Bitcoin Forum
November 14, 2024, 03:53:37 AM *
News: Check out the artwork 1Dq created to commemorate this forum's 15th anniversary
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 [195] 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 ... 252 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game  (Read 435357 times)
dooglus (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2940
Merit: 1333



View Profile
December 27, 2013, 01:57:19 AM
 #3881

I just received the following curious business proposition, and thought I ought to share it with you, just in case he completely annihilates my game/business and this holden egg dissapears as fast as it came:


Just-Dice                 ██             
          ██████████         
      ██████████████████     
  ██████████████████████████ 
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
    ██████████████████████   
        ██████████████       
            ██████           
   Play or Invest                 ██             
          ██████████         
      ██████████████████     
  ██████████████████████████ 
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████
    ██████████████████████   
        ██████████████       
            ██████           
   1% House Edge
SebastianJu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083


Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile


View Profile WWW
December 27, 2013, 02:16:27 AM
 #3882

*lol*

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
VTC
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84
Merit: 14



View Profile
December 27, 2013, 06:52:31 AM
 #3883

niktitan132
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000



View Profile
December 27, 2013, 06:56:59 AM
 #3884



Hahahahah  Grin
Timetwister
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047


View Profile
December 27, 2013, 11:02:02 AM
 #3885

I just received the following curious business proposition, and thought I ought to share it with you, just in case he completely annihilates my game/business and this holden egg dissapears as fast as it came:



Ha, ha, ha! I hope he tries that bot Cheesy
ondratra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
December 27, 2013, 01:59:50 PM
 #3886

I just received the following curious business proposition, and thought I ought to share it with you, just in case he completely annihilates my game/business and this holden egg dissapears as fast as it came:



Ha, ha, ha! I hope he tries that bot Cheesy

oh god Cheesy:D:D I hope he is not lying about him coding bot and sells his bot to as many people as possible as "sure win bot" before losing all his own coins == learning what probability, luck and especially "betting systems"(trololol) stands for Cheesy:D

looking forward Smiley
ondratra
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
December 27, 2013, 02:07:30 PM
 #3887

Btw: I don't say betting system doesn't work!!! Actually they all work!!!

Problem is that usuall noobs(I'm not saying I wasn't one too Smiley ) think that "working system" let them beat casino with much more coins than they have - but actually it just distributes probability of one roll among many rolls Smiley
theskillzdatklls
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1328
Merit: 563


MintDice.com | TG: t.me/MintDice


View Profile WWW
December 27, 2013, 02:43:54 PM
 #3888

That's amazing.




.




  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▄████████▀▀▀▀███▄
███████▀     ████
███████   ███████
█████        ████
███████   ███████
▀██████   ██████▀
  ▀▀▀▀▀   ▀▀▀▀▀

  ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▄██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██▄
██    ▄▄▄▄▄ ▀  ██
██   █▀   ▀█   ██
██   █▄   ▄█   ██
██    ▀▀▀▀▀    ██
▀██▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄██▀
  ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

            ▄▄▄
█▄▄      ████████▄
 █████▄▄████████▌
▀██████████████▌
  █████████████
  ▀██████████▀
   ▄▄██████▀
    ▀▀▀▀▀

    ██  ██
  ███████████▄
    ██      ▀█
    ██▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀
    ██▀▀▀▀▀▀█▄
    ██      ▄█
  ███████████▀
    ██  ██




               ▄
       ▄  ▄█▄ ▀█▀      ▄
      ▀█▀  ▀   ▄  ▄█▄ ▀█▀
███▄▄▄        ▀█▀  ▀     ▄▄▄███       ▐█▄    ▄█▌   ▐█▌   █▄    ▐█▌   ████████   █████▄     ██    ▄█████▄▄   ▐█████▌
████████▄▄           ▄▄████████       ▐███▄▄███▌   ▐█▌   ███▄  ▐█▌      ██      █▌  ▀██    ██   ▄██▀   ▀▀   ▐█
███████████▄       ▄███████████       ▐█▌▀██▀▐█▌   ▐█▌   ██▀██▄▐█▌      ██      █▌   ▐█▌   ██   ██          ▐█████▌
 ████████████     ████████████        ▐█▌    ▐█▌   ▐█▌   ██  ▀███▌      ██      █▌  ▄██    ██   ▀██▄   ▄▄   ▐█
  ████████████   ████████████         ▐█▌    ▐█▌   ▐█▌   ██    ▀█▌      ██      █████▀     ██    ▀█████▀▀   ▐█████▌
   ▀███████████ ███████████▀
     ▀███████████████████▀
        ▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀
FIND OUT MORE AT MINTDICE.COM
Timetwister
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047


View Profile
December 27, 2013, 02:46:58 PM
 #3889

Btw: I don't say betting system doesn't work!!! Actually they all work (for the casino)!!!

Problem is that usuall noobs(I'm not saying I wasn't one too Smiley ) think that "working system" let them beat casino with much more coins than they have - but actually it just distributes probability of one roll among many rolls Smiley

Fixed your post Cheesy
SebastianJu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083


Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile


View Profile WWW
December 27, 2013, 02:49:34 PM
 #3890

I guess he wants a couple of bitcoins because otherwise he is taking the 35000BTC from the house... isnt that nice?

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
nimda
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 1000


0xFB0D8D1534241423


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 04:06:10 AM
 #3891

"I trained software"

What does that even mean? He found a wild software in the jungles of the Amazon and tamed it? It takes artificial intelligence / machine learning to break HMAC-SHA512?
seuntjie
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1717
Merit: 1125



View Profile WWW
December 29, 2013, 12:12:32 PM
 #3892

"I trained software"

What does that even mean? He found a wild software in the jungles of the Amazon and tamed it? It takes artificial intelligence / machine learning to break HMAC-SHA512?

you have to train an AI, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_set


maqifrnswa
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 454
Merit: 252


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 03:36:53 PM
 #3893

I have read wikipedia about kelly criterion but i dont really get how much bigger the risk is when using kelly 2% instead 1%. I mean doesnt it mean for JD that at kelly 1% 1% of the house can be won. I see JD is only at 0.5% what is even below the optimum kelly describes. But even with 2%... its a percent value... the house cant really be beaten this way or am i wrong? It can go down very much but each new bet with max win of the house 2% means the house will be less than before... so the max win will be less then. If it would be a fixed value then of course... at 2% the house could be beaten in 50 wins. Which sounds like it will happen very rare. But its not even a fixed value. Its a percent value. That means you cant win back the losses as fast as you could with fixed values but the same goes with the losses. They will slow down. I dont see yet why 2% should be so much worse than 1%.

read:
http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/kelly-criterion/

(it's great site by the way, in general)

and:
http://compoundingmyinterests.com/compounding-the-blog/2012/10/12/how-did-ed-thorp-win-in-blackjack-and-the-stock-market.html

and
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/kelly/kellyfaq.htm
(see Q5)

If edge is 1%, and you wager 2% every time, the house bankroll won't grow. Wager >2%, and it will actually shrink over time.
Lohoris
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630
Merit: 500


Bitgoblin


View Profile
December 29, 2013, 06:00:59 PM
 #3894

"I trained software"

What does that even mean? He found a wild software in the jungles of the Amazon and tamed it? It takes artificial intelligence / machine learning to break HMAC-SHA512?
I guess he cought it in a Pokèball™...

1LohorisJie8bGGG7X4dCS9MAVsTEbzrhu
DefaultTrust is very BAD.
SebastianJu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083


Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile


View Profile WWW
December 29, 2013, 06:59:27 PM
 #3895

I have read wikipedia about kelly criterion but i dont really get how much bigger the risk is when using kelly 2% instead 1%. I mean doesnt it mean for JD that at kelly 1% 1% of the house can be won. I see JD is only at 0.5% what is even below the optimum kelly describes. But even with 2%... its a percent value... the house cant really be beaten this way or am i wrong? It can go down very much but each new bet with max win of the house 2% means the house will be less than before... so the max win will be less then. If it would be a fixed value then of course... at 2% the house could be beaten in 50 wins. Which sounds like it will happen very rare. But its not even a fixed value. Its a percent value. That means you cant win back the losses as fast as you could with fixed values but the same goes with the losses. They will slow down. I dont see yet why 2% should be so much worse than 1%.

read:
http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/kelly-criterion/

(it's great site by the way, in general)

and:
http://compoundingmyinterests.com/compounding-the-blog/2012/10/12/how-did-ed-thorp-win-in-blackjack-and-the-stock-market.html

and
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/kelly/kellyfaq.htm
(see Q5)

If edge is 1%, and you wager 2% every time, the house bankroll won't grow. Wager >2%, and it will actually shrink over time.


He claims that at 2% no growth will happen... really didnt thought that and its still hard to believe... maybe i should run some script to test this out. Anyway... this would only apply if someone plays really the max profit. If he plays half max profit then 2% kelly would be 1% kelly in reality...

I cant find out the formula values to get to 1% as ideal kelly value for just-dice. What are the values for the formula?

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
HurtK
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 31
Merit: 0



View Profile
December 29, 2013, 10:16:27 PM
 #3896

I have read wikipedia about kelly criterion but i dont really get how much bigger the risk is when using kelly 2% instead 1%. I mean doesnt it mean for JD that at kelly 1% 1% of the house can be won. I see JD is only at 0.5% what is even below the optimum kelly describes. But even with 2%... its a percent value... the house cant really be beaten this way or am i wrong? It can go down very much but each new bet with max win of the house 2% means the house will be less than before... so the max win will be less then. If it would be a fixed value then of course... at 2% the house could be beaten in 50 wins. Which sounds like it will happen very rare. But its not even a fixed value. Its a percent value. That means you cant win back the losses as fast as you could with fixed values but the same goes with the losses. They will slow down. I dont see yet why 2% should be so much worse than 1%.

read:
http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/kelly-criterion/

(it's great site by the way, in general)

and:
http://compoundingmyinterests.com/compounding-the-blog/2012/10/12/how-did-ed-thorp-win-in-blackjack-and-the-stock-market.html

and
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/kelly/kellyfaq.htm
(see Q5)

If edge is 1%, and you wager 2% every time, the house bankroll won't grow. Wager >2%, and it will actually shrink over time.



He claims that at 2% no growth will happen... really didnt thought that and its still hard to believe... maybe i should run some script to test this out. Anyway... this would only apply if someone plays really the max profit. If he plays half max profit then 2% kelly would be 1% kelly in reality...

I cant find out the formula values to get to 1% as ideal kelly value for just-dice. What are the values for the formula?

the formula is (house edge / bet variance)
house edge = 0,01
variance depends on bet type, with standard 2x (0,495 chance to win) bets you have variance = 1

so thats where the 1% as ideal number for max win comes from, now not all bets are made as standard 2x (the lowest variance bets) so depending on what percentage of bets are made with higher variance, the more we should lower the optimal max win number.

TLDR: optimal max win for just dice is not 1% but <1%
SebastianJu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083


Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile


View Profile WWW
December 30, 2013, 12:39:59 AM
 #3897

the formula is (house edge / bet variance)
house edge = 0,01
variance depends on bet type, with standard 2x (0,495 chance to win) bets you have variance = 1

so thats where the 1% as ideal number for max win comes from, now not all bets are made as standard 2x (the lowest variance bets) so depending on what percentage of bets are made with higher variance, the more we should lower the optimal max win number.

TLDR: optimal max win for just dice is not 1% but <1%

Wouldnt kelly be 0.010101 period then? I mean 0.01 / (2*0.495) = 0.010101010...

Youre right... but this max win on changed chance has to be changed automatically to still meet kelly. Thats something hopefully will be set up for obvious reasons.

But what i mean is... lets assume all bets are 50%. Kelly 1% would only be the optimum for an investor when a player plays to full max profit. But most of the bids are way way lower than the amount needed for max profit. So the risks that 1% involves are never met for the single investor. He could easily use 10x kelly and still remain way under the 1% of his personal investment used in each bet since only a small portion of the house is used in each bet. The individual investor would have to set a way higher kelly to rally maximize his profits. Though of course he has to hope that its not often happening that someone really plays 1% max profit of the house since then 10% of his investment would be involved. Which is a high risk. I mean there should be a sweat spot for the real kelly value for an individual investor. And thats not 1% kelly. Its higher. I guess im not smart enough for calculating...

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
maqifrnswa
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 454
Merit: 252


View Profile
December 30, 2013, 03:38:31 PM
 #3898


Wouldnt kelly be 0.010101 period then? I mean 0.01 / (2*0.495) = 0.010101010...

Youre right... but this max win on changed chance has to be changed automatically to still meet kelly. Thats something hopefully will be set up for obvious reasons.

But what i mean is... lets assume all bets are 50%. Kelly 1% would only be the optimum for an investor when a player plays to full max profit. But most of the bids are way way lower than the amount needed for max profit. So the risks that 1% involves are never met for the single investor. He could easily use 10x kelly and still remain way under the 1% of his personal investment used in each bet since only a small portion of the house is used in each bet. The individual investor would have to set a way higher kelly to rally maximize his profits. Though of course he has to hope that its not often happening that someone really plays 1% max profit of the house since then 10% of his investment would be involved. Which is a high risk. I mean there should be a sweat spot for the real kelly value for an individual investor. And thats not 1% kelly. Its higher. I guess im not smart enough for calculating...


We can't make investors go up to 10x kelly on small bets because we we can't force users (players) to increase their bets if they bet small. A small bet is a small bet: every investor takes a share of the gains proportional to their investment; no bets are allowed which will exceed the 1% maximum optimum bet since any bets that exceed it will reduce long term gain.

No need to simulate, the math isn't that bad:
when you win, you win:
(1+f*b)*current_bankroll
where f is your kelly percentage, b is how much you win when you win (minus original bet, e.g., "1" for a 50:50 roll)
when you lose, you lose:
(1-f*a)*current_bankroll
where a is your wager.
is if you win p*N times, and lose q*N times (where p is the probability you win, q is the probability you lose, and N is the total number of games played), your ending money is:

endbankroll=(1+f*b)^(p*N) * (1-f*a)^(q*N) * starting bankroll
your percentage profit is then:
C=(1+f*b)^(p*N) * (1-f*a)^(q*N)

you can plug in any numbers you want for any type of roll, house edge, or kelly fraction and you will see what you get

the optimum f to maximize C is simply the derivative of C (or log of C since log is a monotonic function) respect to f set to 0.
optimum f = p/a-q/b

C is negative (that is, a losing strategy when)
p*log(1+f*b)+q*log(1-f*a) is negative, even if you have a positive house edge.
SebastianJu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2674
Merit: 1083


Legendary Escrow Service - Tip Jar in Profile


View Profile WWW
December 30, 2013, 09:55:55 PM
 #3899

Thanks for the calculations. But i meant it more from the view from a individual investor.

For example. If the house is 10k and 1% kelly then max profit is 100. If each bet is targetting max profit then the optimum really would be 1% kelly. But thats not the reality since most bets are way way smaller than that.

That wouldnt change anything for the whole house but if an individual investor could set his kelly value then he could take advantage from that. For example raising the kelly value to 2% for this single investor would probably be a more profitable investment strategy since the invested money can take part with the double amount with each bet. So this single investor would prozentually grow faster in profit than the other investors with 1% kelly. At least as long as no max profit bets happen. Because max profit bets would have a higher risk then. But the max risk at 2% would be to not make a profit at all. No negative profit. So all bets lower than max profit will yield a higher return for that individual investor.
Of course that wouldnt work anymore when all investors set it to 2%. But i doubt that since it seems that many like half kelly in exchange for one quarter of the profits that users with 1% kelly would get.

I only mean the 1% kelly is only correct if all bets are for max profit. Though its not the only param that makes it wrong.

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
TheNuts23
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 45
Merit: 0


View Profile
January 08, 2014, 07:40:55 PM
 #3900

^This! Custom investor risk adjustment please Smiley
Pages: « 1 ... 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 [195] 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 ... 252 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!