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Lab_Rat
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July 19, 2013, 12:23:03 AM
 #141

I know MrTeal quite well and like his project. The only thing that separates him from BitFury is that BitFury's chips are more power efficient. If he gets his chips in and gear assembled before BitFury starts delivering it may be worth it though.

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maqifrnswa
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July 19, 2013, 01:38:47 AM
 #142

I've been exchanging some email with Lab_Rat...

He indicates that of the current capital from bond sales, around 80% will go into hardware purchases.  The rest for overhead and expenses.  (Secure data centre, lawyers, etc)

Of the hardware bought, 25% will be for the company, and mine for expenses and new hardware acquisitions.  The remaining 75% will pay customer dividends.

The 100MH/s hash rate posted was intended to be seen as a minimum.  The actual hash rate associated with a bond may in fact end up considerably higher, depending on what deals can be made.  The initial numbers were based on a conservative estimate, and BFL gear.  Given that BitFury is in the picture, it is possible that that this number may be much higher, depending on what that 80% of bond sales will buy.

Lab_Rat is meeting with (I think) the BitFury rep right now.  He will be back later to confirm the above.



grnbrg.

I wish this was in the contract, hard numbers helps price securities.

OgNasty does something similar to what labrat is proposing, but is nearly 100% transparent and is currently yielding dividends. That model is working, the key is transparency towards hardware reinvestment rates and purchasing.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86854.0
Lab_Rat
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July 19, 2013, 03:14:49 AM
Last edit: July 19, 2013, 03:34:57 AM by Lab_Rat
 #143

I've been exchanging some email with Lab_Rat...

He indicates that of the current capital from bond sales, around 80% will go into hardware purchases.  The rest for overhead and expenses.  (Secure data centre, lawyers, etc)

Of the hardware bought, 25% will be for the company, and mine for expenses and new hardware acquisitions.  The remaining 75% will pay customer dividends.

The 100MH/s hash rate posted was intended to be seen as a minimum.  The actual hash rate associated with a bond may in fact end up considerably higher, depending on what deals can be made.  The initial numbers were based on a conservative estimate, and BFL gear.  Given that BitFury is in the picture, it is possible that that this number may be much higher, depending on what that 80% of bond sales will buy.

Lab_Rat is meeting with (I think) the BitFury rep right now.  He will be back later to confirm the above.



grnbrg.

I wish this was in the contract, hard numbers helps price securities.

OgNasty does something similar to what labrat is proposing, but is nearly 100% transparent and is currently yielding dividends. That model is working, the key is transparency towards hardware reinvestment rates and purchasing.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86854.0


This was in my business plan, but I did not make it public.  I am working on some documents and spreadsheets, as suggested, that I will be publishing.  I have no problem including these in the contract as they are/were my plans from the beginning.  I wanted to promise a minimum and shoot for higher.

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July 19, 2013, 04:24:56 AM
 #144

@grnbrg, no offense, but we do need to hear these responses directly from Lab_Rat; seeing how he responds, how often he responds, his tone, his transparency, attention to detail, whether he tends to change his mind over time, whether he addresses all concerns in a timely manner or if he sidesteps ones he doesn't want to deal with ... these all help paint a picture of who he is, what kind of company this will likely be, and the sort of service investors can expect in future dealings with him.

Until he provides some tangible information about himself, these indirect 'tells' are really all we have to go on to build some sense of "trust". He really needs to deal with this directly and personally; it is just part of trying to advertise one's business to potential investors. Nothing more than common sense and business etiquette, really.

Asking someone else to be a mouthpiece because he doesn't want to take the time to do it himself does not make a particularly good impression.

I'm actually happy to see this arrangement. grnbrg has provided very good answers in a professional format. Obviously it is labrat's responsibility to correct his agent or release more important information such as financial updates and large hardware purchases. However, I would like to see this across the board on all listed assets. Often these managers are so stressed and don't want to field so many questions or criticism. So why not find an agent to pay them a small amount of revenue who isn't stressed out running a business to take these investor relations tasks off the manager.
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July 19, 2013, 05:21:34 AM
 #145

20k sold 110MH/s
40k sold 120MH/s
60k sold 130MH/s
80k sold 140MH/s
100k sold 150MH/s

I read this post and honest to god thought it was one of those smartass parody/troll posts people make until I saw the username.
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July 19, 2013, 12:39:54 PM
 #146

20k sold 110MH/s
40k sold 120MH/s
60k sold 130MH/s
80k sold 140MH/s
100k sold 150MH/s

I read this post and honest to god thought it was one of those smartass parody/troll posts people make until I saw the username.

It's funny, you're basically trolling him for being conservative initially... bad Lab_Rat! You must make massive proclamations of unachievable success!

Frankly with Lab_Rat's connections and respect in the community I'm pretty bloody confident he can get hash rate on the ground before the rest of us... like his relationship with BFL - anyone thought that one through? oh yeah, 15641 shares worth of people may have thought that one through.

+1 vote of confidence for labrat. I've said elsewhere, I sold my pre-orders to buy shares instead (I can't afford the heat and leccy of these BFL units which aren't hitting initial spec)

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July 19, 2013, 12:50:45 PM
Last edit: July 19, 2013, 02:15:18 PM by maqifrnswa
 #147

I've been exchanging some email with Lab_Rat...

He indicates that of the current capital from bond sales, around 80% will go into hardware purchases.  The rest for overhead and expenses.  (Secure data centre, lawyers, etc)

Of the hardware bought, 25% will be for the company, and mine for expenses and new hardware acquisitions.  The remaining 75% will pay customer dividends.

The 100MH/s hash rate posted was intended to be seen as a minimum.  The actual hash rate associated with a bond may in fact end up considerably higher, depending on what deals can be made.  The initial numbers were based on a conservative estimate, and BFL gear.  Given that BitFury is in the picture, it is possible that that this number may be much higher, depending on what that 80% of bond sales will buy.

Lab_Rat is meeting with (I think) the BitFury rep right now.  He will be back later to confirm the above.



grnbrg.

I wish this was in the contract, hard numbers helps price securities.

OgNasty does something similar to what labrat is proposing, but is nearly 100% transparent and is currently yielding dividends. That model is working, the key is transparency towards hardware reinvestment rates and purchasing.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86854.0


This was in my business plan, but I did not make it public.  I am working on some documents and spreadsheets, as suggested, that I will be publishing.  I have no problem including these in the contract as they are/were my plans from the beginning.  I wanted to promise a minimum and shoot for higher.

I think that will help a lot. Many people's objections are to the vague definition of what a share is and where it will go in the future. I understand many people prefer to see simply "100 MH/s", but I think the more sophisticated investors would have preferred:

"One share guarantees you the payout of (1/number_of_shares sold)*75 percent of the payout of the total of LabRatMining's operation. The remaining 25% is spent on expenses and hardware. We will post monthly statements on the expenses and balance available for hardware purchases. Hardware purchases will be made at the discretion of the company. The company will take XX% of the 25% each month as a management fee.

The total LRM hashrate will be determined by the amount of funds raised in this bond sale, with 80% of the funds going to hardware purchasing and 20% of the funds towards startup legal and datacenter expenses.

For example (and only as an example), at the current exchange rate of ~90 USD/BTC, and the current rate of 500 GH/s for $22,484.00-25% discount ($16863), and share rate of BTC15*0.8, we expect to purchase 320 MH/s/share. Of that 320 MH/s/share, 25% (80 MH/s) will go towards mining expenses and expanded hardware per above, and 240MH/s will be returned as dividends."


While a clean clear share definition (ASICMINER) is simpler, this model can work if there is enough transparency.  However, as as a defined security, lots of information is missing that serious investors need. As you can see, amongst the missing information is management fee is and if you havereasonable recurring expenses.

I'm just trying to help point out how this can be improved, and hopefully become a successful BTC venture.

EDIT: 20% for start up expenses? 20,000 shares sold is $270,000. 20% is $54,000 - that seems quite high for one month work of work (even for a lawyer), especially since the company owns the hardware assets. Unless some management fee is included in that, but you haven't shown what you get out of it yet - which is important for you to be sustainable.
grnbrg
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July 19, 2013, 02:26:33 PM
 #148

EDIT: 20% for start up expenses? 20,000 shares sold is $270,000. 20% is $54,000 - that seems quite high for one month work of work (even for a lawyer), especially since the company owns the hardware assets. Unless some management fee is included in that, but you haven't shown what you get out of it yet - which is important for you to be sustainable.
Good question.  I just got a note from Lab_Rat that he's working on a statement on this.  It should be posted later today.



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Lab_Rat
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July 19, 2013, 04:23:41 PM
 #149

The 20% in start-up expenses include but are not limited to, warehouse rent and renovation (I've begun this already with my own personal funds), lawyer and accounting fees, management fees, and leaving a minimum surplus for unknown or unrecognized expenses as the company moves along.

Pertaining to your questions regarding management fees, I have put between 250 and 300 hours into this company over the last couple weeks, as well as many hours before that.  I will of course be compensating myself for those hours spent.

I would like to share initial estimations of the allocation of funds.  I will be updating the website in the next 24 to 48 hours with this information so that all potential or current investors may analyze the data.

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July 19, 2013, 04:49:57 PM
 #150

Lab Rat, I'm a little confused.

If I buy one of the 100,000 bonds, that will grant me 100Mh/s. If only 20,000 bonds are sold before the first pay period, would I get 500mh/s worth of pay since the 80,000 wasn't sold?

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maqifrnswa
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July 19, 2013, 05:35:38 PM
 #151

The 20% in start-up expenses include but are not limited to, warehouse rent and renovation (I've begun this already with my own personal funds), lawyer and accounting fees, management fees, and leaving a minimum surplus for unknown or unrecognized expenses as the company moves along.

Pertaining to your questions regarding management fees, I have put between 250 and 300 hours into this company over the last couple weeks, as well as many hours before that.  I will of course be compensating myself for those hours spent.

I would like to share initial estimations of the allocation of funds.  I will be updating the website in the next 24 to 48 hours with this information so that all potential or current investors may analyze the data.

thank you for the info - of course you should be compensated, the question is when and where does your compensation (and company profit) come from. Right now a large percentage of bond premium is unaccounted for and can either end up as new hardware (investor upside), bills, or your pocket. All three are acceptable, what matters is the distribution amongst those three, and where do future distribution go amongst those three. You're going to get close to a quarter of a million dollars in less than a week, that's as good as angel round investing - so I'm just asking questions an angel would.
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July 19, 2013, 06:18:48 PM
 #152

I apologize. I thought I answered your question clear enough. I will be making a statement within 24-48 hours that will without a doubt clear it up completely. I will likely compensate myself very little at the beginning as to allow for further expansion and the fact that I can live without it. I would like to have $20,000 set aside at all times (possibly more as the company expands) in case of an emergency. I will give full disclosure on the allocation of funds as discussed. I'm taking far less than the 20% discussed initially to provide earlier orders, but a maximum of 20% should be allowed for expansion in terms of racks and hosting.

Edit:  I have numbers drafted, I'm just making them presentable.

grnbrg
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July 19, 2013, 08:01:05 PM
 #153

Lab Rat, I'm a little confused.

If I buy one of the 100,000 bonds, that will grant me 100Mh/s. If only 20,000 bonds are sold before the first pay period, would I get 500mh/s worth of pay since the 80,000 wasn't sold?

Aside from the fact that 100 Mh/s is a conservative estimate....

Each bond is rated at 100 Mh/s.  If the full 100k bonds are sold, then there is money to buy ~10 Th/s of gear.  If onky 20k bonds are sold, then there is only money to buy 2Th/s, but also fewer bonds to distribute dividends to, so you'll still see 100 Mh/s per bond.

Again, 100Mh/s appears to be a conservative guess.  Once negotiations with BitFury are done, firmer and higher numbers are likely.




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July 19, 2013, 10:38:19 PM
 #154

Lab Rat, I'm a little confused.

If I buy one of the 100,000 bonds, that will grant me 100Mh/s. If only 20,000 bonds are sold before the first pay period, would I get 500mh/s worth of pay since the 80,000 wasn't sold?

Aside from the fact that 100 Mh/s is a conservative estimate....

Each bond is rated at 100 Mh/s.  If the full 100k bonds are sold, then there is money to buy ~10 Th/s of gear.  If onky 20k bonds are sold, then there is only money to buy 2Th/s, but also fewer bonds to distribute dividends to, so you'll still see 100 Mh/s per bond.

Again, 100Mh/s appears to be a conservative guess.  Once negotiations with BitFury are done, firmer and higher numbers are likely.




grnbrg.
Oh, so he doesn't even have the equipment mining right now? If I bought a bond right now, would I even be paid in the next week or so?

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July 19, 2013, 10:59:25 PM
 #155

Oh, so he doesn't even have the equipment mining right now? If I bought a bond right now, would I even be paid in the next week or so?

Not as yet, nor has that fact been hidden.  Lab_Rat has some early BFL orders that will be used, some users have offered early orders in exchange for bonds, and orders will be placed with multiple ASIC vendors.  Mining is expected to start within 3-6 weeks.



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July 19, 2013, 11:12:18 PM
 #156

6 weeks later, you can possibly get TAT.VM and DMS.MINING for that price .... no reason to risk yourself with PRE-orders from those unreliable companies.( BFL and Bitfury).
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July 19, 2013, 11:50:22 PM
 #157

I think my point is

You're not old enough to have a point.

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grnbrg
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July 20, 2013, 12:48:40 AM
 #158

Stay tuned...  @Lab_Rat just got off the phone with Dave from BitFury.  Both will be posting announcements tonight.


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SOSLOVE868
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July 20, 2013, 12:49:42 AM
 #159

Stay tuned...  @Lab_Rat just got off the phone with Dave from BitFury.  Both will be posting announcements tonight.


grnbrg.

Both isn't reliable at all.....be lucky, folks....
grnbrg
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July 20, 2013, 01:02:13 AM
 #160

Both isn't reliable at all.....be lucky, folks....

Tongue


grnbrg.
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