WTF Avalon? Ship the Chips!

[jermwerty]

  Hard to believe that people who have been on here so long and witnessed countless scam after scam after scam and still you will send non refundable non traceable anon btc for things months away and think nothing might go wrong ?  It's one thing to say the risk was low and justify why you believed so but to say "nothing can go wrong" with sending 100,000s or even 1,000,000s just boggles my mind.  Then you get hero members scolding everyone "make sure you escrow". ROFL

This is exactly why I was scared of "chip" sales and bought B2/B3 instead.  Sure it was overpriced, but I had ONE point of failure to worry about, not many!  (how many layers of "this could go wrong" do you need to build a working ASIC on the chip sales? too many!)

As others have stated, Avalon runs 3-5months late, chip sales are what 5 weeks delayed now?  You guys still have twice to three times as long to wait  

[1714936402]

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[1714936402]

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[bitcoiner49er]

  Hard to believe that people who have been on here so long and witnessed countless scam after scam after scam and still you will send non refundable non traceable anon btc for things months away and think nothing might go wrong ?  It's one thing to say the risk was low and justify why you believed so but to say "nothing can go wrong" with sending 100,000s or even 1,000,000s just boggles my mind.  Then you get hero members scolding everyone "make sure you escrow". ROFL

This is exactly why I was scared of "chip" sales and bought B2/B3 instead.  Sure it was overpriced, but I had ONE point of failure to worry about, not many!  (how many layers of "this could go wrong" do you need to build a working ASIC on the chip sales? too many!)

As others have stated, Avalon runs 3-5months late, chip sales are what 5 weeks delayed now?  You guys still have twice to three times as long to wait  

Batch one for Zefir was delivered on July 23rd https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177827.msg2790248#msg2790248
They were ordered on April 16th. Yufi's NO Bullsh#t  terms state 9-10 weeks. 10 weeks would've been June 25th, so they were 3-4 weeks late. MAYBE I am ok with this, IF - the other batches were sent with the same "late-ness". Batch 2, 3 were ordered 4 days later. Batch 4, 8 days; batch 5 12 days. Zefir should have had them July 27th, July 31st and today.
Shipping one batch and then holding the rest for no known reason IS BS. If there are problems why isn't Yifu on here saying something? Silence is the answer man; he is deliberately withholding them or he is using them for other ventures. Either way he made a terrible decision.
Personally if he had never sent the 1st batch, I'd be more interested into what problem there could be. But sending the 1st batch and then ......... ? Extremely low-blow.  He will reap what he sows though.

[erk]

Batch one for Zefir was delivered on July 23rd https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177827.msg2790248#msg2790248
They were ordered on April 16th. Yufi's NO Bullsh#t  terms state 9-10 weeks. 10 weeks would've been June 25th, so they were 3-4 weeks late. MAYBE I am ok with this, IF - the other batches were sent with the same "late-ness". Batch 2, 3 were ordered 4 days later. Batch 4, 8 days; batch 5 12 days. Zefir should have had them July 27th, July 31st and today.
Shipping one batch and then holding the rest for no known reason IS BS. If there are problems why isn't Yifu on here saying something? Silence is the answer man; he is deliberately withholding them or he is using them for other ventures. Either way he made a terrible decision.
Personally if he had never sent the 1st batch, I'd be more interested into what problem there could be. But sending the 1st batch and then ......... ? Extremely low-blow.  He will reap what he sows though.

Welcome to the world of pre-orders, in any other market nobody would order, but in the ASIC market, common sense makes way for greed, and so far the greedy are usually disappointed. Hopefully that will get better as more players enter the market and we switch from a pre-order to stock on hand model.

[Bitcoinorama]

Fact is you should all be getting daily updates with lateness. Silence is inexcusable.

[Loredo]

did you misspeak ?  Hard to believe that people who have been on here so long and witnessed countless scam after scam after scam and still you will send non refundable non traceable anon btc for things months away and think nothing might go wrong ?  It's one thing to say the risk was low and justify why you believed so but to say "nothing can go wrong" with sending 100,000s or even 1,000,000s just boggles my mind.  Then you get hero members scolding everyone "make sure you escrow". ROFL

IMO, banging down on the group-buy promoters is a little bit shoot-the-messenger.

Remember when the BFL chips first appeared, and one guy tried to hold BFL's feet to the fire with regard to payment and delivery, with cancellation if they were late?  He was getting some traction with BFL, too, because they probably thought the well was poisoned enough that maybe they'd have to go that way.

Then, some other guys offered to do conventional buys, which would save a couple days if everything went on schedule,  accepting the whole pre-order, trust-us-see-ya-in-100-days shuffle, and enough people signed up to get the orders to go.

The first guy disappeared;  BFL didn't have to honor any of those terms, so why should they?

Now when BFL is late on chip delivery, should the poor innocent wronged chip buyers gang up on the guys who organized their group buys?  Maybe, but first they should take a bit of one of their remaining bitcoins and go buy a mirror.

[SebastianJu]

did you misspeak ?  Hard to believe that people who have been on here so long and witnessed countless scam after scam after scam and still you will send non refundable non traceable anon btc for things months away and think nothing might go wrong ?  It's one thing to say the risk was low and justify why you believed so but to say "nothing can go wrong" with sending 100,000s or even 1,000,000s just boggles my mind.  Then you get hero members scolding everyone "make sure you escrow". ROFL

I wrote "nothing can go wrong" compared to other things like miner production. Normally this should be clear... except one wants to find a reason to argue. And Avalon going scammy is not the first thing you think about when investing since nothing more had to be done than ordering more of the same chips in the foundry and ship them to the customer. So no, i did not speak about the potential risk that yifu decides to cut future gains only for a short term win. Would you do this really at his place?
I spoke about the things that have to happen until the chips are here. The chips are proven to work, there were many created before already and so Avalon knows quite good how long it takes to get them. There are no construction problems or similar at avalon. And TSMC is a real pro foundry, they will create when they say they will.

Let me say you this... i once invested in another bitcoin venture and it turned out very well. So well i live from it easily now. All your rants about the stupid people that use bitcoins instead paypal that can be charged back... its fine for me. Use paypal if you wish. But others might see the advantages in bitcoin and they might invest and win. Its not said that every investment will be the super win of course, thats how it goes. But that doesnt mean that i wont fight ok?

Seb I really, really hope you didn't invest all your money man.

Please tell me that ain't so.

And for anyone else planning to put it all on one horse. Don't. Ever. Ever, ever.

Even if you could buy in hand today, you're still relying on a return in the future. You are in essence paying ahead of time to make a return even further in the future. An uncertain future.

Dont worry... i wrote i invested all and that means only bitcoins i got as a reward and more bitcoins from a previous investment i spoke above. And i stated it to tell the bitcoin-troll that i have much invested in the chips too. I have enough to live and wont suffer because of that. But i will not give up at this point and watch like Yifu kills the hopes of so many people. I mean its not only the chip buyers, there are so many assemblers and miner developers that invested huge amounts of time and money to make a business out of this. And now Yifu with his stupid waiting politics kills slowly all of this. I really dont want see this happen.

[Loredo]

Yifu kills the hopes of so many people. I mean its not only the chip buyers, there are so many assemblers and miner developers that invested huge amounts of time and money to make a business out of this. And now Yifu with his stupid waiting politics kills slowly all of this. I really dont want see this happen.

Sir, I cannot agree with you more. 

That's is the real tragedy of this, and the source of my contempt -and that's the kindest word I can draw up- for this slug of a person.

[Bitcoinorama]

I have to agree in that there were really cool cottage industries being born out of this. That's true decentralisation and economic growth.

I was looking forward to seeing crazy cool custom cases and rigs. Like a fish tank, or a mame arcade mining cabinet, or some other such badassness that kookie talented DIY types pull out of the bag.

The fact is they knew their profit margins were less than that of a bespoke chip company, but they wanted to hack and share the love. These weren't units that would up housed in a hosting facility for the large part, they were going to be situated in people's houses and garages.

Genuinely people had dreams and ambition behind this

[-Redacted-]

Hopefully Bitburner or BKKCoins or one of the other devs will start on a standalone Bitfury chip based board in the near future.  (Or possibly even license c-scapes standalone ethernet version and run with it...)

[erk]

Hopefully Bitburner or BKKCoins or one of the other devs will start on a standalone Bitfury chip based board in the near future.  (Or possibly even license c-scapes standalone ethernet version and run with it...)

Yeah well, if Avalon proves to be an unreliable supplier, then I am sure the DIY board devs wont want to keep working with their chips for long. Is it so hard to ship chips? Not like you are waiting for any other parts from suppliers. Perhaps they ran out of cardboard boxes and packing tape?

[Ytterbium]

Remember when the BFL chips first appeared, and one guy tried to hold BFL's feet to the fire with regard to payment and delivery, with cancellation if they were late?  He was getting some traction with BFL, too, because they probably thought the well was poisoned enough that maybe they'd have to go that way.

When are BFL's chips supposed to arrive anyway? I saw some guy advertising a custom BFL board sale, his terms didn't include anything about an expected delivery date.

[Bitcoinorama]

Remember when the BFL chips first appeared, and one guy tried to hold BFL's feet to the fire with regard to payment and delivery, with cancellation if they were late?  He was getting some traction with BFL, too, because they probably thought the well was poisoned enough that maybe they'd have to go that way.

When are BFL's chips supposed to arrive anyway? I saw some guy advertising a custom BFL board sale, his terms didn't include anything about an expected delivery date.

Terms of purchase:



Delivery:  100 days

Payment:  50% deposit on order and 50% upon delivery

Cancellation:  All sales are final and deposits will not be returned if final payment is not made prior to delivery.

Minimum purchase:  100 chips

[MilkyLep]

Good to see that chip update Yifu!

/s

[metal_jacke1]

Asset Retrieval is not entirely out of the question. Namely one if you file a civil suit claiming fraud (criminal) you can go after this guys personal assets and the corporate veil would be made meaningless. From what I understand a criminal act (in this case fraud) would in sense lift any protections an LLC would provide to the members.

Well, if there's a $200 million dollar investment the question is moot, as they can easily settle any lawsuits.

However, the point I was making is that you can't seize bitcoin unless someone hands over their crypto key or agrees to make a transaction.  A judge can order them to do it, and they can simply skip the country and refuse if they want.

People talking about suing bitcoin businesses are missing a key aspect of bitcoin. unlike traditional currency and property you can't just file a lein on their property or garnish their wages/bank accounts.

Well it all depends on the Court's definition of property. "The Guardian of Every Other Right" a good book on private property rights, it's evolution and cases.

[Ytterbium]

I wonder if there's some kind of internal disarray inside Avalon.  Maybe the guy with the key to the chip warehouse left. Maybe someone stole the chips. Maybe someone ran off with the bitcoin and now they don't have any money to pay for people to re-ship their chips.

Well it all depends on the Court's definition of property. "The Guardian of Every Other Right" a good book on private property rights, it's evolution and cases.

No. It doesn't matter what the court thinks or doesn't think. Bitcoin can't be taken, by anyone, without the private key. Which the court doesn't have, unless you give it to them.

[User705]

did you misspeak ?  Hard to believe that people who have been on here so long and witnessed countless scam after scam after scam and still you will send non refundable non traceable anon btc for things months away and think nothing might go wrong ?  It's one thing to say the risk was low and justify why you believed so but to say "nothing can go wrong" with sending 100,000s or even 1,000,000s just boggles my mind.  Then you get hero members scolding everyone "make sure you escrow". ROFL

I wrote "nothing can go wrong" compared to other things like miner production. Normally this should be clear... except one wants to find a reason to argue. And Avalon going scammy is not the first thing you think about when investing since nothing more had to be done than ordering more of the same chips in the foundry and ship them to the customer. So no, i did not speak about the potential risk that yifu decides to cut future gains only for a short term win. Would you do this really at his place?
I spoke about the things that have to happen until the chips are here. The chips are proven to work, there were many created before already and so Avalon knows quite good how long it takes to get them. There are no construction problems or similar at avalon. And TSMC is a real pro foundry, they will create when they say they will.

Let me say you this... i once invested in another bitcoin venture and it turned out very well. So well i live from it easily now. All your rants about the stupid people that use bitcoins instead paypal that can be charged back... its fine for me. Use paypal if you wish. But others might see the advantages in bitcoin and they might invest and win. Its not said that every investment will be the super win of course, thats how it goes. But that doesnt mean that i wont fight ok?

I'm not trolling or arguing with you but I'm sorry when you send BTC the number one concern should be will you get what you are paying for and if anyone it's hero members who should remind others about that.  If Avalon folds up will you be covering anyones loses since you state you are doing so well?  Probably not, so Avalon took a free ride on the back of your good reputation.  I see plenty of advantages in bitcoin but this deal is not an "investment" it's just buying mining gear much like people were buying video cards before.  I wish everyone luck but I think anyone who is talking about this like it's some sort of "investment" is way off.  Even you say "might win" and winning is for lotteries not investments.  ASICminer USB has been reduced in price by 75% already.  True fiat costs of these ASIC chips is very low and eventually the sales price for them must reach that low point where electricity will be 75%-90% of your bitcoin production costs because as long as electricity isn't higher they will be profitable to make sell and run.  That's a very long road ahead and there will be lots and lots of companies running with the BTC until the market gets there.  Be careful when "investing".

[Bicknellski]

Fact is you should all be getting daily updates with lateness. Silence is inexcusable.

Oui Oui +1

[Stack]

did you misspeak ?  Hard to believe that people who have been on here so long and witnessed countless scam after scam after scam and still you will send non refundable non traceable anon btc for things months away and think nothing might go wrong ?  It's one thing to say the risk was low and justify why you believed so but to say "nothing can go wrong" with sending 100,000s or even 1,000,000s just boggles my mind.  Then you get hero members scolding everyone "make sure you escrow". ROFL

I wrote "nothing can go wrong" compared to other things like miner production. Normally this should be clear... except one wants to find a reason to argue. And Avalon going scammy is not the first thing you think about when investing since nothing more had to be done than ordering more of the same chips in the foundry and ship them to the customer. So no, i did not speak about the potential risk that yifu decides to cut future gains only for a short term win. Would you do this really at his place?
I spoke about the things that have to happen until the chips are here. The chips are proven to work, there were many created before already and so Avalon knows quite good how long it takes to get them. There are no construction problems or similar at avalon. And TSMC is a real pro foundry, they will create when they say they will.

Let me say you this... i once invested in another bitcoin venture and it turned out very well. So well i live from it easily now. All your rants about the stupid people that use bitcoins instead paypal that can be charged back... its fine for me. Use paypal if you wish. But others might see the advantages in bitcoin and they might invest and win. Its not said that every investment will be the super win of course, thats how it goes. But that doesnt mean that i wont fight ok?

I'm not trolling or arguing with you but I'm sorry when you send BTC the number one concern should be will you get what you are paying for and if anyone it's hero members who should remind others about that.  If Avalon folds up will you be covering anyones loses since you state you are doing so well?  Probably not, so Avalon took a free ride on the back of your good reputation.  I see plenty of advantages in bitcoin but this deal is not an "investment" it's just buying mining gear much like people were buying video cards before.  I wish everyone luck but I think anyone who is talking about this like it's some sort of "investment" is way off.  Even you say "might win" and winning is for lotteries not investments.  ASICminer USB has been reduced in price by 75% already.  True fiat costs of these ASIC chips is very low and eventually the sales price for them must reach that low point where electricity will be 75%-90% of your bitcoin production costs because as long as electricity isn't higher they will be profitable to make sell and run.  That's a very long road ahead and there will be lots and lots of companies running with the BTC until the market gets there.  Be careful when "investing".

If we use your definition, buying shares of a company is not an investment.

[bitcoiner49er]

Dont worry... i wrote i invested all and that means only bitcoins i got as a reward and more bitcoins from a previous investment i spoke above. And i stated it to tell the bitcoin-troll that i have much invested in the chips too. I have enough to live and wont suffer because of that. But i will not give up at this point and watch like Yifu kills the hopes of so many people. I mean its not only the chip buyers, there are so many assemblers and miner developers that invested huge amounts of time and money to make a business out of this. And now Yifu with his stupid waiting politics kills slowly all of this. I really dont want see this happen.

This is the crux of the whole deal. Sure there are some looking to get bitcoin via the chips/miners. But there is a whole lot more involved, as you said. The whole spirit of individual thinking and the different avenues that were being developed are great. Now, what happens to them? Personally I want to encourage everyone that has/had plans for Avalon based miners to keep working to develop your products. Eventually someone with integrity and the balls to use it will step forward.

[Loredo]

If we use your definition, buying shares of a company is not an investment.

The most meaningful way to characterize an economic contract is by its payoff profile.  This avoids semantics and issues of securities law and regulation.

If you want to characterize a pre-order in this method, it has the payoff profile of a loan, or of the security type "bond".  If the company performs its contract, you receive an agreed-upon value; no more, and no less.  If the company defaults, you get some recovery value, which in these cases almost certainly would be zero.

So, I think it's perfectly fine to call a pre-order an "investment."  We just have to be careful to not confuse that with equity investments, which are stakes in the company's future.