoin, there was an option to invest a specific percentage of the bankroll? For example, as others change their investment, yours would automatically adjust stay the same percentage, assuming you had the balance to support it. Not sure if it would realistic, but it is an interesting idea.

Edit: This would be in addition to the existing investing method.
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October 02, 2013, 05:27:41 AM
 #3196

Something horrible just happened:

Quote
21:41:11 (12141) <mechs> Deb: Doog around?
21:41:24 (1) <dooglus> hi mechs
21:41:40 (12141) <mechs> Hey Doog, can you help me with a withdrawal?
21:41:47 (1) <dooglus> sure mechs
21:42:36 (1) <dooglus> mechs: request it on the site as usual. if the hot wallet doesn't have enough, I'll do it manually
21:42:45 (12141) <mechs> ok
21:45:28 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I out request through
21:45:32 (12141) <mechs> put
21:45:46 manually debiting user 12141 with amount 1767.51610189
21:45:47 (1) <dooglus> mechs: ok
21:45:53 (12141) <mechs> doog: ty
21:46:07 (1) <dooglus> mechs: sent
21:46:12 (1) <dooglus> got it?
21:46:33 (1) <dooglus> mechs: I had just enough. 108 BTC left in my wallet now
21:47:06 (12141) <mechs> doog: I do ot see it yet
21:47:09 (12141) <mechs> not
21:48:17 (12141) <mechs> Doog: can u send me the txid?
21:48:26 (1) <dooglus> here mechs?
21:48:33 (12141) <mechs> hold on, let me check blockchain.info
21:49:02 (1) <dooglus> mechs; it's confirmed already
21:49:24 (12141) <mechs> ummm
21:49:26 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I hope you kidding
21:50:02 (1) <dooglus> mechs: I hope you gave the right address to withdraw to
21:50:26 (169587) <crissy> we can only hope
21:50:26 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I put in my emergency withdrawal one!
21:50:32 (12141) <mechs> Doog: but you used a old one
21:50:43 (12141) <mechs> Doog: how that happen....oh shit
21:51:02 (145007) <fizzwont> O.o indeed
21:51:18 (1) <dooglus> mechs: I sent it to the one you put in the withdrawal request
21:51:19 (1) <dooglus> it's different than the emergency address
21:51:35 (145007) <fizzwont> hopefully not a paste-fail
21:51:38 (12141) <mechs> DoogL no i changed it to the emergency one! Put it kept the old one
21:51:45 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I think that was an old paper wallet which is gone
21:51:49 (12141) <mechs> fuck fuck fuck
21:52:01 (145007) <fizzwont> omg
21:52:14 (1) <dooglus> no way
21:52:28 (2) <Deb> Sad i'm scared to ask what that means, exactly
21:52:45 (145007) <fizzwont> mechs has got to be pulling our chain
21:52:57 (1) <dooglus> it sounds like it means I just sent mechs' entire balance to an address nobody can access
21:53:13 (145311) <Orrus> uh oh
21:53:17 (145311) <Orrus> shit just got real
21:53:22 (12141) <mechs> Doog: it all gone.
21:53:32 (145007) <fizzwont> gotta check that address 5 times before pasting in for withdrawal imo
21:53:35 (12141) <mechs> Doog: it fucked up. I changed the address
21:53:39 (145007) <fizzwont> mechs: how can you not have the key ?
21:53:44 (12141) <mechs> Doog: but you sent it to an old withdrawone
21:53:52 (2) <Deb> omg Sad no way
21:53:52 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I am fucked
21:53:55 (1) <dooglus> mechs: you never withdrew to that address before. how did it get into the form?
21:54:04 (145007) <fizzwont> ohboy
21:54:08 (169694) <crissy> you throw out your paper wallets?
21:54:11 (169694) <crissy> i keep all mine, just in case
21:54:17 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I am going to vomit
21:54:17 (145311) <Orrus> Dont think its doog's fault if you gave wrong addy
21:54:25 (145007) <fizzwont> why would you throw out a wallet/private key ?
21:54:35 (12141) <mechs> Doog:I did withdraw to their once before
21:54:39 (145007) <fizzwont> sounds odd
21:54:43 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I 100% put in the new address
21:54:50 (12141) <mechs> Doog: J-D fucked up
21:54:55 (12141) <mechs> Doog: that paper wallet gone
21:54:57 (145007) <fizzwont> ohboy
21:55:12 (169587) <crissy> fun
21:55:16 (145311) <Orrus> Doog how often do people try to scam you? A daily basis?
21:55:28 (145007) <fizzwont> --^
21:55:29 (1) <dooglus> mechs: I sent to the address you requested
21:55:30 (12141) <mechs> Doog: i gotta go - doog, how could you not double heck such a large withdrawal???
21:55:40 (160345) <SickWhale> how much was it?
21:55:52 (1) <dooglus> mechs: I did double check it. I always do
21:55:52 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I did ot! Your site fucked up;.. I put in new address but it still showing old one
21:55:52 (145007) <fizzwont> just trolling imo
21:55:53 (12141) <mechs> Doog: I gotta go, just lost 1767 BTC
21:56:17 (169587) <crissy> fun
21:56:17 (160345) <SickWhale> oh shit
21:56:18 (145007) <fizzwont> if that's the case, lets watch the address, i bet it moves within 10 years Smiley

Associated logfile content:

Quote
2013-10-02 04:41:11 (12141) chat: <mechs> Deb: Doog around?
2013-10-02 04:41:40 (12141) chat: <mechs> Hey Doog, can you help me with a withdrawal?
2013-10-02 04:42:45 (12141) chat: <mechs> ok
2013-10-02 04:43:43 (12141) setting btcaddr to "1AG5ahS2rMrPy8XmDZQcuB1X76kcWnTcqi" type addr (1AG5ahS2rMrPy8XmDZQcuB1X76kcWnTcqi)
2013-10-02 04:43:49 (12141) ACTION (divest, "[addr]") ALL 1767.51610189 BTC
2013-10-02 04:45:07 (12141) requiring 7 confirmations to withdraw 1767.51610189 BTC
2013-10-02 04:45:08 (12141) sending 1767.51600189 to 19WHFhiB9aCeUvWUsJSHQHFnVv837cqTSY
2013-10-02 04:45:08 (12141) ACTION (withdraw, "[addr]") Error: Insufficient funds (code -4)
2013-10-02 04:45:28 (12141) chat: <mechs> Doog: I out request through
2013-10-02 04:45:33 (12141) chat: <mechs> put
2013-10-02 04:45:45 (12141) ACTION (manual, "[addr]") manually debited 1767.51610189 by user 1
2013-10-02 04:45:45 (12141) crediting -1767.51610189 BTC
2013-10-02 04:45:45 (12141) added log(withdraw) eid: 156122 value: {"amount":1767.51610189,"address":"manual debit","txid":"","eid":156122}
2013-10-02 04:45:53 (12141) chat: <mechs> doog: ty
2013-10-02 04:47:06 (12141) chat: <mechs> doog: I do ot see it yet
2013-10-02 04:47:11 (12141) chat: <mechs> not
2013-10-02 04:48:17 (12141) chat: <mechs> Doog: can u send me the txid?
2013-10-02 04:48:34 (12141) chat: <mechs> hold on, let me check blockchain.info
2013-10-02 04:48:52 (12141) setting btcaddr to "1AG5ahS2rMrPy8XmDZQcuB1X76kcWnTcqi" type addr (1AG5ahS2rMrPy8XmDZQcuB1X76kcWnTcqi)
2013-10-02 04:49:24 (12141) chat: <mechs> ummm
2013-10-02 04:49:35 (12141) chat: <mechs> Doog: I hope you kidding

So it looks like he changed his emergency withdrawal address, then requested the withdrawal, used the default address, which is whatever he used last time he made a withdrawal request, and submitted it.  Then changed the emergency withdrawal address again, to the same address again.

In the chat I said he'd never withdrawn to the 19W... address before - but the site remembers the addresses you have *tried* to withdraw to before, even if the withdrawal fails because there are insufficient funds in the hot wallet and I ended up making the withdrawal manually.

I hope there's some way he can find the old paper wallet that he withdrew to.  I feel sick and can only imagine how mechs is feeling.

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October 02, 2013, 05:46:39 AM
 #3197

So is that mech's fault?  I'm confused who is at fault.




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October 02, 2013, 05:54:33 AM
 #3198

Isn't there a way to set up a server that generates the server seeds and sends them to just-dice, but that doesn't allow those seeds to be read out ahead of time, i.e. before they are sent?

Whoever has access to that server has access to the seeds.

A better solution would be to have a server that does nothing except generate and store seeds, then generate rolls on demand.  That would reduce the attack surface - gaining access to the JD server wouldn't give you access to the "roll server".  But someone would still have access to the roll server, and hence access to the seeds.

I keep asking whenever it comes up whether anyone can find a way to make the site provably fair for investors.  I'd love not to be constantly suspected of cheating (so we can go back to speculating at what point I'm going to steal the cold wallet), but I don't see it happening.  If there was no way of me cheating, then presumably there would be no way of anyone else cheating either.  Then we could know for sure that nakowa is "just lucky" and get on with waiting for him to crash and burn.  So if anyone has any ideas how we can end this nightmare, please do speak up.

Remember, it has to be provably fair.  So "use random.org" doesn't cut it.  Similarly anything that relies on precise timestamps can be ruled out, I think.

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October 02, 2013, 05:57:21 AM
 #3199

So is that mech's fault?  I'm confused who is at fault.
I would say so. He entered a wrong address and got fucked up. Bad luck for him.

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October 02, 2013, 06:02:55 AM
 #3200

Isn't there a way to set up a server that generates the server seeds and sends them to just-dice, but that doesn't allow those seeds to be read out ahead of time, i.e. before they are sent?

Whoever has access to that server has access to the seeds.

A better solution would be to have a server that does nothing except generate and store seeds, then generate rolls on demand.  That would reduce the attack surface - gaining access to the JD server wouldn't give you access to the "roll server".  But someone would still have access to the roll server, and hence access to the seeds.

I keep asking whenever it comes up whether anyone can find a way to make the site provably fair for investors.  I'd love not to be constantly suspected of cheating (so we can go back to speculating at what point I'm going to steal the cold wallet), but I don't see it happening.  If there was no way of me cheating, then presumably there would be no way of anyone else cheating either.  Then we could know for sure that nakowa is "just lucky" and get on with waiting for him to crash and burn.  So if anyone has any ideas how we can end this nightmare, please do speak up.

Remember, it has to be provably fair.  So "use random.org" doesn't cut it.  Similarly anything that relies on precise timestamps can be ruled out, I think.

Doog: I mentioned this earlier, maybe it was too stupid to deserve a response but could your software and historical rolls be audited by a trusted third party (such as the one used by pokerstars which gave me this: PokerStars shuffle verified by Cigital, PokerStars submitted extensive information about the PokerStars random number generator (RNG) to Cigital. We asked this trusted resource to perform an in-depth analysis of the randomness of the output of the RNG, and its implementation in the shuffling of the cards on PokerStars) or does that lead to potential exploitation as well?




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