-

[Vbs]

Did you miss that my whole argument is that 0.15 per 100MH/s when network 1500TH/s is still a good price (~58% annual return)? Totally competitive with anyone in the market (by orders of magnitude). If you did the math assuming ~250TH/s network (poor decision IMO), then the estimated rate of return is like 350% (meaning you earn 3.5BTC per 1 BTC invested). So yes an 83% 'devaluation' from ridiculous to pretty-good-and-totally-competitive.

It's not an annual return when the share value is going down faster than what you receive in dividends during that time-frame. Annual return supposes you can (1) sell it at the same price as you bought it one year later, while (2) earning dividends during a year. Unfortunately, condition #1 doesn't hold.

4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

Wrong!

[1714079810]

1714079810

[1714079810]

1714079810

[Plazma]

I will be surprised if even the first 20k are sold, ( the ones already sold are sold "privetly" )

[a2offrb]

Did you miss that my whole argument is that 0.15 per 100MH/s when network 1500TH/s is still a good price (~58% annual return)? Totally competitive with anyone in the market (by orders of magnitude). If you did the math assuming ~250TH/s network (poor decision IMO), then the estimated rate of return is like 350% (meaning you earn 3.5BTC per 1 BTC invested). So yes an 83% 'devaluation' from ridiculous to pretty-good-and-totally-competitive.

It's not an annual return when the share value is going down faster than what you receive in dividends during that time-frame. Annual return supposes you can (1) sell it at the same price as you bought it one year later, while (2) earning dividends during a year. Unfortunately, condition #1 doesn't hold.

In Finland we have about 5.5 million people.

For Finland 0.5% pa for normal bank account is normal.

We pay for credit in bank about 3.5%-> any way to put money to earn money more than 3.5% is profit EVEN if you take credit from bank.

AND YOU ARE TELLING THAT PRICE FOR SHARE WILL GO DOWN?
If share will pay dividends less than 10% pa, then it price will go down....

If it will - seller side is a idiot.

(imho)

The only thing that you must to believe that bitcoin will not drop less that 99$/btc

[SOSLOVE868]

2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

The problem is right here. You can say that BTC0.15 per 100MH/s is a great price right now (network at ~250TH/s), but when the network reaches 1500TH/s, 100MH/s is worth then 0.15*250/1500 = BTC0.025, an 83% devaluation.

Did you miss that my whole argument is that 0.15 per 100MH/s when network 1500TH/s is still a good price (~58% annual return)? Totally competitive with anyone in the market (by orders of magnitude). If you did the math assuming ~250TH/s network (poor decision IMO), then the estimated rate of return is like 350% (meaning you earn 3.5BTC per 1 BTC invested). So yes an 83% 'devaluation' from ridiculous to pretty-good-and-totally-competitive.

The question isn't really concern with any math calculation ,is just mean you get good return if bitfurry made its promised, or you get nothing...
This is a gamble on pre-order , If I willing to take the risk I will rather go for pre-order by myself ,since more hashrate efficiency than buying this mining contract.

I'm 100% positive that someone spending $100,000-$200,000 on mining equipment vs you spending maybe $5,000 on the same equipment, the person spending that large sum of money will get more.

How does this work you ask?

If you spend more money, you get bigger discounts/freebies.

You can negotiate prices etc...

With this bond you also don't have to pay any hosting/electricity costs, maintenance on the machine, and it is a worry-free 100MH (probably double or triple this in the near future at the rate the bonds are selling).

Sometimes people just make up their minds about these things without logic involved and just assume that the people that purchased these shares (10,928 Shares (฿1648.14096260)) are all wrong and this is a terrible terrible idea.

OR your thinking is wrong.

One of these is going to be right.

two months before ,some one paid 50KUSD for a Avalon over e-bay , for 200K isn't a large amount whatever you look at it...

About the selling ,I observed  yesterday's bid wall ,there are only bid up for few hundreds of the contracts.
 I have no clue why it become that much today , However, I know that you are attracted by this plan , I just wish you do not get ripped by this and get nicely return on it .
As long as I am prudent investor , I will never put my money into these pre-orders...

[Vbs]

In Finland we have about 5.5 million people.

For Finland 0.5% pa for normal bank account is normal.

We pay for credit in bank about 3.5%-> any way to put money to earn money more than 3.5% is profit EVEN if you take credit from bank.

AND YOU ARE TELLING THAT PRICE FOR SHARE WILL GO DOWN?
If share will pay dividends less than 10% pa, then it price will go down....

If it will - seller side is a idiot.

(imho)

The only thing that you must to believe that bitcoin will not drop less that 99$/btc

The most important thing to know is that network difficulty adapts so that the number of blocks mined is always as close as possible to 6 blocks every hour. This means that around BTC3600 are mined per day (25*6*24).

The current network hashrate is ~250TH/s, so 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/250000 = BTC0.00144 per day. 100MH/s represents 0.00004% of the network.

When the network hashrate is ~1500TH/s, 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/1500000 = BTC0.00024 per day. 100MH/s then represents 0.00000667% of the network, which is 6x less, this is why the share value goes down.

Paying BTC0.15 for something that represents BTC0.00144 per day might be good now, but not later.

[SOSLOVE868]

In Finland we have about 5.5 million people.

For Finland 0.5% pa for normal bank account is normal.

We pay for credit in bank about 3.5%-> any way to put money to earn money more than 3.5% is profit EVEN if you take credit from bank.

AND YOU ARE TELLING THAT PRICE FOR SHARE WILL GO DOWN?
If share will pay dividends less than 10% pa, then it price will go down....

If it will - seller side is a idiot.

(imho)

The only thing that you must to believe that bitcoin will not drop less that 99$/btc

The most important thing to know is that network difficulty adapts so that the number of blocks mined is always as close as possible to 6 blocks every hour. This means that around BTC3600 are mined per day (25*6*24).

The current network hashrate is ~250TH/s, so 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/250000 = BTC0.00144 per day. 100MH/s represents 0.00004% of the network.

When the network hashrate is ~1500TH/s, 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/1500000 = BTC0.00024 per day. 100MH/s then represents 0.00000667% of the network, which is 6x less, this is why the share value goes down.

Paying BTC0.15 for something that represents BTC0.00144 per day might be good now, but not later.

Stop those meaningless calculation please........ the question is simple get nothing or get rich.....

[Bargraphics]

In Finland we have about 5.5 million people.

For Finland 0.5% pa for normal bank account is normal.

We pay for credit in bank about 3.5%-> any way to put money to earn money more than 3.5% is profit EVEN if you take credit from bank.

AND YOU ARE TELLING THAT PRICE FOR SHARE WILL GO DOWN?
If share will pay dividends less than 10% pa, then it price will go down....

If it will - seller side is a idiot.

(imho)

The only thing that you must to believe that bitcoin will not drop less that 99$/btc

The most important thing to know is that network difficulty adapts so that the number of blocks mined is always as close as possible to 6 blocks every hour. This means that around BTC3600 are mined per day (25*6*24).

The current network hashrate is ~250TH/s, so 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/250000 = BTC0.00144 per day. 100MH/s represents 0.00004% of the network.

When the network hashrate is ~1500TH/s, 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/1500000 = BTC0.00024 per day. 100MH/s then represents 0.00000667% of the network, which is 6x less, this is why the share value goes down.

Paying BTC0.15 for something that represents BTC0.00144 per day might be good now, but not later.

This installment will add at least 15TH/s to the companies mining operation, and with it will follow an increase in dividend payout to a minimum of 166.67MH/s per bond (this may increase depending on company expansion).  This not only gives the new investors an increase in dividend payment, but gives greater benefits to the initial and early investors.

I still don't see you figuring in the "Free" additional hashrate as the company expands, which should offset your "share value goes down"

[Vbs]

This installment will add at least 15TH/s to the companies mining operation, and with it will follow an increase in dividend payout to a minimum of 166.67MH/s per bond (this may increase depending on company expansion).  This not only gives the new investors an increase in dividend payment, but gives greater benefits to the initial and early investors.

I still don't see you figuring in the "Free" additional hashrate as the company expands, which should offset your "share value goes down"

Sure! To offset the share price devaluation, the hashrate of each share has to rise in the exact same % as the increase in % of the global bitcoin network hashrate. If the network increases 6x, each share should be 600MH/s. Less than that and it lost value.

Using the 166.67MH/s per share means that the share only devalues after the network hasrate has passed ~250TH*1.6667 = 416.67 TH/s. I'm expecting this in August, with most of 100TH getting online and the Avalon chips shipping en masse.

[Lab_Rat]

I have orders placed going back to Sept with 3 people selling me their gear second hand as soon as they get it (June and July orders)  This total hashrate is in the 2-3TH range I believe...

Who on Earth would sell that much hasrate right now?  This infers 1 of three things...

1) By "buying second hand" you mean you're getting some devices from BFL that you ordered but didn't pay for yet

2) You're buying the devices second hand and paying a ridiculous markup

3) The person you're purchasing the minirigs from is completely retarded and is selling an item they purchased 12 months ago, that they've only just received.

I'm not trying to be aggressive here, I'm just attempting to understand the plan.

also

When will dividends begin to pay?

and...

It's been asked a few times already, but when are you expecting to receive the other 8TH/s from BFL?

I'll take option 3, minus the derogatory terms please.  Some people were planning on running 3MRs at 1500W not 6750W and don't want to run them themselves.

[Lab_Rat]

I will be surprised if even the first 20k are sold, ( the ones already sold are sold "privetly" )

Those that were sold were sold through BitFunder, not privately.  A few were done privately as to prove to Ukto that there was interest in the company.  Thank you btcmonkey and bargraphics for explaining things to people who choose not to read or can't find what I've typed.

[ThickAsThieves]

I will be surprised if even the first 20k are sold, ( the ones already sold are sold "privetly" )

Those that were sold were sold through BitFunder, not privately.  A few were done privately as to prove to Ukto that there was interest in the company.  Thank you btcmonkey and bargraphics for explaining things to people who choose not to read or can't find what I've typed.

1. Do bondholders own the equipment they are paying for?
2. Will there be any transparency for purchase prices? Proof of purchases?
3. Does the company have any assets or experience to justify such a large fundraising effort?
4. What pool will you mine on to prove your work?
5. Why on earth would anyone want to buy into stale BFL orders? Why order from any company that has not demonstrated reliable delivery?
6. When does mining start?
7. What's in it for Lab Rat?

[Lab_Rat]

This installment will add at least 15TH/s to the companies mining operation, and with it will follow an increase in dividend payout to a minimum of 166.67MH/s per bond (this may increase depending on company expansion).  This not only gives the new investors an increase in dividend payment, but gives greater benefits to the initial and early investors.

I still don't see you figuring in the "Free" additional hashrate as the company expands, which should offset your "share value goes down"

Sure! To offset the share price devaluation, the hashrate of each share has to rise in the exact same % as the increase in % of the global bitcoin network hashrate. If the network increases 6x, each share should be 600MH/s. Less than that and it lost value.

Using the 166.67MH/s per share means that the share only devalues after the network hasrate has passed ~250TH*1.6667 = 416.67 TH/s. I'm expecting this in August, with most of 100TH getting online and the Avalon chips shipping en masse.

Please explain to me where having a 4.3BTC share in Asicminer will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time? 4.3BTC / 0.025BTC per share per week = 172 weeks... Why shouldn't LabRatMining bonds be worth the same ridiculous mark-up as Asicminer?  You're missing the point that some people don't want to have to host hardware and want to enjoy the benefits of mining.  I'm not only offering you the benefits of mining, but at a 7 fold rate compared to most other bond issuers.  You have to consider the fact that mining isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.  Don't ever purchase anything looking for it to pay itself off in 2 weeks...

[Factory]

This installment will add at least 15TH/s to the companies mining operation, and with it will follow an increase in dividend payout to a minimum of 166.67MH/s per bond (this may increase depending on company expansion).  This not only gives the new investors an increase in dividend payment, but gives greater benefits to the initial and early investors.

I still don't see you figuring in the "Free" additional hashrate as the company expands, which should offset your "share value goes down"

Sure! To offset the share price devaluation, the hashrate of each share has to rise in the exact same % as the increase in % of the global bitcoin network hashrate. If the network increases 6x, each share should be 600MH/s. Less than that and it lost value.

Using the 166.67MH/s per share means that the share only devalues after the network hasrate has passed ~250TH*1.6667 = 416.67 TH/s. I'm expecting this in August, with most of 100TH getting online and the Avalon chips shipping en masse.

Please explain to me where having a 4.3BTC share in Asicminer will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time? 4.3BTC / 0.025BTC per share per week = 172 weeks... Why shouldn't LabRatMining bonds be worth the same ridiculous mark-up as Asicminer?  You're missing the point that some people don't want to have to host hardware and want to enjoy the benefits of mining.  I'm not only offering you the benefits of mining, but at a 7 fold rate compared to most other bond issuers.  You have to consider the fact that mining isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.  Don't ever purchase anything looking for it to pay itself off in 2 weeks...

ASICMiner shares should not be compared with bonds.

Even if it is appropriate to compare them (which it isn't), saying "they are ridiculously marked-up, so why shouldn't we be?" is a terrible argument.

[ThickAsThieves]

Please explain to me where having a 4.3BTC share in Asicminer will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time? 4.3BTC / 0.025BTC per share per week = 172 weeks... Why shouldn't LabRatMining bonds be worth the same ridiculous mark-up as Asicminer?  You're missing the point that some people don't want to have to host hardware and want to enjoy the benefits of mining.  I'm not only offering you the benefits of mining, but at a 7 fold rate compared to most other bond issuers.  You have to consider the fact that mining isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.  Don't ever purchase anything looking for it to pay itself off in 2 weeks...

AM is not the topic here. Their IPO was at .1, there's no markup to speak of.

Could you answer my questions please?

[SOSLOVE868]

This installment will add at least 15TH/s to the companies mining operation, and with it will follow an increase in dividend payout to a minimum of 166.67MH/s per bond (this may increase depending on company expansion).  This not only gives the new investors an increase in dividend payment, but gives greater benefits to the initial and early investors.

I still don't see you figuring in the "Free" additional hashrate as the company expands, which should offset your "share value goes down"

Sure! To offset the share price devaluation, the hashrate of each share has to rise in the exact same % as the increase in % of the global bitcoin network hashrate. If the network increases 6x, each share should be 600MH/s. Less than that and it lost value.

Using the 166.67MH/s per share means that the share only devalues after the network hasrate has passed ~250TH*1.6667 = 416.67 TH/s. I'm expecting this in August, with most of 100TH getting online and the Avalon chips shipping en masse.

Please explain to me where having a 4.3BTC share in Asicminer will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time? 4.3BTC / 0.025BTC per share per week = 172 weeks... Why shouldn't LabRatMining bonds be worth the same ridiculous mark-up as Asicminer?  You're missing the point that some people don't want to have to host hardware and want to enjoy the benefits of mining.  I'm not only offering you the benefits of mining, but at a 7 fold rate compared to most other bond issuers.  You have to consider the fact that mining isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.  Don't ever purchase anything looking for it to pay itself off in 2 weeks...

Pays dividend today is totally different with pays dividend in the future (especially when the date is unpredictable)

[SOSLOVE868]

I will be surprised if even the first 20k are sold, ( the ones already sold are sold "privetly" )

Those that were sold were sold through BitFunder, not privately.  A few were done privately as to prove to Ukto that there was interest in the company.  Thank you btcmonkey and bargraphics for explaining things to people who choose not to read or can't find what I've typed.

1. Do bondholders own the equipment they are paying for?
2. Will there be any transparency for purchase prices? Proof of purchases?
3. Does the company have any assets or experience to justify such a large fundraising effort?
4. What pool will you mine on to prove your work?
5. Why on earth would anyone want to buy into stale BFL orders? Why order from any company that has not demonstrated reliable delivery?
6. When does mining start?
7. What's in it for Lab Rat?

From any aspect you look at Lab rat ,I think it is much like BFMINE 2.0 ,but with more attractive contracts. both of these two bond contract sharing one attribute which is they all get possibility for return nothing for its investors, because either Bitfury or Metabank could be BFL 2.0.

[MPOE-PR]

Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC

LabRatMining

Official Announcement

Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC, a NJ company, operating under the trade name, LabRatMining is a company that will be operating as a mid to large scale miner for Bitcoins paying out dividends/returns to bondholders.  Each bond in the company represents a portion of the overall hashrate owned and managed by LabRatMining.  LabRatMining plans to expand mining operations to maintain a presence in the mining community for years to come.

Bond Structure – It is intended 100,000 bonds will be sold during the IPO.  These bonds represent the hashrate that these machines produce rather than the hardware itself.  This allows for control of the company without taking mining profits from investors and bondholders.  Future bond offerings of the company will be funded by intended additional sales in increments of 50,000 bonds.

Dividends/Bond Value – Each bond will receive a minimum of 100MH/s* worth of mining profit in dividends/returns (all dividends are intended as contractual returns based on investments and may simply be referred to as dividends for future purposes) on a weekly basis.  The first payout will be at the end of the second full week mining.  If the entire 100,000 bond IPO is not sold immediately, bonds will represent an equivalent portion of the processing power included in the operation at that time.  If it occurs that multiple installments of hardware are required to fulfill the IPO’s expected hardware, the earnings of each installment will begin to be paid out in dividends on the second full week of each installment.  Dividends will be paid out on Saturdays ~12 noon Eastern Time(UTC -0500.)

*Plans for Expansion – It is intended the IPO will result in at least 10TH/s being controlled and paid out by LabRatMining on a weekly basis.  The 10TH/s current estimate is subject to increase depending on the speed at which the IPO is completed allowing for further expansion.

The next installment will be offered up in bonds at the beginning of the week following completion of the IPO.  This set of 50,000 bonds will be put up for sale @0.25BTC/bond or market value +-5% at the time of the bonds being issued, whichever is of greater value.  This installment will add at least 15TH/s to the companies mining operation, and with it will follow an increase in dividend payout to a minimum of 166.67MH/s per bond (this may increase depending on company expansion).  This not only gives the new investors an increase in dividend payment, but gives greater benefits to the initial and early investors.

It is intended the third installment will likely mimic the second installment thereby potentially increasing the company’s total hashrate to 40+TH/s which will in turn bump the dividend payout to 200+MH/s per share.  All the forgoing and following estimates presume a fully sold out bond/contract offering and returns for mining based on certain historical data for returns of similar operations.

It is intended installments in the operation will continue to occur which will provide more value to the company as well as more value to each individual bond as the company matures.  These expansions, if they occur, will likely grow the company and our mining capacity in size which will provide further expanded payouts in the form of dividends (or increased dividends to investors).  It is currently intended a portion of the money the company receives in revenue from bond sales and mining will be used to expand the operation which will further increase dividends per bond.  It is currently intended the company will be adding to the bondholders hashrate on a regular basis as the company expands so one should expect to receive greater dividends than those explained above.

LabRatMining is in no way attached to any hardware manufacturer at this time and has not pledged to continue to host a lone company’s hardware.  If, in due time, LabRatMining decides to become affiliated with a mining hardware producer or begin developing our own technology, we reserve that right.

Initial purchases will be placed with Butterfly Labs, Inc.  We believe they currently have the most efficient hardware hitting the market, but with ever expanding competition, a new company may come to fruition that allows for our company to become more efficient and cost effective.

We are NOT including a forced buyback policy for shares or bonds like that of many other mining companies in an attempt to scam individuals into purchasing hardware for them.  These bonds will be nonrefundable and non-callable.

Why LabRatMining?

LabRatMining is offering bonds at far less cost to bondholders than almost all, if not all bond issuers.  Some are issuing bonds at 7+BTC/GH/s whereas these bonds are being offered initially between 1 and 2BTC/GH/s.  This is three to six times as profitable as AsicMiner’s Block-Erupter USB devices already and it is intended these bonds will increase in hashrate per bond over time as an additional added bonus to the purchasers (although this is not guaranteed).  Lab Rat is providing a great service to those who either can’t host the equipment they would choose to mine with, or would rather not host.  The company and its owners are taking on substantial risk in this investment and managing these devices for an extended period of time.  The company is providing a service that will allow for ~100% up-time by having measures put in place to make sure that HVAC, electricity, Internet, a private pool, and a hosting location are always available for this operation.  The company will be tending to the hardware to keep it clean and running properly.  The company shall be responsible for dealing with hardware manufacturers regarding defective units in the event of a unit failure.
•   The bonds discussed above do not represent traditional bonds, but what are commonly known as PMB’s or Perpetual Mining Bonds.  Another commonly used term is Mining Contracts.  These bonds are not traditional bonds as offered by publicly traded companies. PMB’s are actually private contracts with anticipated returns based on investments into the company.
•   This is an announcement of the company and is not a final binding document regarding the IPO.  IPO terms will be released as the bonds become available for public trade.
•   Some initial investors have been secured, but no money has changed hands at this time or will until further notice.
•   A contract is being drafted to allow for purchase of bonds using USD, rather than BTC, which will be available at the time of release.  In order to initiate such transaction, you will have to contact me via one of the listed available methods.
•   This is a privately held, nonpublicly traded company. This company and the PMB's being offered are not regulated by any governmental entities including the SEC or any other agency or board.
•   Returns on investment are not guaranteed. All investments are speculative, subject to influences beyond the company's control and are nonrefundable unless agreed to by the company.
•   All investments are at the investor’s sole risk. You should not invest in you do not understand the investment.  By purchasing a PMB or Mining Contract you are acknowledging that you understand the investment, accept the risks inherent in any investments, and specifically the risks of this investment.

With the announcement of this company comes my resignation from the position of moderator on the Butterfly Labs Forums to avoid any conflict of interest.  Grnbrg will have to take care of it from here on out.  I will still be around on the forum, but on different terms.

Feel free to contact me via PM on BitcoinTalk or Butterfly Labs forums, by E-mail (rat.in.a.lab@gmail.com or labrat@labratmining.com ), or in any chat I am present with any questions or concerns you may have with me regarding this investment, or the company as a whole, and I will get back to you in a timely manner.

www.labratmining.com

Have a belated see here and then gtfo.

[Factory]

Have a belated see here and then gtfo.

You sir remind me of something, oh ya see here

MPOE-PR isn't trolling- she is being honest. Anyone with any knowledge of the subject should be criticizing the hell out of this lousy offering.

[Vbs]

Please explain to me where having a 4.3BTC share in Asicminer will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time? 4.3BTC / 0.025BTC per share per week = 172 weeks... Why shouldn't LabRatMining bonds be worth the same ridiculous mark-up as Asicminer?  You're missing the point that some people don't want to have to host hardware and want to enjoy the benefits of mining.  I'm not only offering you the benefits of mining, but at a 7 fold rate compared to most other bond issuers.  You have to consider the fact that mining isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.  Don't ever purchase anything looking for it to pay itself off in 2 weeks...

Because Asicminer is not issuing fixed MH/s bonds, they keep adding hardware to maintain a minimum stable network percentage. It's the network percentage represented by each share that guarantees its value, not hashrate. On this scenario, with Asicminer, you have a minimum guarantee that when you want to get out, your shares are worth at least the price you paid for them first.

LabRatMining bonds, on the current terms, are losing network percentage every time the network grows, since they represent a fixed hashrate, so their dividend income and their intrinsic value keeps going down, just like any other offer out there that offers a fixed MH/s per share.

There are cases where fixed MH/s shares can be profitable, depending on the network difficulty rise, as they are most profitable when difficulty is almost steady, so an investor can buy and get more in dividends than the share decreases in value, during a specific time-period.

[Lab_Rat]

I have decided to give the bondholders a nice juicy bonus due to such a wonderful opening sale. For every 20k bonds sold I will guarantee a minimum of a 10MH/s per bond increase.

20k sold 110MH/s
40k sold 120MH/s
60k sold 130MH/s
80k sold 140MH/s
100k sold 150MH/s

Those are minimum hashrates and will likely increase once I get to meet Dave. As if LabRatMining wasn't being competitive enough in the market, just had to make the deal that much better.