Assault weapon bans

[EscrowBTC]

Assault weapons and other weapons must remain locked in military bases.

Why soldiers need to risk their lives for a few extra dollars?

There must be peace everywhere, we don't need to use weapons!

[FirstAscent]

You also gloss over the fact that you can't get rid of guns completely.  When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.  And governments.  (Sorry for the redundancy.)

Quoting memes again, are you? Actually, in reality, it works like this:

When the NRA gets everyone clammering for guns, then lots of guns get manufactured, sold, and transferred into the hands of outlaws. When guns are not outlawed, lots of people without morals have guns.

When guns are really outlawed, (that is, effective laws enforced effectively), the outlaws do not have guns. Japan would be an example.

[Rassah]

Hey, can someone dump some statistics comparing crimes in Japan to crimes in Switzerland into this thread?

[Rampion]

Hey, can someone dump some statistics comparing crimes in Japan to crimes in Switzerland into this thread?

Switzerland:

Government statistics for the year 2010 records 40 homicides involving firearms, out of the 53 cases of homicide in 2010.

The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population was 0.70.

Japan:

In 1989 Japan experienced 1.3 robberies per 100,000 population, compared with 48.6 for West Germany, 65.8 for United Kingdom, and 233.0 for the United States; and it experienced 1.1 murder per 100,000 population, compared with 3.9 for West Germany, 1.03 for England and Wales, and 8.7 for the United States that same year.[4] Japanese authorities also solve a high percentage of robbery cases (75.9%, compared with 43.8% for West Germany, 26.5% for Britain, and 26.0% for the United States) and homicide cases (95.9% , compared with 94.4% for Germany, 78.0% for U.K., and 68.3% for the United States). In 2010 annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population was 0.40.

[FirstAscent]

Some statistics for Japan:

Homicides (any method)
2008: 582
2007: 553
2006: 621
2005: 637
2004: 703
2003: 759
2002: 784
2001: 776
2000: 818
1999: 834
1998: 851
1997: 755
1996: 719
1995: 759

Rate of Homicide per 100,000 People (any method)
2008: 0.5
2007: 0.4
2006: 0.5
2005: 0.5
2004: 0.6
2003: 0.6
2002: 0.6
2001: 0.6
2000: 0.7
1999: 0.7
1998: 0.7
1997: 0.6
1996: 0.6
1995: 0.6
1994: 0.6

Gun Homicides
2008: 11
2002: 47
2001: 56
1997: 34
1996: 36
1995: 42

Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
2008: 0.09
2002: 0.04
2001: 0.04
1997: 0.03
1996: 0.03
1995: 0.03
1994: 0.02

[bernard75]

Dude, there is no West Germany...hmmm...lemee think since 20+ years.
Doesnt make the stats irreverent though.

[FirstAscent]

For the United States:

Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
2011: 3.6
2010: 3.5
2009: 3.7
2008: 4.0
2007: 4.1
2006: 4.2
2005: 4.1
2004: 3.9
2003: 4.1
2002: 4.1
2001: 3.9
2000: 3.8
1999: 3.8
1998: 3.3
1993: 7.0

[Rampion]

Dude, there is no West Germany...hmmm...lemee think since 20+ years.
Doesnt make the stats irreverent though.

In 1989 there was west Germany. I took those from Wikipedia because it is a succinct comparative between crime stats of different countries, and I completed it with 2010 homicide rate.

Best thing I could quickly find from my phone.

[bernard75]

It seems you have educated people afterall. rofl

[FirstAscent]

Japan/United States comparison (for years where there is data for both):

Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
2008: 0.09 / 4.0
2002: 0.04 / 4.1
2001: 0.04 / 3.9

In summary, Japan has about 50 to 100 times less gun homicides per capita.

[Rampion]

Japan/United States comparison (for years where there is data for both):

Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
2008: 0.09 / 4.0
2002: 0.04 / 4.1
2001: 0.04 / 3.9

In summary, Japan has about 50 to 100 times less gun homicides per capita.

No. It has between 50 and 100 times less gun homicides per capita, and 10 times less homicides by any means per capita. The interesting thing is that while 10% of swiss households have guns (18% in the US), their homicide rate is lower than some countries were guns are banned.

It should be remarked that in Switzerland there is no "gun loving culture" at all, guns cannot be carried in public unless a reservist is en route to his unit for training or you have a special permit (for example because you do a security job, no other exceptions).

Anyhow, IMO this just points out again than education is more effective than banning. In any case, you can bet that if there were no guns in Switzerland the homicide rate would be even lower.

[FirstAscent]

Japan/United States comparison (for years where there is data for both):

Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
2008: 0.09 / 4.0
2002: 0.04 / 4.1
2001: 0.04 / 3.9

In summary, Japan has about 50 to 100 times less gun homicides per capita.

That's so obvious it shouldn't even be noted, the interesting thing is that while 10% of swiss households have guns (18% in the US), their homicide rate is lower than some countries were guns are banned.

It should be remarked that in Switzerland there is no "gun loving culture" at all, guns cannot be carried in public unless a reservist is en route to his unit for training or you have a special permit (for example because you do a security job, no other exceptions).

Anyhow, IMO this just points out again than education is more effective than banning. In any case, you can bet that if there were no guns in Switzerland the homicide rate would be even lower.

That's what the gun lovers here don't get: Switzerland tightly regulates firearms.

Anyway, for Rassah, I'm working up some crime statistics of Japan vs. Switzerland.

[Rampion]

Japan/United States comparison (for years where there is data for both):

Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
2008: 0.09 / 4.0
2002: 0.04 / 4.1
2001: 0.04 / 3.9

In summary, Japan has about 50 to 100 times less gun homicides per capita.

That's so obvious it shouldn't even be noted, the interesting thing is that while 10% of swiss households have guns (18% in the US), their homicide rate is lower than some countries were guns are banned.

It should be remarked that in Switzerland there is no "gun loving culture" at all, guns cannot be carried in public unless a reservist is en route to his unit for training or you have a special permit (for example because you do a security job, no other exceptions).

Anyhow, IMO this just points out again than education is more effective than banning. In any case, you can bet that if there were no guns in Switzerland the homicide rate would be even lower.

That's what the gun lovers here don't get: Switzerland tightly regulates firearms.

Anyway, for Rassah, I'm working up some crime statistics of Japan vs. Switzerland.

Edited my previous post to correct one of your statistics.

[FirstAscent]

Crime in Japan vs. Switzerland:

Bear in mind that many of the statistics are reported in absolute numbers, not per capita, so you must factor in the population difference.

Japan's population: 127.8 million
Switzerland's population: 7.9 million

Japan has 16 times the population, so do the relevant math where necessary.

Here are some statistics for you: http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Japan/Switzerland/Crime

[FirstAscent]

And so it would appear that:

Switzerland has more rapes per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more assaults per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more car thefts per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more drug offenses per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more murders committed by youths per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more murders committed with firearms per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more prisoners per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more suicides per capita than Japan.
Switzerland has more total crimes per capita than Japan.

[NewLiberty]

I was hinting at the Patriots Act, Protect America Act and what have you not by now, stripping the American populace of basic rights.
But Kluge raises an important point, where were the protests when all that shit went down?

Where?  All over.
There was a very vocal minority of protests.
https://www.google.com/search?q=protest+patriot+act&tbm=isch
The Vietnam war protests were also a vocal minority.
Post Snowden? who knows...

[Rassah]

Thanks for the info. All that tells me, though, is that things are much more complicated.
I wish there was some comparable set of data/countries/regions where cultures were the same, and guns were the only difference. I thought maybe Canada and US (both have similar gun restrictions, but vastly different crime rates), but even that isn't very adequate.

[FirstAscent]

Thanks for the info. All that tells me, though, is that things are much more complicated.
I wish there was some comparable set of data/countries/regions where cultures were the same, and guns were the only difference. I thought maybe Canada and US (both have similar gun restrictions, but vastly different crime rates), but even that isn't very adequate.

Things are complicated. But maybe, just maybe, you could let go of your insistence that guns are great for a moment, and realize that maybe the numbers are telling you something.

[Rassah]

Thanks for the info. All that tells me, though, is that things are much more complicated.
I wish there was some comparable set of data/countries/regions where cultures were the same, and guns were the only difference. I thought maybe Canada and US (both have similar gun restrictions, but vastly different crime rates), but even that isn't very adequate.

Things are complicated. But maybe, just maybe, you could let go of your insistence that guns are great for a moment, and realize that maybe the numbers are telling you something.

If I put a gun in one room, and no guns in the other, step out, and close the door, the number of crimes in that room will be the same: 0. I didn't know that Switzerland had strict gun regulations for instance, and always believed that Switzerland has few, even requiring almost everyone to have a gun. The main variable, though, is people, and whatever that involves. Sure, guns make it easier to kill from a distance, but they also make it easier to stop others from killing. And that's why I was hoping that there was some set of data to compare things to, where the culture isn't much of a variable. Obviously the culture in USA is total shit in some places, especially compared to Europe, and in Japan it's even more respectful of others than in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised that, if we were to give a gun to every single person in Japan, their murder and crime rate would still be lower than in places in US where guns are totally banned. Likewise, how can you tell is banning guns is due to cultural reaction to mitigate violence, or if it's cultural agreement that is simply an extension of an already non-violent culture?

[NewLiberty]

Thanks for the info. All that tells me, though, is that things are much more complicated.
I wish there was some comparable set of data/countries/regions where cultures were the same, and guns were the only difference. I thought maybe Canada and US (both have similar gun restrictions, but vastly different crime rates), but even that isn't very adequate.

Things are complicated. But maybe, just maybe, you could let go of your insistence that guns are great for a moment, and realize that maybe the numbers are telling you something.

If I put a gun in one room, and no guns in the other, step out, and close the door, the number of crimes in that room will be the same: 0. I didn't know that Switzerland had strict gun regulations for instance, and always believed that Switzerland has few, even requiring almost everyone to have a gun. The main variable, though, is people, and whatever that involves. Sure, guns make it easier to kill from a distance, but they also make it easier to stop others from killing. And that's why I was hoping that there was some set of data to compare things to, where the culture isn't much of a variable. Obviously the culture in USA is total shit in some places, especially compared to Europe, and in Japan it's even more respectful of others than in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised that, if we were to give a gun to every single person in Japan, their murder and crime rate would still be lower than in places in US where guns are totally banned. Likewise, how can you tell is banning guns is due to cultural reaction to mitigate violence, or if it's cultural agreement that is simply an extension of an already non-violent culture?

The Australia experiment might show something as it controls for "people and culture", over the last 15 years.

Australia passed the National Firearms Agreement, banning all semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic and pump-action shotguns and imposing a more restrictive licensing system on other firearms. The government also launched a forced buyback scheme to remove thousands of firearms from private hands. Between Oct. 1, 1996, and Sept. 30, 1997, the government purchased and destroyed more than 631,000 of the banned guns at a cost of $500 million.

the Brookings Institution, found homicides "continued a modest decline" since 1997. They concluded that the impact of the National Firearms Agreement was "relatively small," with the daily rate of firearms homicides declining 3.2%.

According to their study, the use of handguns rather than long guns (rifles and shotguns) went up sharply, but only one out of 117 gun homicides in the two years following the 1996 National Firearms Agreement used a registered gun. Suicides with firearms went down but suicides by other means went up. They reported "a modest reduction in the severity" of massacres (four or more indiscriminate homicides) in the five years since the government weapons buyback. These involved knives, gas and arson rather than firearms.

In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over 40% in assaults and 20% in sexual assaults.
...
"Gun violence" went down, but "violent crime" went up more.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323777204578195470446855466.html