HashFast launches sales of the Baby Jet

[RoadStress]

Silicon Wafer Fabbed Out Successfully
The silicon wafers have completed fabrication. The silicon is the core of the chip, and the complicated etching process that creates the circuitry on the silicon is finished. Now the process is starting of taking this silicon, with its complete circuits, and packaging it into finished chips. The wafers are en route to San Jose, where they will be cut into individual die. We’ll get photos for you soon.

HashFast why couldn't you post pictures of the PCBs and now you promise pictures with the chip. You have an NDA for posting PCB pictures, but you don't have for the chips?

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[cedivad]

HashFast why couldn't you post pictures of the PCBs and now you promise pictures with the chip. You have an NDA for posting PCB pictures, but you don't have for the chips?

They don't have such an NDA, come one! They said that such (non-existent) NDA, is covered by an NDA itself that denies them from showing the points of the NDA to the public.

If this is not tragicomic, i don't know what it is.

[MrTeal]

So on January 28th, everyone in Batch 1 will receive 4 more modules if I understand this correctly.

Yeah I can't see how difficulty combined with late start will result in more than a 25% return of purchase price by end of Jan (a return of less than 25% of purchase price is needed for the max MPP compensation).  I mean even if difficulty growth slows down significantly it seems very likely.  Of course if the return is higher by end of Jan then less boards will be issued by the MPP but I don't see that happening.

If they ship mid-December but start the MPP on Oct 31, that essentially means that between mid-late December and Jan 29th (let's say 40 days) you would need to earn back 25% of the purchase price. Even at the current difficulty a 400GH/s Babyjet would generate 0.3937 BTC/day, or 15.748BTC. That's already almost 25% the cost of the Babyjet.

BTW - It will be interesting to see how they implement it. They are saying the MPP program will start Oct 31st even though they're delayed, but this is the example from their website.

Example 2 – You buy a Baby Jet for 50 BTC, and we ship it on October 25th.  January 23, 2014 comes and goes, and it turns out that at the Baby Jet’s nominal hashrate, it would only have generated 25 BTC during that 90 day period.  Calculated out, it would have taken an additional 400 Ghash/s of capacity shipped with your Baby Jet on October 25, 2013 to generate 50 BTC. We can’t go back in time to give you that 400Ghash/s. Instead, HashFast will double that and give you 800 Ghash/s in additional capacity. In this example, HashFast will give you two additional Golden Nonce ASICs, each with 400 nominal GHash/s.

Ignoring the Oct 25th to Oct 31st difference, if that scenario played out and at the end of January HF sends out one extra module because hey, a BabyJet would have earned 25BTC between Oct 31st and Jan 29th they will have a lot of pissed off customers.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Ignoring the Oct 25th to Oct 31st difference, if that scenario played out and at the end of January HF sends out one extra module because hey, a BabyJet would have earned 25BTC between Oct 31st and Jan 29th they will have a lot of pissed off customers.

The calculation for how much you have earned is based on the shipping date.  By the letter of the program it is the first 90 days after shipping, that would mean if it ships 30 days late your MPP window is also extended 30 days which obviously makes the program a worse deal.  Essentially customers are hurt by late shipping and then their compensation is also reduced.  Many people complained it would be fairer if the MPP began when the units should have shipped so customers are not double penalized for late delivery.  Thankfully HashFast seems to have agreed with that logic so the 90 day window starts on 31 OCT.  Obviously for the days from 31 OCT to shipping date the computed revenue would be 0.  You have 0 GH/s and 0 GH/s at any difficulty = 0 BTC produced.    

So the MPP "payout" is based on the total of what a theoretical unit would earn each day between shipping and 28 JAN (90 days after 31 OCT).

They way I read it (and I may be wrong) if you units ships on say 15 DEC and between 15 DEC and 28 JAN you earn*:
>= 100% of purchase price = no additional boards (achieved break even in 90 day window)
>= 66% & <100% of purchase price = 1 additional board (200 additional GH/s needed for break even x2 = 400 GH/s)
>= 50% & <66% of purchase price = 2 additional boards (400 additional GH/s needed for break even x2 = 800 GH/s)
>= 33% & <50% of purchase price = 3 additional boards (600 additional GH/s needed for break even x2 = 1,200 GH/s)
< 33% of purchase price  = 4 additional boards (600 additional GH/s needed for break even x2 = 1,200 GH/s)

On edit: My original numbers were incorrect.  Thanks for the correction minor. The MPP "pays out" DOUBLE the hashrate that would have been required to break even in 90 day window.  I updated numbers above.

I assumed that Hashfast will only pay out in "full board increments" and will round in the customer's favor as less boards won't fulfill the terms of MPP (i.e. if 127 more GH/s would have achieved break even, doubled is 254 GH/s.  Since HF only produces 400 GH/s boards the only options are ship nothing or ship one board).  The cutoffs above assume the number of boards will be rounded up in the customers favor.  Also remember HashFast isn't going to monitor you individual rig.  It is simply a calculated earning.  For a given hashrate & difficulty a miner will earn x BTC per day.  The sum of those earnings over the 90 day window determines the computed earnings and thus the amount of MPP payout.

Maybe Hashfast can confirm or correct me on this.

[Bargraphics]

Ignoring the Oct 25th to Oct 31st difference, if that scenario played out and at the end of January HF sends out one extra module because hey, a BabyJet would have earned 25BTC between Oct 31st and Jan 29th they will have a lot of pissed off customers.

The calculation for how much you have earned is based on the shipping date.  By the letter of the program it is the first 90 days, that would mean if it ships 30 days late your MPP window is also extended 30 days which obviously makes the program a worse deal.  Many people complained it would be fairer if the MPP began when the units should have shipped so customers are not double penalized for late delivery.  HashFast seems to have agreed. 

Still the earnings are based on when what a shipped unit would earn each day up to 28 JAN.

They way I read it (and I may be wrong) if your unit ended up costing 50 BTC, they ship it on say 15 DEC and between 15 DEC and 28 JAN you earn*:
> 50 BTC = no additional boards
> 25 BTC & <50 BTC = 1 additional board
> 16.7.5 BTC & <=25 BTC = 2 additional boards
> 12.5 BTC & <16.7 BTC = 3 additional boards
<= 12.5 BTC = 4 additional boards

Maybe Hashfast can confirm or correct me.

* "you earn" is based on the value of daily value of 400 GH/s (like using a mining calculator but looking backwards) not your actual mining which may be more or less (luck, downtime, pool problems, unit gets stolen, etc).

400GH earns - ~0.39 BTC per day at current difficulty. In the 47 Days from 15 DEC to 28 JAN at TODAY'S difficulty you would make ~18.5 BTC

It should be safe to assume that by Mid December the difficulty should be up quite a bit more, I think 4 boards should be expected.

[tacotime]

Ignoring the Oct 25th to Oct 31st difference, if that scenario played out and at the end of January HF sends out one extra module because hey, a BabyJet would have earned 25BTC between Oct 31st and Jan 29th they will have a lot of pissed off customers.

The calculation for how much you have earned is based on the shipping date.  By the letter of the program it is the first 90 days, that would mean if it ships 30 days late your MPP window is also extended 30 days which obviously makes the program a worse deal.  Many people complained it would be fairer if the MPP began when the units should have shipped so customers are not double penalized for late delivery.  HashFast seems to have agreed.  

Still the earnings are based on when what a shipped unit would earn each day up to 28 JAN.

They way I read it (and I may be wrong) if your unit ended up costing 50 BTC, they ship it on say 15 DEC and between 15 DEC and 28 JAN you earn*:
> 50 BTC = no additional boards
> 25 BTC & <50 BTC = 1 additional board
> 16.7.5 BTC & <=25 BTC = 2 additional boards
> 12.5 BTC & <16.7 BTC = 3 additional boards
<= 12.5 BTC = 4 additional boards

Maybe Hashfast can confirm or correct me.

* "you earn" is based on the value of daily value of 400 GH/s (like using a mining calculator but looking backwards) not your actual mining which may be more or less (luck, downtime, pool problems, unit gets stolen, etc).

As far as I understand: it's 90 days after the shipping date, so if they shipped on Dec 15 MPP would kick in on March 15-ish (didn't check to see if that's actualy 90 days) if you haven't ROI'd the value of BTC you used to pay for it.  As to how they calculate the number of additional units they send to you, I have no idea, but I'll drop them an e-mail for you.

[DeathAndTaxes]

As far as I understand: it's 90 days after the shipping date, so if they shipped on Dec 15 MPP would kick in on March 15 if you haven't ROI'd the value of BTC you used to pay for it.  As to how they calculate the number of additional units they send to you, I have no idea, but I'll drop them an e-mail for you.

Hashfast clarified today that the MPP begins on 30 OCT for Batch 1.

HashFast Production Update
Miner Protection Program
For those of you covered under the Miner Protection Program™ (https://hashfast.com/miner-protection-program/), this delay will not affect the starting point from which benefits are calculated. For First Batch Baby Jets, the start date of the program will be retroactive to October 30th. We want to make sure a delayed ship date does not reduce the value of the program.[/quote]

[DeathAndTaxes]

400GH earns - ~0.39 BTC per day at current difficulty. In the 47 Days from 15 DEC to 28 JAN at TODAY'S difficulty you would make ~18.5 BTC

It should be safe to assume that by Mid December the difficulty should be up quite a bit more, I think 4 boards should be expected.

I agree I just thought I would cover the bases so on the miracle chance it ends up higher than someone doesn't say "D&T that liar he said we would guaranteed get 4 extra boards".   I would bet money it end up being 4 boards shipped per original board for the MPP at least for Batch 1.  Batch 2 & 3 well that might be a little different depending on when they actually ship.

[tacotime]

As far as I understand: it's 90 days after the shipping date, so if they shipped on Dec 15 MPP would kick in on March 15 if you haven't ROI'd the value of BTC you used to pay for it.  As to how they calculate the number of additional units they send to you, I have no idea, but I'll drop them an e-mail for you.

Hashfast clarified today that the MPP begins on 30 OCT.

HashFast Production Update
Miner Protection Program
For those of you covered under the Miner Protection Program™ (https://hashfast.com/miner-protection-program/), this delay will not affect the starting point from which benefits are calculated. For First Batch Baby Jets, the start date of the program will be retroactive to October 30th. We want to make sure a delayed ship date does not reduce the value of the program.

[/quote]

Ah, okay, sorry, I'm just getting home... I guess this is bad news for the people who bought Batch 2 with MPP.

I'll run this by my contact and see if she can confirm everyone is on the same page

[DeathAndTaxes]

Ah, okay, sorry, I'm just getting home... I guess this is bad news for the people who bought Batch 2 with MPP.

I'll run this by my contact and see if she can confirm everyone is on the same page

Well it depends on when Batch 2 ships.  Remember Batch 1 was much cheaper even with MPP.  Batch 1 is going to ship at least 6 weeks late so making the MPP retroactive isn't some huge windfall but more the least they could do.   If Batch 2 is heavily delayed as well then they may be worse off but if they ship on time or right after Batch 1 they may even come out ahead.

[Paladin69]

KnC dominated with a 70% total hashrate increase for October.  KnC November begins soon to take it up more.

BitFury's next round of chips will be in even greater quantity than their first offering to add to the hashrate ponzi.

Bad news for Baby Fap's.  People should take their refunds after December 28th.  I feel sorry for Batch 2 & Batch 3.  Yikes.  That is many difficulty changes away.

[Syke]

<= 12.5 BTC = 4 additional boards

I don't see how anyone will break even, even with a 4-module MPP delivery 90 days later.

[cedivad]

<= 12.5 BTC = 4 additional boards

I don't see how anyone will break even, even with a 4-module MPP delivery 90 days later.

And you are right.
But it's always better than having the BJ the 30 of December and the MPP somewhere in april.
We went from 20 to 30% of roi in my fooled mind. It's not that bad.

[kaerf]

If MPP is going to kick in Feb 1st...HashFast needs to stockpile their hardware and stop taking orders for late January delivery. Chinese New Year is Jan 31st. Ideally, HashFast would have everything ready to ship by early January otherwise there will be significant additional delays. Get your shit together.

[cedivad]

If MPP is going to kick in Feb 1st...HashFast needs to stockpile their hardware and stop taking orders for late January delivery. Chinese New Year is Jan 31st. Ideally, HashFast would have everything ready to ship by early January otherwise there will be significant additional delays. Get your shit together.

There is no deadline for when they have to ship the MPP. This could be the biggest problem as of now.

[perezoso]

<= 12.5 BTC = 4 additional boards

I don't see how anyone will break even, even with a 4-module MPP delivery 90 days later.

I wouldn't put the limit for Batch 1 customers at 4 modules.  Hashfast is in a complex situation for sure, but the MPP's underlying pledge is cost recovery in 90 days.  Yes, there is verbiage about "up to 400%", but that should be contextualized bearing in mind the promise to double any shortfall in hashpower.***

At the point that the MPP kicks in, if Hashfast remains a viable entity (and I certainly hope it does), the boards themselves won't be costing them a hell of a lot. I sure hope they are upping their orders now.

So when late January rolls around, I think that rather being in the position of having dragged their first customers through this painful process for months, only to have the MPP not achieve ROI and have us screaming bloody murder at precisely the time that they finally will probably have significant hardware in hand to sell, the decent and relatively painless thing to do, if necessary, will be to quickly toss in additional boards so that people at least break even.  

It's kind of death or glory for them.  If the MPP fails, they are BFL 2.0.  If they do what it takes for the MPP to at least leave its customers breaking even, they go down as the good guys that protected their early customers through an incredibly turbulent time.  Earned goodwill.  Imagine that.

And they will probably hew as close as humanly possible to promised delivery date on non-MPP Batch 2+ orders, because who can fault them for the network hashrate?  Those machines were bought wholly at-risk and, if delivered on time, nobody can reasonably consider them not achieving ROI to be Hashfast's fault.

Goes without saying that the MPP is dead for future sales.  I also think they will exit presales ASAP.

Basically, as I see it, the MPP customers are now going to form a pretty special class of 'stakeholders' in Hashfast.  Although I think we should remain wary, instead of bashing them, we should really hope they make it, because I think they will make us whole if they survive.


***  From Hashfast MPP page: "You buy a Baby Jet for 50 BTC, and we ship it on October 25th.  January 23, 2014 comes and goes, and it turns out that at the Baby Jet’s nominal hashrate, it would only have generated 25 BTC during that 90 day period.  Calculated out, it would have taken an additional 400 Ghash/s of capacity shipped with your Baby Jet on October 25, 2013 to generate 50 BTC. We can’t go back in time to give you that 400Ghash/s. Instead, HashFast will double that and give you 800 Ghash/s in additional capacity. In this example, HashFast will give you two additional Golden Nonce ASICs, each with 400 nominal GHash/s."

[Wesly]

I wouldn't put the limit for Batch 1 customers at 4 modules.  Hashfast is in a complex situation for sure, but the MPP's underlying pledge is cost recovery in 90 days.  Yes, there is verbiage about "up to 400%", but that should be contextualized bearing in mind the promise to double any shortfall in hashpower.***

At the point that the MPP kicks in, if Hashfast remains a viable entity (and I certainly hope it does), the boards themselves won't be costing them a hell of a lot. I sure hope they are upping their orders now.

So when late January rolls around, I think that rather being in the position of having dragged their first customers through this painful process for months, only to have the MPP not achieve ROI and have us screaming bloody murder at precisely the time that they finally will probably have significant hardware in hand to sell, the decent and relatively painless thing to do, if necessary, will be to quickly toss in additional boards so that people at least break even.  

It's kind of death or glory for them.  If the MPP fails, they are BFL 2.0.  If they do what it takes for the MPP to at least leave its customers breaking even, they go down as the good guys that protected their early customers through an incredibly turbulent time.  Earned goodwill.  Imagine that.

And they will probably hew as close as humanly possible to promised delivery date on non-MPP Batch 2+ orders, because who can fault them for the network hashrate?  Those machines were bought wholly at-risk and, if delivered on time, nobody can reasonably consider them not achieving ROI to be Hashfast's fault.

Goes without saying that the MPP is dead for future sales.  I also think they will exit presales ASAP.

Basically, as I see it, the MPP customers are now going to form a pretty special class of 'stakeholders' in Hashfast.  Although I think we should remain wary, instead of bashing them, we should really hope they make it, because I think they will make us whole if they survive.


***  From Hashfast MPP page: "You buy a Baby Jet for 50 BTC, and we ship it on October 25th.  January 23, 2014 comes and goes, and it turns out that at the Baby Jet’s nominal hashrate, it would only have generated 25 BTC during that 90 day period.  Calculated out, it would have taken an additional 400 Ghash/s of capacity shipped with your Baby Jet on October 25, 2013 to generate 50 BTC. We can’t go back in time to give you that 400Ghash/s. Instead, HashFast will double that and give you 800 Ghash/s in additional capacity. In this example, HashFast will give you two additional Golden Nonce ASICs, each with 400 nominal GHash/s."

              

BFL 2.0?  Seriously?  I didn't know BFL is dead already?  Didn't they just receive $1 million downpayment for a big commerical order?  I guess that's not good enough in your eyes.  BFL 1.0 screwed at least 10x as many customers and 10x the delay as HF aka BFL 2.0  But yet I don't see people stop buying from BFL despite their undeniable worst ASIC company reputation.  Point is, it doesn't matter if HashFast "take" care of their Batch 1 MPP customers because if they have got a real product to sell at a competitive price, new customers (and even some old ones) will continue to buy from them.

[perezoso]

BFL 2.0?  Seriously?  I didn't know BFL is dead already?  Didn't they just receive $1 million downpayment for a big commerical order?  I guess that's not good enough in your eyes.  BFL 1.0 screwed at least 10x as many customers and 10x the delay as HF aka BFL 2.0  But yet I don't see people stop buying from BFL despite their undeniable worst ASIC company reputation.  Point is, it doesn't matter if HashFast "take" care of their Batch 1 MPP customers because if they have got a real product to sell at a competitive price, new customers (and even some old ones) will continue to buy from them.

Well, call me old-fashioned and naive, but my impression is that the folks at Hashfast have more moral fiber, more mature personal goals, and most importantly, more self-respect than Josh, and I think that matters.

People were essentially blindsided by BFL's perfidy - no experience with dishonesty on the BFL scale before.  They didn't know what to do, especially the arrested development libertardian geek types who can't reason well enough to wipe their own behinds.

Check the other thread for people, already burned once, rushing to man the barricades to sue HF.  If HF fails on the MPP, some of that won't be just idle threat. People have learned, the community has learned, through experience.

Hell, I haven't mentioned this before, because it's totally not my frame of mind.  But for one thing, if Hashfast screws its MPP buyers, they'd have me to deal with. I f@ck with companies and large institutions for a living... done it professionally for 20 years. Companies a lot bigger than Hashfast, and projects with a dollar value mucho más grande que US $3m worth of ASIC hardware. You win some and you lose some, but I can f'n guarantee you that I'd cause them public relations and legal pain. Not cheap show-grousing on an internet forum.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to need to do that.  BFL kind of assholery won't go on.  To survive, if the whole model of the citizen-miner survives, these companies are going to have to do things differently and develop non-hateful relationships with their customers.  KnC seems to be leading the way. HF is working to follow. At least that's my bet.

[Minor]

To survive, if the whole model of the citizen-miner survives, these companies are going to have to do things differently and develop non-hateful relationships with their customers.  KnC seems to be leading the way. HF is working to follow. At least that's my bet.

The road to customer goodwill for Hashfast seems pretty clear to me:

1) Offer full refunds to batch 1 customers.
2) Ship Batch 2 order (and following batches) on time (thanks to not having to ship 5x the batch 1 orders because of the MPP).

That way batch 2 and following get their equipment on time, if they don't get a good ROI, they have only themselves to blame.
Batch 1 customer should be ecstatic of not having lost 50%+ of their money. (Even with the MPP I expect the ROI to be less than 50% for batch 1 customers.)

BTW you only need to achieve less than 33% of your cost to get the 4x hashing power (not less than 25%):
***  From Hashfast MPP page:

You buy a Baby Jet for 50 BTC, and we ship it on October 25th.  January 23, 2014 comes and goes, and it turns out that at the Baby Jet’s nominal hashrate, it would only have generated 25 BTC during that 90 day period.  Calculated out, it would have taken an additional 400 Ghash/s of capacity shipped with your Baby Jet on October 25, 2013 to generate 50 BTC. We can’t go back in time to give you that 400Ghash/s. Instead, HashFast will double that and give you 800 Ghash/s in additional capacity.

So if you achieve 33% or less, it would have taken an extra 2x the hashing power to break even, so they double that and send you an extra 4x.
I'm surprised D&T didn't catch that, he/she/it  is usually good with numbers and details.

[itod]

To survive, if the whole model of the citizen-miner survives, these companies are going to have to do things differently and develop non-hateful relationships with their customers.  KnC seems to be leading the way. HF is working to follow. At least that's my bet.

The road to customer goodwill for Hashfast seems pretty clear to me:

1) Offer full refunds to batch 1 customers.
...

They may as well do that and many on this thread would be surprised with the results. Accepting the refund means you are giving up additional 2TH for free on Feb 1st. Good luck buying those 2TH with refunded BTC for less, considering end of Jan/beginning of Feb delivery. Maybe the refund is safer way, but I bet many people would not accept refunds. They bought miners in the first place because they don't want BTC sitting in their wallets. Announcing MPP starts Oct 30th changed many things.